So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Kathlen Onyx]

Just now, Sammy Huntsman said:

Well to your second bit, its would be like underwear baked on. That is different than the actual skin colour. 

What kind of underwear though? Boy shorts? Bikini underwear, thongs?

I really think LL needs to step up and show what they deem to be "enough" coverage. 

[MissSweetViolet]

1 minute ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

I wish that when Maitreya came out withe Lara X there was such an uproar of people having to spend $Lthousands to replace a wardrobe but there was hardly a care in the world about that.  Even when creators said and did stop creating for Maitreya and are only creating now for Lara X.  

 

I honestly think that this thread would die down if LL simply showed us a picture of what the modesty panel will/should look like.  They have yet to do so letting residents make up in their head how bad it will be.  Not a responsible way to rollout a major change, if you ask me.

I think the main difference is switching to LaraX is a choice, you can still stay with 5.3 and many still make new content for it. Where as this is forced, which isn't even so much the issue since most child avatars already were something, but the way it's being done.

I agree, guidelines are badly needed and would help a lot, that's actually my number one concern right now is what is this layer supose to look like, and does it need to be in the body mesh per the FAQ, or is the skin enough, per the ToS? Or both?

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Kathlen Onyx said:

What kind of underwear though? Boy shorts? Bikini underwear, thongs?

I really think LL needs to step up and show what they deem to be "enough" coverage. 

That is up to the creator. They just need a modestly layer baked in. 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I only see child avatars, only when I am actively going out to look for them. I just don't actively run into one. But then again, I tend to hang in places, where adults and children gather in peace. In Family roleplay communities. 

Same other then the family role play which I don't do. It just surprises me there is such amount of vitriol against them when I might have seen less then a couple of handfuls over almost 15 years. To hear some go on about them, one would think they were everywhere getting underfoot! 

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

That is up to the creator. They just need a modestly layer baked in. 

It is NOT up to the creator. Where did you get this from?

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Kathlen Onyx said:

It is NOT up to the creator. Where did you get this from?

It is up to the creator, how they draw their modesty layer to bake on the skin. So you could have granny panties, boxers, boxer briefs or even briefs on them. 

[Vivienne Schell]

3 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

I think the main difference is switching to LaraX is a choice, you can still stay with 5.3 and many still make new content for it. Where as this is forced, which isn't even so much the issue since most child avatars already were something, but the way it's being done.

I agree, guidelines are badly needed and would help a lot, that's actually my number one concern right now is what is this layer supose to look like, and does it need to be in the body mesh per the FAQ, or is the skin enough, per the ToS? Or both?

Read carefully: "a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies.."

 

[Starberry Passion]

I use Legacy Perky with [+] Perky Petite add on, it's a very cute and feminine body, slim figured by default.

I use reborn sometimes and Legacy Bombshell. Reborn I use for when i want to have a more pear shaped body.

Edited May 4 by Starberry Passion

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

That is up to the creator. They just need a modestly layer baked in. 

The problem, Sammy, is that if the creator gets it "wrong" in LL's eyes -- if Governance deems that the modesty layer is not "modest" enough -- then it's the wearer who will also suffer, either by being slapped with a suspension, or even just left out of pocket for the price of a skin they can't use.

There needs to be a standard established by LL.

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

It is up to the creator, how they draw their modesty layer to bake on the skin. So you could have granny panties, boxers, boxer briefs or even briefs on them. 

So what you are saying is that if the creator draws a circle over nipples, the crotch and the buttocks that's sufficient enough? mhm,  I find that hard to believe.

[MissSweetViolet]

5 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I only see child avatars, only when I am actively going out to look for them. I just don't actively run into one. But then again, I tend to hang in places, where adults and children gather in peace. In Family roleplay communities. 

I'm actually not surprised, most rule abiding child avatars hangout in the sims design for children, or have made it clear children are safe there, I think most of them just feel safer there, I know I do. If someone gets caught acting/dressing non pg, their banned so it feels like a safer place to be.   

I sometimes think that's were the idea some get that all child avatars cause issues comes from. 99% of rule abiding child avatars wouldn't go to an adult region.So all that leaves are the non rule abiding ones who just want to troll or worse. Their a minority, but if it that was all I ever saw, I'd probably be leery too. Since based off posts I've seen, that there are people that prefer to stay in the adult areas of SL, those bad apples are likely the majority of child avatars they ever see.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Kathlen Onyx said:

So what you are saying is that if the creator draws a circle over nipples, the crotch and the buttocks that's sufficient enough? mhm,  I find that hard to believe.

Nope, but if they create a top and underwear combo that covers those areas adequately. I am sure that is fine, and you clearly didn't read what I stated Kathleen. I gave examples of underwear to use. And heck, you can even put a muscle shirt as the top for the child. That enables creators to be able to express their creativity through this way. 

[Starberry Passion]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The problem, Sammy, is that if the creator gets it "wrong" in LL's eyes -- if Governance deems that the modesty layer is not "modest" enough -- then it's the wearer who will also suffer, either by being slapped with a suspension, or even just left out of pocket for the price of a skin they can't use.

There needs to be a standard established by LL.

but it would still be their choice as to what type of modesty, it just cannot accentuate the private parts. Anything that covers the parts without appearing sexual, it's still up to the creators as to what kind of modesty they make.

[Arielle Popstar]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ye gods, Arielle.

There is NO indication she, or anyone else, will be "hunting down" child avis. In fact, Kathlen's direct remarks make it very clear she won't.

NO ONE is required to submit their personal list of "Things that make this a child" -- to you or anyone else. And as Rowan and others have said, it wouldn't matter if they did: it's Governance who makes that determination.

And Kathlen has also answered your last question. You can turn off the spotlight over her head now.

 

What is the problem? Kathlen offered the forum what she is going to do for her part in cleaning up the grid, so what is the problem with asking for some clarification like she is of the Lab? Remember, an AR starts with the residents. Without an AR, the likelihood is that no child avi will be subjected to an investigation or banning so I don't see the problem with asking those who initiate AR's what they will use as a determining factor or factors.

Edited May 4 by Arielle Popstar

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, MissSweetViolet said:

I'm actually not surprised, most rule abiding child avatars hangout in the sims design for children, or have made it clear children are safe there, I think most of them just feel safer there, I know I do. If someone gets caught acting/dressing non pg, their banned so it feels like a safer place to be.   

I sometimes think that's were the idea some get that all child avatars cause issues comes from. 99% of rule abiding child avatars wouldn't go to an adult region.So all that leaves are the non rule abiding ones who just want to troll or worse. Their a minority, but if it that was all I ever saw, I'd probably be leery too. Since based off posts I've seen, that there are people that prefer to stay in the adult areas of SL, those bad apples are likely the majority of child avatars they ever see.

I mean sure there are outliers, and you rarely see that. But for the protection of all, they wrote these rules. Sure it sucks for the majority that follow the rules. But instead of getting mad at LL, why not get mad at the minority who have broken the rules. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

What is the problem? Kathlen offered the forum what she is going to do for her part in cleaning up the grid, so what is the problem with asking for some clarification like she is of the Lab? Remember, an AR stars with the residents. Without an AR, the likelihood is that no child avi will be subjected to an investigation or banning so I don't see the problem with asking those who initiate AR's what they will use as a determining factor or factors.

You are the new self-appointed chair of the Committee on Un-Child Avatar Friendly Activities, then?

[Chery Amore]

2 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

I'm actually not surprised, most rule abiding child avatars hangout in the sims design for children, or have made it clear children are safe there, I think most of them just feel safer there, I know I do. If someone gets caught acting/dressing non pg, their banned so it feels like a safer place to be.   

I sometimes think that's were the idea some get that all child avatars cause issues comes from. 99% of rule abiding child avatars wouldn't go to an adult region.So all that leaves are the non rule abiding ones who just want to troll or worse. Their a minority, but if it that was all I ever saw, I'd probably be leery too. Since based off posts I've seen, that there are people that prefer to stay in the adult areas of SL, those bad apples are likely the majority of child avatars they ever see.

This is me I usually stay in adult places so mostly I see the ones that are skirting the edge if I notice them at all. I don't usually bother to do anything personally because they are not usually looking 12 to me. If I were in charge of the place though it would be a different story. I'd have to AR some and just ask others to leave. 

[MissSweetViolet]

4 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Read carefully: "a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies.."

 

That differs between the ToS and the FAQ.

https://lindenlab.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/31000173097-child-avatar-faq/#Q%3A-I-already-have-a-child-avatar-that-does-not-have-a-built-in-modesty-layer.- Can-I-still-use-that-since-I-purchased-it-already?

FAQ; "Q: I already have a child avatar that does not have a built in modesty layer.  Can I still use that since I purchased it already?
A:  No. Going forward, child avatars will be prohibited from being fully nude.'  Note; "Built in modesty layer" That implies not removable, you can swap a skin, hence it's removable.

-------

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Clarification_of_policy_disallowing_ageplay?_gl=1*tg8tpk*_ga*Nzk0NjA4MTE2LjE2Nzk3ODAxNDc.*_ga_T7G7P6DCEC*MTcxNDc0NTUwMy40Ny4xLjE3MTQ3NDk5MzMuMC4wLjE3NDg1NjAxOTY.*_fplc*JTJCUW93MFc1bVp5UzJtTUJ3dkM5NzRFdkg1TnhtR3ZhcUklMkJGV3lYRUVoVU9uVjglMkI5dmtOZkQ2TUhXc0JYdCUyQkpleHdhNjAlMkZucWElMkJlNHAxJTJGRkVSOW42amRTdmlzcHRIdEJVUkElMkZla05HV2l5SHhrcGJCUk5tRTAlMkJuamZjVDhBJTNEJTNE

ToS; "Being fully nude. Child avatar content creators are required to add a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies, is not transparent, does not match the skin tone, and may not be removed." Skin or body"

Their own documentation contradicts, hence the confusion.

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

You are the new self-appointed chair of the Committee on Un-Child Avatar Friendly Activities, then?

Well I was thinking you should as you did state there would be a flood of initial AR's in the first few months. I'm sure with your organizational skills and being a teacher, you'd know how best to moderate it!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Well I was thinking you should as you did state there would be a flood of initial AR's in the first few months. I'm sure with your organizational skills and being a teacher, you'd know how best to moderate it!

Great! Thanks!

My first act is to dissolve the Committee.

I propose we all go out for lunch instead.

[MissSweetViolet]

4 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I mean sure there are outliers, and you rarely see that. But for the protection of all, they wrote these rules. Sure it sucks for the majority that follow the rules. But instead of getting mad at LL, why not get mad at the minority who have broken the rules. 

I'm not mad a LL at all, I just want clarification on the layers is all. I feel like that shouldn't be an unreasonable request.

[Luna Bliss]

I've started 'The Undie Patrol Group' for those who want to go out spying and make AR's on our fellow residents.

[Kathlen Onyx]

6 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Nope, but if they create a top and underwear combo that covers those areas adequately. I am sure that is fine, and you clearly didn't read what I stated Kathleen. I gave examples of underwear to use. And heck, you can even put a muscle shirt as the top for the child. That enables creators to be able to express their creativity through this way. 

I have no idea where you got this from? It's like you made this all  up. 

LL never said it needs to be a top/underwear combo. People are concerned that the baked in layer will break their clothing so making them wear a muscle shirt is not a good solution at all. Also, there would be a huge difference between granny panties and bikini underwear.  

and it's Kathlen, not Kathleen and yes, it matters.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

I

We've elected you, Kathlen, as head of our new group, The Undie Patrol Group

[LittleMe Jewell]

10 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I don't see the problem with asking those who initiate AR's what they will use as a determining factor or factors.

Since I submit ARs sometimes, I'll answer this:  Sometimes, the profile tells us whether the avatar is a child, teen, or adult. If not, then if the avatar appears to me to be mid-teens and someplace that a teen should not be, I will AR.  I cannot definitively define "appears to be mid-teens" because it has to do with their overall look and their actions and words.