So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[elleevelyn]

1 minute ago, Rathgrith027 said:

I never said you didn't - but again, what you assume from what you perceive is inherently subjective.

we have a responsibility to those we share SL with.  I am going to put a few more outfits that I have into my "G" only inventory closet, outfits that are now even closer to the line for "A" regions given this latest policy change.  Linden are asking me to take this responsibility on myself, and I am going to do that

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Really not sure how those new rules are gonna stop anything. Sure the kid walks around in compliance, hits on an adult, then they run off to a hidden private skybox, the kid puts on a "banned" body and they do it, then the kid changes back afterwards.

This new requirement accomplishes NOTHING except alienating and enraging the vast majority of people playing child avis that don't engage in banned activities.

WTG LL, you effed us as usual

[Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia]

All this talk about agepolay weirdos... does anybody ever worry about the other changes?

I'm all for brushing my teeth, but flossing is weird to me.  I got some flosser toothpicks, to try to make it easier to avoid arbitration for failing to floss when I brush every night.

 

[Rathgrith027]

1 minute ago, Drayke Newall said:

True, however, some would and are arguing on the depths of the internet and elsewhere that there is a big coincidence that 5 years ago such accusations were published and here we are again with similar accusations.

I'm not saying any of it is true or that LL are lying or what have you however, the coincidence is there and I am not the only one that has seen the same coincidence.

I see the coincidence too, make no mistake, but all I have to say on that is that a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

6 hours ago, Denim Robonaught said:

I'd call that punishment for being a child avi.

 

Analogy time.

Imagine you are in Manchester, England, a handful of decades ago.

 

You join, voluntarily, and of your own free will, an organisation with a cute sounding name, "The Quality Street".

You go to their gatherings, have many of the members on your friends list, all that. It's like some sort of Social Club, right?

 

Then one day, the police kick in your front door, and search your place, and slap cuffs on you and drag you to the station, and interrogate you, wanting to know where you were last Tuesday, at 2:15 pm, and if you can verify that, are there reliable witnesses, etc.

 

See, the "Quality Street" are a gang of organised criminals, involved in prostitution, drugs, protection rackets, violent assaults, murder, and ARMED ROBBERY.

 

You can bitterly complain about people calling you a "gangster", claiming that you are completely innocent of any involvement in the raid on the Post Office last Tuesday, and had nothing to do with using a sawn off shotgun for "amateur knee surgery", you can tell the cops that it was your "besties", Crowbar Craig,  Icepick Ian, and Hacksaw Henry.

 

But don't act all surprised when they still refer to you as a "known gangster" a member of a known crime gang, and an associate of known criminals.

 

You CHOSE to join the gang, so you catch your share of the backlash against the gang.

 

Edited May 3 by Zalificent Corvinus

[elleevelyn]

14 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Child avatar content creators are required to add a modesty layer which is baked into child avatar skins or bodies, is not transparent, does not match the skin tone, and may not be removed.

i probably going to get AR'd for wearing layer undies when weeding the garden at this A rated venue where I look after the grounds by some rando who goes o.m.g avatar undies !!! must be a child !!!!

😸

[Rathgrith027]

2 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

i probably going to get AR'd for wearing layer undies when weeding the garden at this A rated venue where I look after the grounds by some rando who goes o.m.g avatar undies !!! must be a child !!!!

😸

If wearing underwear is a crime, then I will be going to SL21B in a bra and panties.

[Qie Niangao]

2 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

A word of warning, that […] is not exactly a trustworthy source. Court documents from LL legal counsel rebuked a lot of what […] accused LL of doing, and […] was accused of.. a lot of things that put her competency into question.

I'm not sure this post can stay intact for long so I tried to sanitize it a bit in case it helps, because it's a thing that needs to be said (over and over again, apparently). By citing that source the Medium piece advertised itself as nothing but bitterly demented fanfic. But people were eager to fall for it, including people who definitely should have known better.

It's undoubtedly helpful to do as the Lab has done and craft policy to increase confidence in the future environment. But that doesn't go very far to reduce doubt about the past. Maybe there's a PR rule that says not to waste time addressing past allegations; maybe nothing can ever be said to sway the conspiracy theorists from their theories. (At some level, I guess we know that's true.)

Nonetheless, there will remain a cloud here if the Lab can't go a few steps further to reveal the process followed in those external investigations even if it's counterproductive to ever offer concrete debunking facts. I suppose the more specific response would involve repeating false claims in order to refute them, giving them more mindshare in the process.

Would it help to have a statement from one of the outside investigators? Is there anything they could say that wouldn't have the same downside of repeating lies in the process of refuting them?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

8 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Analogy time.

Imagine you are in Manchester, England, a handful of decades ago.

 

You join, voluntarily, and of your own free will, an organisation with a cute sounding name, "The Quality Street".

You go to their gatherings, have many of the members on your friends list, all that.

 

Then one day, the police kick in your front door, and search your place, and slap cuffs on you and drag you to the station, and interrogate you, wanting to know where you were last Tuesday, at 2:15 pm, and if you can verify that, are there reliable witnesses, etc.

 

See, the "Quality Street" are a gang of organised criminals, involved in prostitution, drugs, protection rackets, violent assaults, murder, and ARMED ROBBERY.

 

You can bitterly complain about people calling you a "gangster", claiming that you are completely innocent of any involvement in the raid on the Post Office last Tuesday, and had nothing to do with using a sawn off shotgun for "amateur knee surgery", you can tell the cops that it was your "besties", Crowbar Craig,  Icepick Ian, and Hacksaw Henry.

 

But don't act all surprised when they still refer to you as a "known gangster" a member of a known crime gang, and an associate of known criminals.

 

You CHOSE to join the gang, so you catch your share of the backlash against the gang.

 

I love Quality Street, not had some in forever though.

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I use rlv for outfit changes, without any silly wardrobe hud. It always works for me, I'm not sure how it could "fail".

I've helped create and tet "RLV Transformation Traps".

I know how it can fail, and know the most common fails are 1) the attachment handling the stripping and adding, isn't locked in place and detaches it's self half way through, and 2) when the viewer fails to notice the attachover command, which is why the device should always auto lock it's self, in place before doing a detachall, and why you send the attachover command TWICE with a time delay.

Coffee is making it all sound more difficult than it actually is, the wardrobe thing is more complicated because it DOESN'T strip the whole avatar and replace with a different one, it has to keep track of individual attachments.

She's trying to paint banning pint-sized anti-adult-activities walking ToS violation griefer avatars from A rated regions as the end of Civilisation.

 

Edited May 3 by Zalificent Corvinus

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I'm not sure this post can stay intact for long so I tried to sanitize it a bit in case it helps, because it's a thing that needs to be said (over and over again, apparently). By citing that source the Medium piece advertised itself as nothing but bitterly demented fanfic. But people were eager to fall for it, including people who definitely should have known better.

It's undoubtedly helpful to do as the Lab has done and craft policy to increase confidence in the future environment. But that doesn't go very far to reduce doubt about the past. Maybe there's a PR rule that says not to waste time addressing past allegations; maybe nothing can ever be said to sway the conspiracy theorists from their theories. (At some level, I guess we know that's true.)

Nonetheless, there will remain a cloud here if the Lab can't go a few steps further to reveal the process followed in those external investigations even if it's counterproductive to ever offer concrete debunking facts. I suppose the more specific response would involve repeating false claims in order to refute them, giving them more mindshare in the process.

Would it help to have a statement from one of the outside investigators? Is there anything they could say that wouldn't have the same downside of repeating lies in the process of refuting them?

Great post!

[Drayke Newall]

24 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Would it help to have a statement from one of the outside investigators? Is there anything they could say that wouldn't have the same downside of repeating lies in the process of refuting them?

It would and potentially could (depending on the outcome) resolve the situation once and for all. There will always be the "yeah sure you did" response if a company investigates themselves and from that those same coincidences and conspiracy theories will continue. Even in this thread and LL's posts in response to those same questions of "did you really?" doesn't and by the tone of the response posts hasn't stopped such thoughts.

The fact that LL stated that they were getting an outside investigation done was one of the key things, I would dare say, that gave people peace of mind when all this happened. A statement from them saying we investigated and nothing untoward was found, however, have recommended x,y,z be implemented to provide further resolution to the issue would go a long way. It would also mean not needing to repeat lies of the past or from the current article as one would assume that the investigation covered all current and past accusations.

Edited May 3 by Drayke Newall

[Sid Nagy]

This part of the TOS can't be written in a way without people arguing with a ton of if and buts.
Look here in this thread 30 pages of that already, while the solutions are so simple.

Playing a child avatar in Second Life means (as it always did) stay away from the sex part of Second Life and keep your clothes on and stay at places with general activities. When in doubt stay away or change to an adult avatar.
The underwear issue becomes theoretical only then. Only the real perves in SL will think they have to police that. LL will for certain not do that I presume, they have better things to do for SL.

If you want to include sex, make sure your avatar looks mature enough to avoid trouble (that will always be somewhat arbitrary at the whim of the landowner.)

Of course there are those who want to live on the edge and try to push the limits, no matter what. That has always been the case on every subject, no matter what. Teen avs included.

So far my 2 cents. Carry on to repeat all the arguments over and over again for the next 30 pages. Enjoy

 

 

Edited May 3 by Sid Nagy

[Devilgrey]

13 hours ago, Starberry Passion said:

Petite isn't teen, people think it is from the states but the average breast size for women Globally is an A cup to a B cup. Not to mention, there are women that do have flat chests so that's not really good enough to condemn them as a child.

also can't forget curvy teens exist too, and usually those same teens get a lot of shame/crap while in school over it.

as a side-note, I've taken alcohol training for my culinary/retail jobs. training emphasized how much makeup/clothes/hair can really change your perception of a teen vs adult. basically very hard to tell age. some places make you ID everyone now just to be certain.

so it maybe tricky to establish what's a teen avatar is in sl without encroaching onto adult avatars too. it's a slippery slope. this will be a tough one for sure.

[Garnet Psaltery]

48 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

If wearing underwear is a crime, then I will be going to SL21B in a bra and panties.

Given much of the 'clothing' being sold, who's going to notice?

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

When I heard about the latest article that produced all this reaction I wasn't surprised. Whether it was true or not, the fact that it was published didn't surprise me at all especially if you have kept up with LL's issues regarding all of this.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of anything happening to them in the past. Even the 2019 court case where they fired their information security director (for what ever reason - it is irrelevant) and their claims in said case of high ***** numbers every quarter and those offenders simply being able to return. From this article: Second Life Is Plagued by Security Flaws, Ex-Employee Says | WIRED

"Pearlman says that her concerns were only amplified by violations of Second Life’s “*****” rules"

"According to the lawsuit, in 2018 the manager of Linden Lab’s fraud team “presented information to Linden board members in quarterly fraud reports that acknowledged a high number of such ***** [sic] violations were actually occurring on a regular basis each quarter.” The suit says Pearlman “was concerned that Linden Lab was apparently allowing the users to violate ***** rules, by not implementing appropriate procedures to prevent violations from repeating at the same levels each quarter.”

From previous information, this current article isn't an isolated case nor are we talking about a small number of offences.

Trust me. This latest article is not the first time it has been brought up that LL have been ignoring taking preventative action and simply hiding behind their rules. I am not saying what LL should or should do or if they are correct or not but when even their own teams have shown concern in the past it surely means something.

"There are a high number of profanity violations occurring each quarter. The proprietors of the English language are apparently allowing the users to violate profanity rules by not taking appropriate procedures to prevent violations - for instance, they could remove problematic letters from the alphabet."

The basic structure of Second Life makes "preventing" things very difficult. For instance, with the Play That Must Not Be Named, all these regulations concerning "child avatars" are up against the fact that "childness" isn't an identifiable trait in the codebase at all, and "adult (sexytimes definition)" is arbitrary and assigned by users.

[Starberry Passion]

7 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I am only on Page 8 of this topic, and will get thru all the comments when I have time, in days I think.   But this is going to make life difficult for many avatar and clothing designers, trying to satisfy this new "modesty" rule.  Apparently it is retroactive too - so if you bought a teen avatar in the last 15 years, you are probably now illegal if you don't have an opaque  not removable underwear layer on your skin.   Here are some currently for sale Teen Series avatars with clothing.  All will need to be modified now, which will likely kill any future sales.  BTW under 18 is a child, according to the laws.  You can join the Army and put your life at stake at 17, but you can't get naked to shower, in SL. 

 

None of these look like teens, these look like grown adults to me. What's happening here?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

I've helped create and tet "RLV Transformation Traps".

I know how it can fail, and know the most common fails are 1) the attachment handling the stripping and adding, isn't locked in place and detaches it's self half way through, and 2) when the viewer fails to notice the attachover command, which is why the device should always auto lock it's self, in place before doing a detachall, and why you send the attachover command TWICE with a time delay.

Coffee is making it all sound more difficult than it actually is, the wardrobe thing is more complicated because it DOESN'T strip the whole avatar and replace with a different one, it has to keep track of individual attachments.

She's trying to paint banning pint-sized anti-adult-activities walking ToS violation griefer avatars from A rated regions as the end of Civilisation.

 

my collar and hard core relay are locked on, but even they can come off in a tp.

everything that i never want removed is protected by (no strip) in the folder the item is located in. Most of that stuff is kept in one folder.

That protects me from being turned into a statue or table lamp.

I do have one saved outfit, but that is my complete restore outfit for when things go wrong, like last week when i accidently added the contents of an entire folder 😂

[BilliJo Aldrin]

10 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

None of these look like teens, these look like grown adults to me. What's happening here?

whats happening is that we are on a slippery slope with no end in sight 😬

[MinkBlueleaf Fyrewik]

Asking for a friend (really I do have a real friend, not a fictional one!) who wants to know about the My Little Pony "rip-offs" like OpenPony or whatever; I'm not into that scene so can't tell you what "brands," other than the one she mentioned. She expressed concern about one of her regulars who has such an avatar, if they would continue to be allowed at an Adult region or not. I just know they are small and have large eyes, not an "age" to them neccessarily. (I suppose this falls under furries? I have no idea.) But she was concerned and I had no answer for her.

[Starberry Passion]

23 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

whats happening is that we are on a slippery slope with no end in sight 😬

To me

This first guy looks like Tom Welling at age 35.

the second one looks like he's a 28 year old man

the third one looks like a 27 year old glam Elliot Rogers, if he didn't do what he did.

the fourth  looks around 26 and looks a bit like Gerard Way

This last guy looks like a 26 year old man who could be Carmen Kass's son.

And all of them are really really tall.

Edited May 3 by Starberry Passion

[Cindy Evanier]

My 2 pennyworth

#1  If you agreed to the new TOS and didn't read them, it's on you if you fall foul of any misdemenor

#2 If you are just here to be a child avatar, approach your skin ceator of choice and ask them to provide an updated version with the baked in modesty layer, change your ratings to G & M only and carry on with your  SL as you always did.

#3  Older teens trying to sneak into adult places, as I am sure we all did in RL... Deal with the consequences be it LL or the region owners rules.

#4  Everyone else just take a little responsibility especially those on moderate regions who may have content unsuitable for children be that making it group only, the land settings so nobody can see who is up to rumpy pumpy on your parcel or any other tool.  

#5  I think there are more children here than we actually believe judging by the way people stomp and cry and don't take any responsibility for their own SL.  

oh and a final one just occured to me... getting thrown into an infohub whenever that has happened to me EVERYONE is naked anyway with floating heads and body parts.  I am certainly not going to clutch my pearls and worry theres a naked child on my head, I am too busy trying all my landmarks to find a region that isn't down.  

Thats just my thoughts after surviving to page 30.

 

Edited May 3 by Cindy Evanier
spelling

[Rick Nightingale]

2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

You join, voluntarily, and of your own free will, an organisation with a cute sounding name, "The Quality Street".

Oh... that brings back memories. Not saying anything more than that!

[ValKalAstra]

49 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

None of these look like teens, these look like grown adults to me. What's happening here?

Twilight Sparklepires. I blame Stephanie Meyer.

... joke aside. I'm of the believe that we (probably just me) perceive age based on two factors, one being the obvious anatomical markers, the other being culture and our personal familiarity with it. For example, with people around my age, I often guess them younger than they are and a big part of that is that the clothes they wear, their hairstyles, even their mannerism used to be young fashion when I was a wee lass. It just kind of aged along with them.

It feels like anatomical markers are the first clue and the style and everything else is the second clue that narrows it down. In this example, I'd honestly call them as around 16 because again, give or take four thousand years ago when I was young, that was what boys my age would wear, how they would dress, how they would look.

Likewise, the less familiar with a style I am, the more I pay attention to anatomical markers and if I try to squint, I can see why someone would mistake them for the cast of the next season of Doctor Who or Supernatural.

What I'm saying is that identifying age visually is a mess, especially in a virtual world of exaggerated (frankly warped) proportions and it's not like we don't have an 800 week long archive of proof for that. I just hope this new content policy doesn't renew the paranoia surrounding smaller or more petite avatars, especially when in scene wear. Which is also my one and only contribution to this thread: Not looking forward to the influx of moral busybodies harassing others in world over this.

Back to joking:

Maybe there is money to be made in on grid anatomy lessons, we could fix T-Rex Arms, spinning top feet and "call CPS" face in one go!

Edited May 3 by ValKalAstra

[Starberry Passion]

2 minutes ago, ValKalAstra said:

Twilight Sparklepires. I blame Stephanie Meyer.

... joke aside. I'm of the believe that we (probably just me) perceive age based on two factors, one being the obvious anatomical markers, the other being culture and our personal familiarity with it. For example, with people around my age, I often guess them younger than they are and a big part of that is that the clothes they wear, their hairstyles, even their mannerism used to be young fashion when I was a wee lass. It just kind of aged along with them.

It feels like anatomical markers are the first clue and the style and everything else is the second clue that narrows it down. In this example, I'd honestly call them as around 16 because again, give or take four thousand years ago when I was young, that was what boys my age would wear, how they would dress, how they would look.

Likewise, the less familiar with a style I am, the more I pay attention to anatomical markers and if I try to squint, I can see why someone would mistake them for the cast of the next season of Doctor Who or Supernatural.

What I'm saying is that identifying age visually is a mess, especially in a virtual world of exaggerated (frankly warped) proportions and it's not like we don't have an 800 week long archive of proof for that. I just hope this new content policy doesn't renew the paranoia surrounding smaller or more petite avatars, especially when in scene wear. Which is also my one and only contribution to this thread: Not looking forward to the influx of moral busybodies harassing others in world over this.

Back to joking:

Maybe there is money to be made in on grid anatomy lessons, we could fix T-Rex Arms, spinning top feet and "call CPS" face in one go!

That wouldn't work. What if they looked like Gemma Ward or Jenna Ortega or Halle Bailey

or Ariana Grande. Sometimes adults just have natural baby faces.

Then you have Asian Americans.

You have adults like Melani Martinez who dress in Lolita  or Babydoll style

Some adults just love to be cute and doll like,

Then you have women who don't have a lot of curves, Rectangular shaped bodies

Then you have women who dress certain asthetics, Like Cutecore or Yami Kawaii or 

Then you have Femboys, who are of age males that live their lives femininely but still identify as a male

Places like Lunar has a Kawaii asthetic that appeal to adults, Insomnia Angel have an adult lolita style that appeals to adults, Rosier has a Lolita style, like Insomnia Angel, that appeals to adults.