Luna Bliss Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 7 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said: 15 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: Love trying to trap you. Just think of how all of our words here on the forum are frequently misinterpreted. If we would be able to access everything anybody ever said in SL, and especially without context, the potential for distortion would be enormous. but what if it really is intentional as some people experience it? I'm sure sometimes it is. I was only referring to someone saying they're certain comments said in the past, over 15 years, could never be misconstrued as such, and pointing out that the potential for distortion is great. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 hours ago, Cindy Evanier said: How times change. Back in 2009 my 5 ft 11 + heels avatar was constantly being pulled up for being a child. 2024 my 5ft 11 + heels is now a giant Surprisingly, if you are 5’10 in the US, you are taller than 97.5% of American women. Extremely rare. NOW in SL, that does seem to be considered tall. I'm taller in SL than some and shorter than others. It's really not as big an issue as it used to be. I've seen a huge range of sizes for men and women all in one spot. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chery Amore Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 I wanted to go back to something I read earlier and add too it .. sorry if I can't remember who said it. I think there should be modesty layers on starter avatars. It could be part of the learning process or even agreement process. Maybe wipe the library.. I always hated the library with all those avatars. Put all that stuff in a starter "freebie" store. There could be a way to switch to the adult version of the newest starter avatar if you want to present as an adult in second life... but you'd have to freebie buy it... With it you get a lesson on maturity ratings and your responsibilities as a resident. I don't know if it should be encouraged but what about starter child avatars? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy Evanier Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 40 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said: Since when is 5'11" a giant? You're not tall irl until you're at least 6ft. lol when you add heels then stand next to my friends i am definitely much taller 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Puddles Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 (edited) Since the forum moderators decided to shift around the contents of this thread, I am no longer to go back and edit my original post. My intention was (and still is) to maintain and update a *single post* with all the issues I have been noting, rather than a long chain of buried comments. I am therefore reposting it below, with an addendum of additional issues that need clarifying. Hopefully I will remain able to edit this post should future issues be discovered. @Linden Lab @Tommy Linden @Maggie Linden @Keira Linden This post is not intended to 'join in' on the arguing back and forth. This is some direct and considered feedback that I hope you will consider when updating the FAQ in the coming days. There seems to be a lot of kibitzing going on over the specific words and phrases being used in the rules, and people are poring over it for any scrap of loopholes. Some issues that need to be specifically addressed (in direct words) in the FAQ are: Regarding Modesty Panels Layers? Change uses of the word "Layer" to "Panel" or "Patch".. This is causing confusion as to whether the use of system clothing 'layers' are an acceptable alternative to having a modesty patch on the skin. Baked, they said Baked! Similarly, change usage of the phrase "Baked onto" if you do not mean to imply that Bakes-On-Mesh Layers are an acceptable solution. Perhaps a better phrase is "Rendered or painted directly on the skin's textures", if that's what you mean to imply. How much modesty, is modest enough? Are grey crotch triangles and/or nipple-cover pastie style circles acceptable, or must this be an apparent clothing item? Do 'girl presenting avatars' with fully flat chests have to have bras? Is there an apparent age point where one is and isn't required? Is a C-string style cover acceptable, or do child avatars need actual panties painted on? Are thongish panties or high-cut briefs compliant, or does everyone need knee-length boxers? What specifically must be covered? It's an uncomfortable question to ask and answer particularly from the corporate world of worries of sexual harassment, sensitivity, etc, but there must be no ambiguity here, for child avs and asset creators. Where is the line here? Regarding "Must not match the skin tone" Surprisingly there's some room for quibble here as well. "by how much" is hard to quantify.. but also 'must the patch be hard edged?" comes into play here as well. A slightly different shade of brown or tan.. technically doesn't match. Does the patch need to be hard edged like a stamp, or can it be feathered along the edges to provide a more subtle transition for situations where an edge might peek out of a swimsuit? Tintable panels? A further question is raised if the modesty panels are accomplished through use of a transparent 'hole' in the skin textures, allowing the tint-able system layer under the skin textures to show. If creators offer this on a modifiable skin, it's potentially possible for users to tint their modesty panels to match the skin. Even if not sold that way, will the creator face sanctions when a user tints their modesty panels to match their skin? Regarding "Fully Nude" This phrase in actual SL usage is extremely vague. We realize you're not regular users of the service and it's often hard to remember every way SL is used. For the pedants, "I'm wearing socks" can be interpreted by some as compliant with the idea of 'not being fully nude'. Less pedantically, there are some clear questions about the phrase. Does a worn mesh diaper comply? Does mesh panties even if the skin has genitals on it? Do BOM layer undies or a C-string comply? If an avatar strips down to nothing but a body/skin (that *IS* compliant, complete with painted-on modesty panels).. is THAT considered being nude? Do modesty panels alone constitute 'not nude? Regarding child avatar users Some folks seem to be getting the idea that this rule only applies to content creators, and that child avatar users themselves have no direct compliance requirements. I personally think it's pretty clear, but I have 18+ years of experience in reading LL's announcements. Child avatars can't be forced to personally modify their skins, because child avatars largely don't make their own skins, they buy them. The creators need to update their assets, the child avatars need to use compliant assets by June 30. This needs some clarification. Regarding "use of Moderate or Adult keywords" Will creators be notified at time of publication which keywords they've used are considered Moderate or Adult? It seems unfair to threaten content creators with expulsion from SL over keywords they may not realize are not allowed to be utilized. It may be time to put an end to the 'hidden rules' mindset. Yes, this allows certain creators to potentially abuse the situation. Those abusers can be admonished. Do not march child-avatar asset creators, trying in good faith to comply, to their doom across a hidden minefield. Example.. the word "Latex" may be understood to be one of those words. But Latex is a name for a shiny material, which may be used (for example) in the description of included material options for a diaper cover. "Cute cartoon patterned diaper cover for your Toddleedoo, available in Plastic, Rubber, and Glossy Latex finishes" .. there should be some system in place for 'you've used the wrong keyword, it's been removed' or 'you need to change that'. Other Rules Documents and Wiki pages need updating! An argument occurred back and forth about 'whether this was really a change at all, as child avatars were never allowed on A-rated land". I knew this to be false, as I was keenly aware of the rule change events back in 2007 and 2009 that brought us the Child Avatar policies, and Adult Rated land. https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Adult_Content_FAQ#Are_child_avatars_allowed_on_Adult_regions.3F This document ***STILL STATES*** Quote Are child avatars allowed on Adult regions? Yes, child avatars are allowed in Adult regions, as long as they are controlled by a person who has verified themselves to be at least 18 years old. However, the avatar should not be in proximity to sexual content or activity; and must obey the policy prohibiting sexual *****. Since Adult regions by design will often contain sexual content, child avatars should use caution in visiting Adult regions. I am sure there are other, similar documents that may have fallen between the cracks. Some dedicated searches of the wiki, support FAQs, and other documents may be in order. It looks like the search tool for https://support.secondlife.com/ has crashed, but I will attempt another search for similar documents that may need updating, later. Blind Alleys and unintentional TP mistakes One of the arguments I've seen repeated is "You should know not to go to an [A] rated region, you're at fault!" but many.. MANY paths to teleports in SL do not make the land's rating abundantly clear, if at all. Slurls like this secondlife:///app/teleport/Moonspell/181/154/1170 do not render the region's maturity rating when they display in IM or local chat: Similarly, 'classic slurls' such as http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Moonspell/181/154/1170 also do not render a Maturity Rating symbol: And when visited from the web, even the maps.secondlife.com interface makes zero mention of the destination's Maturity Rating. While it's true that pressing the "Visit this Location" button will then open the "Place Profile", which can then display the Maturity Rating, it's common for the maturity rating to be well off the page if the window isn't opened at full size, which makes it easy to miss. Yes, it's further down.. but some locations have quite a lot of text that can push this very far down. I have also seen numerous instances when the Maturity rating did not display AT ALL (perhaps due to lag) That said, why IS that information way at the bottom? Shouldn't it be right next to the Region name? Shouldn't all these rendered hyperlinks and the maps page be putting those 🅰 [M] [G] things anyplace that a clickable link is presented? If you truly want a predictable experience. Edited May 6 by Honey Puddles 3 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 4 hours ago, Kathlen Onyx said: Quartz asked not to post pictures in the thread. why not? *checking for a personal message from a mole* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starberry Passion Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 minute ago, Cindy Evanier said: when you add heels then stand next to my friends i am definitely much taller Sorry, you are taller than me but I don't consider you a giant. You might be really tall for a woman but you're what is called "Model Height." which is a realistic height. I mean come on, Toni Garrn is 6'1" bare foot. People should leave you alone and even if there are giants, it doesn't matter, imo. It's just that some of those Giants try to talk down to those not on their level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Heartsong Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 38 minutes ago, Aya Sweetheart said: Because, according to other info, Moderate Land always allows nudity, and its expected. So if reading very specifically, this will disallow child avatars from moderate land unless that land specifically has rules in place that forbids nudity... People want this clarified from LL that Child Avatars really have to avoid almost every moderate area. That bold part there is where your personal assumptions are coming into play. Nudity is permitted to occur on Moderate land, but it's not expected. I think this is a really misplaced assumption. On Adult rated land, I'd expect it because why else rate Adult? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 minutes ago, Honey Puddles said: Since the forum moderators decided to shift around the contents of this thread, I am no longer to go back and edit my original post. Actually, you can't edit previous posts after a certain time limit. (There are cases where people "rush" to fix their posts before the time limit expires, or the post can't be edited after that.) So, the thread being "shuffled" shouldn't really make a difference. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said: Nudity is permitted to occur on Moderate land, but it's not expected. I think this is a really misplaced assumption. If someone showed up nude in my Adult land house, it would certainly be "unexpected"! The same would be true if my land were Moderate. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Puddles Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Just now, Love Zhaoying said: Actually, you can't edit previous posts after a certain time limit. (There are cases where people "rush" to fix their posts before the time limit expires, or the post can't be edited after that.) So, the thread being "shuffled" shouldn't really make a difference. Guess you'll be seeing this post again as time wears on, then.. (silly setting if you ask me). Doing my best to have a single document I can hand to a Linden at a meeting.. so, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: Actually, you can't edit previous posts after a certain time limit. (There are cases where people "rush" to fix their posts before the time limit expires, or the post can't be edited after that.) So, the thread being "shuffled" shouldn't really make a difference. Mods can't shuffle posts around so I think she meant that some posts had been deleted, which would shift, not shuffle, posts that come after it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 7 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: why not? *checking for a personal message from a mole* 19 hours ago, Quartz Mole said: I think if anyone wants to post some more pictures of avatars to discuss how old they look, it would be best so to do in a thread dedicated to that topic, possibly in the Your Avatar forum. If someone would like to start that thread, I'll port the last few pictures over, but please don't post any more of them in this thread. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: I don't see that at all, and I'm sure it would come as a huge surprise to most Moderate landowners that they need to specify nudity is allowed in order to get naked on their own beach. The way it's specified in the Maturity Ratings knowledge base article (included by reference in the SL Terms and Conditions) is by nudity being restricted from General: "… not allowed to advertise or make available content or activity that is sexually explicit, violent, or depicts nudity" but not restricted from Moderate: "… accommodates most of the non-adult activities common in Second Life". There's a whole long history of how and where maturity ratings have been defined, going back to 2007, so I could easily be overlooking some more succinct specification of how nudity is assumed to be allowed on M-rated land. But in the minds of most who own all that M-rated land, I'm very sure that's the assumption. non sexual nudity is permitted on moderate land according to the TOS, however if i go to a club on moderate land I get dressed because most likely the parcel owner forbids nudity. 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 (edited) .. i'll save this response if author creates a topic on 'what is acceptable as modesty layer' Edited May 6 by Codex Alpha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 7 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said: That bold part there is where your personal assumptions are coming into play. Nudity is permitted to occur on Moderate land, but it's not expected. I think this is a really misplaced assumption. On Adult rated land, I'd expect it because why else rate Adult? Also, nudity is certainly not EXPECTED on Moderate land. Belli is Moderate but I'm sure most people don't EXPECT to see naked people walking down the street. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 minutes ago, Honey Puddles said: Guess you'll be seeing this post again as time wears on, then.. (silly setting if you ask me). Doing my best to have a single document I can hand to a Linden at a meeting.. so, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You can always quote yourself into a new post in this thread, and add to it / modify the quoted info in the new post. Or start a separate thread with your thoughts, and post every time you have a new thought on the topic. (I do that a LOT, but they are not always "accepted" positively)! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aya Sweetheart Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 34 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: Nudity it NOT expected on moderate land. It's known that it could occur but it is not actually expected. If people there start stripping off, then a child avatar must leave, that's all. 29 minutes ago, Chery Amore said: No it isn't always expected. It just can happen... There are clubs out there on moderate land that don't host events that encourage that.. actually I would say most clubs on moderate land are like this. There would be no problem with you going and dancing the night away in a place like that. Granted I wouldn't go afk on any furniture that allows for couple animations but .. that's kind of given anywhere. While I agree, not everyone does... some people tell me its expected if not explicitly forbidden, and others say the opposite. LL just needs to clarify it if I can get a lot of people to not agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Just now, Rowan Amore said: Also, nudity is certainly not EXPECTED on Moderate land. Belli is Moderate but I'm sure most people don't EXPECT to see naked people walking down the street. All this talk of "Expected", I keep thinking.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codex Alpha Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Just now, Love Zhaoying said: You can always quote yourself into a new post in this thread, and add to it / modify the quoted info in the new post. Or start a separate thread with your thoughts, and post every time you have a new thought on the topic. (I do that a LOT, but they are not always "accepted" positively)! Yes, but it would warrant a whole other topic, as the discussion could be more related to her post, rather than in here 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: If someone showed up nude in my Adult land house, it would certainly be "unexpected"! The same would be true if my land were Moderate. A lot of the post with pictures were removed when Quartz came in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Just now, Codex Alpha said: Yes, but it would warrant a whole other topic, as the discussion could be more related to her post, rather than in here Yes, exactly - if she were collecting points / thoughts of a highly specific nature, that could be a "good thing"! On that note, I saw someone started a thread that is hard to tell from this one. Very confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 (edited) 1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said: A lot of the post with pictures were removed when Quartz came in. Yep. Speaking of, I thought those pictures were "moving to a new thread", but either I missed it or Quartz lost the posts and gave up. I was going to peek at that thread out of morbid curiosity. Edited May 6 by Love Zhaoying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayashe Ninetails Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said: For the females, but again, why a bikini? Do children were lingerie style undies? just make them shorts. Childrens swimwear and similar. Even a regular normal full-coverage one-piece swimsuit or gymnastics or ballet/dance leotard or something would be ruined if they had permashorts on. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wincil Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 (edited) Tbh I get the feeling that a modesty layer is a silly idea a creator of a child avatar can easily add that and btw mesh underwear aslo exists. Edited May 6 by Wincil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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