Lindens Statements from Governance Meeting

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

The chat was going crazy. 

There were one or two really and truly rude and obnoxious people there that forced me briefly to reconsider my feelings about violence and children . . .

YOU on the other hand were brilliant. You were well informed, not pushy or overly noisy, and in general a voice of reason. So thank you from ALL of us for that.

[Arwyn Quandry]

The requirement of baked on perma-undies on all under 18s is going to present some real problems for teen avatars. They mostly use adult skins. Are adult skinmakers going to have to start including perma-undie versions on all of their body skins? Is that even likely? I wish I knew some to ask.

[CaerolleClaudel]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Most of the push back I'm seeing at the moment is about nonbinary, furry, and fairies. Things, in fact, that really didn't get a full discussion in previous threads, and that are going to be difficult and contentious.

Also someone asking that "extreme violence" be now permitted on Moderate regions so that kids can participate in combat RP. Which I'd sure as hell fight. And also, kids in gory, violent combat RP? WTF?

Sounds like a USian question to me... 🙄

[Arwyn Quandry]

29 minutes ago, Kaia Sachin said:

So it sounds like people who are using adult bodies to roleplay tweens/teens are going to need to buy body skins that have the modesty layers baked into them as well. If creators don't make skins with modesty layers for the adult bodies, then the people who are roleplaying as teens are going to be need to use a mesh child avatar body instead. Then child content creators will need to start making clothes for that age group, since it would be weird for them to wear the type of clothes that are available for child avatars.

An interesting point to add to this: Pretty much all of the popular kid bodies are made for toddler-age kids. There's only one kid body I know of that has a breast option for older tween girls - and the maker of that body is part of the whole kerfuffle that kicked these changes off in the first place. The options just don't exist, especially if you're trying to avoid buying from that person.

[Qie Niangao]

Two things look really encouraging:

• Kiera's response about how existing content can be used with BoM layers and alpha. (Not crazy about the all-caps "TEMPORARILY"; it still suggests they think "not removable" actually means something, but migrating future content to comply automatically will mean something GRADUALLY.)
• Tommy's comment about repeat falsified reports having consequences. That's good for Governance and everybody.

Like I said, not crazy about the idea that existing content eventually won't be compliant even while BoM / alpha overlays mask anything the modesty layers would cover. It sure seems they still don't understand how deeply silly that is. If there's some other reasoning behind it, some AI enforcement trick they think it facilitates or something, they can either tell us what the heck they're doing, or appear to be completely out to lunch.

Edited May 10 by Qie Niangao

[Love Zhaoying]

Adding..many older bodies (including furries - feral and otherwise) aren't mesh..

[CaerolleClaudel]

54 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I'm about to dig into the video now, but I'm already seeing people getting kind of...angsty, and they haven't even officially started yet.

Fairies???? Those are adult unless you're doing some Tinkerbell reboot type of deal (aren't they born adults though?). What the...?

I mean...teen, okay? But I dunno, man...Rosetta's a little sassypants who makes very similar jokes to Blanche from Golden Girls, so I'm not quite so sure they're that young...

 

And no, extreme violence on Moderate sounds like bad ideas.

Extreme violence in SL period sounds like a bad idea to me, for what little it matters.

[brodiac90]

20 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

YOU on the other hand were brilliant. You were well informed, not pushy or overly noisy, and in general a voice of reason. So thank you from ALL of us for that.

That is a very big compliment. Blushes and goes all shy.... 

Edited May 10 by brodiac90

[CaerolleClaudel]

12 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Two things look really encouraging:

• Kiera's response about how existing content can be used with BoM layers and alpha. (Not crazy about the all-caps "TEMPORARILY"; it still suggests they think "not removable" actually means something, but migrating future content to comply automatically will mean something GRADUALLY.)
• Tommy's comment about repeat falsified reports having consequences. That's good for Governance and everybody.

Like I said, not crazy about the idea that existing content eventually won't be compliant even while BoM / alpha overlays mask anything the modesty layers would cover. It sure seems they still don't understand how deeply silly that is. If there's some other reasoning behind it, some AI enforcement trick they think it facilitates or something, they can either tell us what the heck they're doing, or appear to be completely out to lunch.

Due diligence? Plausible deniability?

[Freckles Fairelander]

12 minutes ago, Arwyn Quandry said:

The requirement of baked on perma-undies on all under 18s is going to present some real problems for teen avatars. They mostly use adult skins. Are adult skinmakers going to have to start including perma-undie versions on all of their body skins? Is that even likely? I wish I knew some to ask.

I feel like if I am going to present myself as a teen (or younger) and am using what is usually an adult mesh body to do so, like Maitreya, it should be on me to find and make sure I'm using a compliant skin. 🤷‍♀️

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Quick break from the video to respond to some thangs, but woooo, do I have thoughts:

 

11 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

Extreme violence in SL period sounds like a bad idea to me, for what little it matters.

100% agree, and if you were around wayyyy back in the day (maybe 2005-2010ish), you may remember just how absolutely NUTS some of that stuff could get. I would assume some is still around - probably just a bit more hidden these days. Thankfully, I haven't stumbled upon too much of that. *shudders at the thought of seeing it in MESH omg*

 

13 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

That is a very big compliment. Blushes and goes all shy.... 

I'll echo Scylla's statement. You were fantastic and I see you there struggling to keep chat at least somewhat tame and readable. 😂 Much appreciated!

[Aethelwine]

16 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

Extreme violence in SL period sounds like a bad idea to me, for what little it matters.

It does depend on what is taken to be extreme violence. A trick that makes an anvil fall on someone's head with a cartoon like boing sound, is the sort of cartoonish extreme violence targeted at children since at least Tom and Jerry started. I don't however take that be to the TOS service intent so much as excluding more horror\slasher film type violence.

[shireena1]

14:42] Tommy Linden: For those asking about clarification on age, regardless of your gender, whether or not you are a furry, or participating in the anime community, if you are presenting as under the age of 18, that is required to follow our policy regarding child avatars.

 

OK, NO wearing the my little pony avatar i have on adult sims. gotcha. 

[Coffee Pancake]

53 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I wouldn't consider that "extreme" or "graphic," nor I suspect would Governance.

And it's a lousy justification for opening the floodgates on Moderate to not merely combat RP, but also snuff, Dolcett, torture RP, etc.

That may be .. but this is why the majority of combat regions are A rated. This does need clarification and updating now we have combat 2.0 in progress, it would be a shame if that was restricted to A.

 

[Leslie Trihey]

Thanks for this. @brodiac90 💖 I wanted to attend but had real life matters come up.

[CaerolleClaudel]

6 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

It does depend on what is taken to be extreme violence. A trick that makes an anvil fall on someone's head with a cartoon like boing sound, is the sort of cartoonish extreme violence targeted at children since at least Tom and Jerry started. I don't however take that be to the TOS service intent so much as excluding more horror\slasher film type violence.

It's really none of my business anyhow, I guess. Just like I cannot see myself ever being any place where child avis would be, I cannot see myself ever being any place where extreme violence would be taking place. I just hate the idea, not what I see SL as being about.

[Vanity Fair]

I think Keira Linden’s comment about allowing Bakes on Mesh and/or alphas as an interim solution is very good news. 

I might even pull out my ToddleeDoo Kid avatar again, since she always wears BoM underwear anyways. I’m also in the TD Discord now, so any announcements about modesty panel updates should be posted there. I’m cautiously starting  to feel a little more optimistic about this.

Update: scratch that. Apparently, if my ToddleeDoo body is previous to version 3, I have to actually buy a whole new body. I’m not spending any more money on a body for an avatar I only log in once or twice a year. I’m ditching it.

Edited May 10 by Vanity Fair

[Rahadin]

Ferals are included? I guess Teegle's foal avatars will have to wear shorts now lol

[CaerolleClaudel]

12 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

100% agree, and if you were around wayyyy back in the day (maybe 2005-2010ish), you may remember just how absolutely NUTS some of that stuff could get. I would assume some is still around - probably just a bit more hidden these days. Thankfully, I haven't stumbled upon too much of that. *shudders at the thought of seeing it in MESH omg*

I started in 2007. I never ran across any violence, but wow, SL was a wild, wide open place back then. I actually liked that SL far better than what SL has been for the last 10+ years, but that is how it goes.

[Aethelwine]

15 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

It's really none of my business anyhow, I guess. Just like I cannot see myself ever being any place where child avis would be, I cannot see myself ever being any place where extreme violence would be taking place. I just hate the idea, not what I see SL as being about.

The TOS does talk about depictions of violence... so a Gallery showing Picasso's Guernica, a powerful anti-war art work would possibly be off limits for a child avatar, when it isn't in real life?

I often go to galleries, and it does kind of bother me if art has to be age restricted. I may have to go through my gallery to check.

Edited May 10 by Aethelwine

[Aethelwine]

6 minutes ago, Rahadin said:

Ferals are included? I guess Teegle's foal avatars will have to wear shorts now lol

A friend goes around in a dog avatar..an 18 years old is beyond a dogs normal life range. He hates photos of pets being dressed up, his day will be spoiled if tell him he has to wear shorts now

[CaerolleClaudel]

Just now, Aethelwine said:

The TOS does talk about depictions of violence... so a Gallery showing Picasso's Guernica, a powerful anti-war art work would possibly be off limits for a child avatar?

I often go to galleries, and it does kind of bother me if art has to be age restricted. I may have to go through my gallery to check.

I dunno, that is an age-old (no pun intended lol) question, isn't it? It seems that mostly places that make the rules see art as an exception, and that is sort of how I see it. The problem is that there is a line somewhere, where art fades into prurience.

Guernica, OMG. That thing traumatizes me. I saw a show of Picasso's drawing a long time ago, one of which was a study for that, and I think it was even worse, though at least a lot smaller. However, to me (and a lot of others, I think?) that was a really successful piece of art in terms of meeting its goal, which was to show that war is brutal and horrible and not some heroic thing.

Then we have what I would consider the opposite, something that just glorified violence and went for the gore or impressive destruction or something. I see pretty much no artistic value in that, and cannot see an 'art' exception being justified.

OTOH, loads of people would disagree with everything I just said from both stricter and more inclusive perspectives. But yeah, I would have to see things like Guernica censored, or things that show nudity, or many other things that drive these sort of discussions (such as the David censorship episode of The Simpsons lol).

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

I started in 2007. I never ran across any violence, but wow, SL was a wild, wide open place back then. I actually liked that SL far better than what SL has been for the last 10+ years, but that is how it goes.

I remember teleporting to a sim once back when I actually enjoyed exploring the grid - can't remember exactly what it said or how it was described in the Search directory, but I landed and it looked like one of those ye olde towns. Totally deserted. Started wandering around. Saw some cauldrons scattered around with some very odd looking things inside. W...wha's that ... ok let's just not look in there. Kept wandering. Entered a building. Found a kitchen. Took me a few moments to realize this was a whole cannibal village.

That's putting it mildly as @Scylla Rhiadra very much knows what I'm talking about here, but I do not want to get into that. I hauled my butt RIGHT out.

If they allow that kind of violence on Mature, I'd be absolutely horrified.

 

As for the video, I've finished watching it and all I can say is - bras on infants, seriously? We're really doing this?

[CaerolleClaudel]

Just now, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I remember teleporting to a sim once back when I actually enjoyed exploring the grid - can't remember exactly what it said or how it was described in the Search directory, but I landed and it looked like one of those ye olde towns. Totally deserted. Started wandering around. Saw some cauldrons scattered around with some very odd looking things inside. W...wha's that ... ok let's just not look in there. Kept wandering. Entered a building. Found a kitchen. Took me a few moments to realize this was a whole cannibal village.

That's putting it mildly as @Scylla Rhiadra very much knows what I'm talking about here, but I do not want to get into that. I hauled my butt RIGHT out.

Yes, lots of shocking things back then, and yes, some of it was disturbing. Given your reaction to the cannibal village, I am guessing that you would be shocked or worse by many of hte things *I* did back in my early years in SL. I did not do anything violent, and did not look for anything violent, though.

Unfortunately, I *did* have two violent, traumatic things happen to me in the first week I was in SL that stay with me to this day. I AR'd one of them and was never told what was even done, I assume nothing. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Overall though I enjoyed my first few years in SL more than all the years since put together.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Yep, though there are absolutely some rather lewd mod kits and accessories out there, but it's not difficult whatsoever to put together a very modest G-friendly furry look if that's what you're going for. Even easier since adults are made with all the major popular bodies and can wear whatever they want.

Btw, still going through this video and...yikes. It's a lot.

I guess old Luskwood anthros can wear clothes..