What's the buzz, tell me what's a-happening?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

(When it requires an unemployed certified game developer to decorate the ol' prefab, it'll be a brave new virtual world for SL users and content markets. But I'm sure it'll be ever so pretty.)

 

If that ever happens, ill be dumping all my land and cancelling my premium subscription.

If I can’t build my own house, theres no point in owning land anymore.

Pretty isnt worth what Im paying

[BilliJo Aldrin]

On 3/2/2024 at 1:39 PM, Zalificent Corvinus said:

 

It's change for the sake of saying you changed something, not for the sake of improvements. Completely pointless.

 

That’s been LL operating plan forever, 

it aint broke, but lets change it so we can mess it up snd then change it some more.

Does anyone remember the SL viewer lite? Basically LL admitted their regular viewer was too complicated for noobs, so they brought in a viewer with limited feautures so noobs wouldnt be overwhelmed 😂

[Zalificent Corvinus]

8 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Basically LL admitted their regular viewer was too complicated for noobs, so they brought in a viewer with limited feautures so noobs wouldnt be overwhelmed

Ah, that old chestnut, that was a case of...

 

9 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

it aint broke, but lets change it so we can mess it up

The "Lite viewer was by all accounts, when we refer to technically as a "complete sodding disaster that drove noobs away and should never have been rolled out, ever".

 

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

TIL, I am a noob who doesn't know any better. 

That's why in your new "Positivity Cult" thread "How to persuade 12 yr olds who hate the idea of SL to come here and not rage quit until AFTER they commit credit card fraud with their parents cards", your OP lists several "kewl new ideas" that we have actually had for more than a decade.

 

Just saying...

 

[Arielle Popstar]

On 3/2/2024 at 4:12 PM, Persephone Emerald said:

It's not fair to say that only those who don't know better use the SL viewer. Some people have legitimate reasons for using it. TPVs offer us more options for those who want more flexibility, though. Firestorm also has a great inworld support group.

Like what? The stated figures are that 30% use the SL Viewer but that doesn't take in account users like myself who have and use the SL Viewer in my capacity to test and compare it to my preferred TPV viewer, seeing in what ways the SL viewer can be improved on (oh let me count the ways!). How many actually use the SL viewer for any other reason then their inworld usage is very limited or they only come on in a blue moon? There is nothing the SL viewer excels at that a TPV doesn't do better except that because of SL's occasional haphazard and slow roll out of a new feature, makes then on a rare occasion ahead of the others in supporting a new feature. Even then as the PBR fiasco shows, they don't communicate to anyone how to use it.

Probably that 30% figure is quite a bit less and they just count people like me who have the viewer for testing. That and a few people in the Forum who haven't bought a new computer in 10 years. 😃

[BilliJo Aldrin]

I have many reasons for disliking the SL viewer, but one big peeve of mine is that they force you to (or at least used to) upgrade to the latest version before letting you log in.

I much prefer firestorm’s three version rule, and they give plenty of notice before the version you are using is blocked

[Persephone Emerald]

30 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

... users like myself who have and use the SL Viewer in my capacity to test and compare it to my preferred TPV viewer, seeing in what ways the SL viewer can be improved on (oh let me count the ways!). 

You answered your own question. 

Besides using the SL viewer so one can better help newbies, one might want to know how their content looks or works with the SL viewer or how they can improve upon it with a TPV. I think it's also simpler (offering fewer options) than most TPVs, so in theory at least it should be easier for a newbie to use. Maybe for some people with an older computer the SL viewer seems to work better for them too?

Like many others perhaps who came into SL because a friend recommended it, I did what my friend suggested and used the Emerald viewer, then later the Firestorm viewer. I barely used the SL viewer, so I'm terrible at helping newbies with it.

When I created a new account to see what the new user experience is like with the Welcome Hub and Senra avatars, I also made myself use the SL viewer, to get the full experience. Of course I couldn't erase 14 years of SL experience, but I tried to hobble myself as best I could by using the default viewer and not going to MP or inworld stores for free stuff. (Since, LL dropped me into the Firestorm newbie island instead of the Welcome Hub, I also used a few freebie clothes from there and called myself a returning user instead of a true newbie.)

[Sid Nagy]

15 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

The SL viewer sucks, pure and simple. Only noobs that don't know any better use it. And that's probably why you lose so many. LL hasn't had a decent viewer since SL 2. whatever.

And then they waste their time making more and more shiny crap that most people don't want or need or can even run

17 Years in SL and still using it 90%+ of the time.
It is all about what one is used to. Most differences are more cosmetic than anything else.

There is a lot of group pressure in certain groups and circles to use another viewer than the one from LL.  But for most there is no real reason to do so other than others more or less order you to do so.

And... Firestorm has a great support group. That is a plus.

Edited March 4 by Sid Nagy

[Love Zhaoying]

I thought "Viewer Wars" was not an allowed topic of discussion?

Sorry, just remembered.  But some people like to be "edgy!" You rebels! LOL

 

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I thought "Viewer Wars" was not an allowed topic of discussion?

Sorry, just remembered.  But some people like to be "edgy!" You rebels! LOL

 

Not a war, just statement of facts.

[Qie Niangao]

16 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There is nothing the SL viewer excels at that a TPV doesn't do better except that because of SL's occasional haphazard and slow roll out of a new feature, makes then on a rare occasion ahead of the others in supporting a new feature.

More often than not, I'm using one of the LL project or candidate viewers to try out new features not yet available in TPVs. And that's not a rare occasion at all: I can't remember a time, ever, when there wasn't something being tested in a Linden viewer that wouldn't be available to test in a TPV for months yet.

I mean, I wouldn't recommend newbies start with a project viewer but, dirty job that it is, somebody's gotta do it!

I also use TPVs, although other than during this PBR transition, it's rarely Firestorm. It just takes so much longer to launch, which is an especially big deal when testing stuff that needs frequent fresh logins. Also, the menus are twice as deep and complex, which is of course necessary to offer all those features, but they're features I get along just fine without. Worse, if I grew accustomed to using them I'd lose the motor memory to do all the same things using the basic controls in all other viewers. 

Although the Linden viewer has picked up some TPV features in recent years (most usefully for me the Build Tool parameter copy-and-paste), there are some that I value still absent from the LL viewer. The one I value most seems usefully implemented only in Catznip, which unfortunately is now so far out of date I almost never have a login session where I can use it for what I plan to do.

So when I'm not testing new features I do use TPVs but I often end up launching a Linden viewer as path of least resistance.

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

More often than not, I'm using one of the LL project or candidate viewers to try out new features not yet available in TPVs. And that's not a rare occasion at all: I can't remember a time, ever, when there wasn't something being tested in a Linden viewer that wouldn't be available to test in a TPV for months yet.

I mean, I wouldn't recommend newbies start with a project viewer but, dirty job that it is, somebody's gotta do it!

I also use TPVs, although other than during this PBR transition, it's rarely Firestorm. It just takes so much longer to launch, which is an especially big deal when testing stuff that needs frequent fresh logins. Also, the menus are twice as deep and complex, which is of course necessary to offer all those features, but they're features I get along just fine without. Worse, if I grew accustomed to using them I'd lose the motor memory to do all the same things using the basic controls in all other viewers. 

Although the Linden viewer has picked up some TPV features in recent years (most usefully for me the Build Tool parameter copy-and-paste), there are some that I value still absent from the LL viewer. The one I value most seems usefully implemented only in Catznip, which unfortunately is now so far out of date I almost never have a login session where I can use it for what I plan to do.

So when I'm not testing new features I do use TPVs but I often end up launching a Linden viewer as path of least resistance.

Firestorm is a bit slower to start but is balanced out by the fact that the SL viewer is regularly forcing me to update, making their start up actually slower. Also that the TPV's are lagging behind on their updates is largely as a result of the Lab insisting the other viewers present a similar view and then fip flopping themselves on what the end result is, making the TPV dev's hesitant to roll out new features until the lab finally settles on their path.

[Phil Deakins]

So to sum up the recent posts in this thread, TPVs are always significantly behind the times, the LL viewer does everything that most users want or need, and most of the so-called extras that TPVs have are nothing more than breaking out things that the LL viewers always have, making some things that most people neither use nor need easier to find whilst complicating usability.

 

[Qie Niangao]

21 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

 fip flopping themselves on what the end result is

We should test new features with no hope our feedback will affect anything?

I can't imagine TPV developers are actually using "uniform experience" as an excuse not to roll out new features sooner. There are plenty of good reasons for doing that gradually, especially when the more unique features a viewer has the more potential feature interactions to test. It's not a fault of TPVs that they don't have those features sooner, but it's a reason some of us (not nearly enough of us!) use the Linden candidates. And you can be very sure TPV developers and support staff are among those using those Linden project and candidate viewers.

[Rowan Amore]

34 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

the fact that the SL viewer is regularly forcing me to update

You can turn that off in Preferences...

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You can turn that off in Preferences...

Ok thx but I will say most updates have a pop up saying that I must update in order to login, not optional.

[Sid Nagy]

20 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

So to sum up the recent posts in this thread, TPVs are always significantly behind the times, the LL viewer does everything that most users want or need, and most of the so-called extras that TPVs have are nothing more than breaking out things that the LL viewers always have, making some things that most people neither use nor need easier to find whilst complicating usability.

 

A+

[Arielle Popstar]

24 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

So to sum up the recent posts in this thread, TPVs are always significantly behind the times, the LL viewer does everything that most users want or need, and most of the so-called extras that TPVs have are nothing more than breaking out things that the LL viewers always have, making some things that most people neither use nor need easier to find whilst complicating usability.

 

Didn't you recently mention you are often on Speedlight? Does that not qualify you as a user who has a very limited scope of needs to interact with the world? I would think that disqualifies you as being with the "most users" category.  

[Love Zhaoying]

28 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

So to sum up the recent posts in this thread, TPVs are always significantly behind the times, the LL viewer does everything that most users want or need, and most of the so-called extras that TPVs have are nothing more than breaking out things that the LL viewers always have, making some things that most people neither use nor need easier to find whilst complicating usability.

 

Yes. Isn't it inconvenient for the haters, that they have the SL viewer to compare with in the first place?!?

[Zalificent Corvinus]

10 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

So to sum up the recent posts in this thread

Here we go again...

11 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

TPVs are always significantly behind the times

It's true, because it takes them TIME to try and fix all the things LL fubared in their fustercluck coded half finished mess.

 

12 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

the LL viewer does everything that most users want or need

Doesn't do a lot of what I'd want or need, same goes for most of the 70% of the user base who REFUSE to use it.

 

13 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

most of the so-called extras that TPVs have are nothing more than breaking out things that the LL viewers

Wrong, TPV's don't "break out" LL lame-features, they add new features, that sometimes, if the Fail-Viewer peasants are lucky, LL will graciously copy in a later version of the Fail-Viewer.

 

15 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

making some things that most people neither use nor AND need easier to find

Fixed that for you.

 

Thank the TPV devs.

Ability to de-render ugly old crap rezzed by clueless Captain Oldbie Fossils - TPV Feature.

Ability to see parcel lines on the mini map - TPV Feature.

Ability to use RLV/RLVa  for things like wardrobe management - TPV Feature.

Ability to use Photo Tools for better snapshots - TPV Feature.

Ability to disable "LL Fail-Code Pretentious Bloody Rubbish" - TPV Feature.

To name but a few TPV Features.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

We should test new features with no hope our feedback will affect anything?

People tested the EEP Project viewer, their feedback was mostly ignored, the only significant change from the initial Project Viewer Public Beta test, to the Release version was... Removing the only thing all the testers actually liked, the second moon option.

So much for feedback.

 

19 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It's not a fault of TPVs that they don't have those features sooner, but it's a reason some of us (not nearly enough of us!) use the Linden candidates

I remember from 2016, when I tried Black Dragon, back in late Jan / early Feb, that it had the RCI Jellydoll system in it. Then it was removed, apparently because LL objected to it being in a release version of BD 4-5 months before it was rolled out in the official fail viewer.

 

Realistically, most of the Project viewers are of questionable use, stuff like the 360 degree snapshot viewer's "HDR Lat-Long Format Light Probe" thing. That project viewer got officially discontinued, then revived later. Another project viewer that got shut down was the webcam based auto-gurning system with digital arm thrash anti-technology.

 

Complete wastes of time, effort, and money.

 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

40 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

We should test new features with no hope our feedback will affect anything?

No I realize it is not ideal but does explain why the TPV developer(s) are hard pressed to keep up.

Quote

I can't imagine TPV developers are actually using "uniform experience" as an excuse not to roll out new features sooner.

Why not? In Oz's day, "uniform experience" was being increasingly insisted on to the point they  even prevented TPV's from rolling out new features that SL in its limited wisdom, thought would compete too much with their own. EEP as an example would have rolled out sooner had it been left to TPV's (or not at all)

Quote

There are plenty of good reasons for doing that gradually, especially when the more unique features a viewer has the more potential feature interactions to test. It's not a fault of TPVs that they don't have those features sooner, but it's a reason some of us (not nearly enough of us!) use the Linden candidates.

 Maybe SL should have an Alpha viewer for its own internal use before rolling it out to the TPV's for beta with most of the new features already done instead of putting it out in beta for testing when they haven't a clue if it is even workable?

Edited March 4 by Arielle Popstar
clean up

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

explain why the TPV developer(s) are hard pressed to keep up

I remember the Catznip devs stating that the reason they took so long include EEP in their viewer was because they had to redesign the UI, and try to fix the worst of LL's mistakes, before inflicting it on their users.

[Persephone Emerald]

12 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Ability to de-render ugly crap -TPV  Feature.

Ability to see parcel lines on the mini map - TPV Feature.

Ability to use RLV/RLVa  for things like wardrobe management - TPV Feature.

Ability to use Photo Tools for better snapshots - TPV Feature.

[snip]

Realistically, most of the Project viewers are of questionable use, stuff like the 360 degree snapshot

[snip]

These are all good features that the SL viewer should add, if it doesn't have these already.

Note: Oldbies don't have the monopoly on rezzing ugly stuff. "Ugly" is also a subjective appraisal. Everyone should be able to derender objects they don't want to see in their own viewer. This should be especially clear for those who love the freedom of expression exhibited on Mainland. Others should be free to create the experience they want on their own parcel, but those around them should not be forced to share in that experience. If one person loves seeing all the weird chaos of mainland, great. But if someone else wants to see nothing but empty grass and water around them as far as their viewer can see, this is fine too. 

Btw, I like the 360 view photos. I don't use this feature much, but it's fun, and it's in Firestorm now too.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Btw, I like the 360 view photos. I don't use this feature much, but it's fun

The Fail Viewer's 360 snapshot seems to have two modes.

One is the straight forward 360 panoramic scan, like those old clockwork powered cameras that used to be used to take photos of an entire school.

The other mode is HDR Lat-Long Light Probe format, which is completely useless in SL, and not much use outside SL, as its not HDR, it just uses the HRD mapping, with it's weird spherical distortions.

Ironically, it's the format that's probably being used in the auto generated Light Probes for Fail-viewer PBR.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

40 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Yes. Isn't it inconvenient for the haters, that they have the SL viewer to compare with in the first place?!?

Haters hate for the sake of hating, critics criticize for the sake of pushing something to be better. Without critics, SL would still be at the level of 2010. See the difference?