Mainstream failure of SL & Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

[Sid Nagy]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I suggested a few years ago that new residents could earn tokens of some kind by completing certain objects like the ones you've mentioned.  Then, instead of purchasing Ls right away, they could spend those tokens on items in the New Resident store.  We know LL now has token capability (casino chips) so why not use those more.constructively.  

There would be goals and rewards if they choose.  They'd then learn how to buy, how to unpack, how to wear or interact with items.  No reason for others to game the experience with alts as tokens aren't Ls and can't be spent elsewhere or cashed in.

 

I totally like this idea, but I hope that it never ever will be related to the social casino tokens.
Leading people towards gambling is a very bad idea in my book.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Small text improvements.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I suggested a few years ago that new residents could earn tokens of some kind by completing certain objects

They did this in Sansar and it worked well, they called them "quests". They got new users moving around and learning things. It's probbaly not an uncommon thing in most games, not sure why LL hasn't implemented it.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

2 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Leading people towards gambling is a very bad idea in my book.

A friend of mine and i were laughing about this recently. The optics are terrible. 

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Sid Nagy said:

I like this idea totally, only I hope that it never ever will be related to the social casino.
Leading people to gambling is a very bad idea in my book.

I agree but when I put the idea forth before, I was.shot down with "LL would have to implement a whole other monetary system" which they have now done with the Casino.  Using the HUD method like the casino would be perfect.

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I suggested a few years ago that new residents could earn tokens of some kind by completing certain objects like the ones you've mentioned.  Then, instead of purchasing Ls right away, they could spend those tokens on items in the New Resident store.  We know LL now has token capability (casino chips) so why not use those more.constructively.  

There would be goals and rewards if they choose.  They'd then learn how to buy, how to unpack, how to wear or interact with items.  No reason for others to game the experience with alts as tokens aren't Ls and can't be spent elsewhere or cashed in.

 

Fantastic idea!

[Luna Bliss]

8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't understand why you see Humanistic Psychology as so lacking.

You sure like to ask "why" a lot!

Different therapists will prefer different methods as per both "their training" and "what works for them".  Some therapists use many different approaches and select the one that seems best given their own experience as a therapist and the client's needs.

"Humanistic therapy sessions encompass a gestalt approach—exploring how a person feels in the here and now—rather than trying to identify past events that led to these feelings."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapy-types/humanistic

So, if an individual therapist has a) no experience with the "humanistic approach" and/or gestalt therapy, or b) knows this approach is bad for the client (based on past experience, or because it does not match with the client's specific situation), then of course they would select another approach.

Thank you for the compliment, as I do indeed like to ask "why" a lot 

I agree with what you've said here about therapies in general, but I was responding specifically to someone who was trashing Humanistic Psychology via championing theories that label people as sick individuals with brain abnormalities.  While there are brain abnormalities making functioning difficult for some, for most people who have problems there are other factors we need to explore -- enter the Humanistic Psychology era.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think what was being stressed in that particular point in the talk that Coffee pointed to, was that we don't HAVE to focus on the lower levels of the pyramid (in either 1st or 2nd life) in order to experience those higher levels in SL.

But Coffee SEEMED TO ME to be saying "this is a bad thing" because it means no initial challenge, so no reason for users to stay in Second Life.  That is the part of Coffee's argument that I originally was disagreeing with.

I understand you say it is a GOOD thing. I agree with you.

I don't understand what you're saying here, so if you want to discuss this point I need further clarification.

[Luna Bliss]

8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

11 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The more I think about this, the more I think this question at the LabGab was a waste of time.  Get newbies started with the basics and hope they find a buddy to mentor.  All these higher needs are academic psycho blab . 

YES! I agree 100%!

The entire question was side-tracking a group of non-psychotherapists into discussing whether a GAME fits into a psychological model.  These guys couldn't give a relevant answer.  If they could, we ("royal we", not YOU) would not comprehend it (their answer).

A total and complete waste of time.

Thank you!

It's appears to be some forumites sidetracking the discussion via a few monumental distortions rather than the questioner or presenters at the meeting, initially perpetrated by the OP, and then we ran with it.
I actually didn't read the 3 minute comment by Philip Coffee led us to before beginning my comments. My bad. Never again will I have such trust in any OP statement of much complexity as it all too likely frames the entire debate in distortion.

It was not a side-tracking (that question from the audience member) nor is it true Philip gave an answer that demonstrated he had no grasp of the Maslow theory.
Again, the theory says when we have the most basic needs met (at the bottom of the pyramid), we are better able to focus on the behavior at the top layers of the pyramid. He goes on to note that people are basically good when these bottom layers are tended to, and praises SL for its ability to bypass some of these more physical needs so that people can devote more focus to the higher levels.

When I see retired individuals, some quite elderly, finding new meaning in life via using their working life skills to help SL residents have a more fulfilled life here, all I can do is applaud SL for the opportunity it gives them. In the US especially, we pretty much trash the elderly and consider them useless, but in SL most don't care what age someone is -- they relate to what they experience in the person as opposed to how they look and the stereotypes associated with it.
When I see disabled people who cannot fit into a regular 1st life job develop their abilities and earn money for their family or find artistic expression here, all I can do is feel gratitude for SL.
Or mothers who are able to provide additional funds for the care of their children via working their SL job from home.
Or those who discover their artistic talent in SL who might not have otherwise (SL makes this much easier as art is all around us, inspiring us).

I could go on and on with examples of people finding meaning in SL due to a minimizing of those obstacles on the lower levels of the pyramid that would make their endeavor difficult in the physical world.
So Philip's comment was very meaningful and demonstrated he has a grasp of Maslow's theory. He's actually voiced all this before, and only tied it to Maslow's theory because an audience member referenced it in a question to the presenters. It would have been rude to totally ignore it, and so he responded appropriately.

There are many theories in Psychology and in spiritual and self-actualization philosophies that discuss human motivation and behavior, and try to provide guidance so we can have a better life. They all have a "pyramid' of sorts. The Guru you frequently reference certainly does, and you have given us his helpful advice on many occasions.

[Luna Bliss]

5 hours ago, elleevelyn said:

same with leveling up skill sets. Back in the day the public sandboxes were overflowing with residents showing new people how to build, sharing resources with the new people - scripts, textures, sounds, etc. Then there were all the building competitions and show and tells hosted by residents

the public sandboxes on the main grid are a desert now. The capacity to level up building skills inworld is a whole lot less now than it was (mesh) 

so I do have some sympathy with the idea of gamification as it was way more prevalent back in the day than it is now

I have such mixed feelings about mesh.  It very much limits an important part of the creativity that once occurred here, but when I see an exquisitely crafted mesh item, taking up only 1 LI vs that same item that took up 4  LI  in the past and was not nearly as nice-looking, then I love mesh.

Enabling better building tools inworld so residents could again feel as creative as they did in the past would go a long way in growing SL I think, along with many of the other ideas mentioned in this thread. 

Unfortunately the residents can't do that -- we need better inworld building tools.

[Love Zhaoying]

35 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I agree with what you've said here about therapies in general, but I was responding specifically to someone who was trashing Humanistic Psychology via championing theories that label people as sick individuals with brain abnormalities.  While there are brain abnormalities making functioning difficult for some, for most people who have problems there are other factors we need to explore -- enter the Humanistic Psychology era.

The "Humanistic Psychology Era" did not completely replace the need for defining "diseases", or we would not have a "DSM" anymore. Good luck treating certain psychoses, schizophrenia, etc. by discussing "feelings".

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

34 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's appears to be some forumites sidetracking the discussion via a few monumental distortions rather than the questioner or presenters at the meeting, initially perpetrated by the OP, and then we ran with it.
I actually didn't read the 3 minute comment by Philip Coffee led us to before beginning my comments. My bad. Never again will I have such trust in any OP statement of much complexity as it all too likely frames the entire debate in distortion.

It was not a side-tracking (that question from the audience member) nor is it true Philip gave an answer that demonstrated he had no grasp of the Maslow theory.
Again, the theory says when we have the most basic needs met (at the bottom of the pyramid), we are better able to focus on the behavior at the top layers of the pyramid. He goes on to note that people are basically good when these bottom layers are tended to, and praises SL for its ability to bypass some of these more physical needs so that people can devote more focus to the higher levels.

When I see retired individuals, some quite elderly, finding new meaning in life via using their working life skills to help SL residents have a more fulfilled life here, all I can do is applaud SL for the opportunity it gives them. In the US especially, we pretty much trash the elderly and consider them useless, but in SL most don't care what age someone is -- they relate to what they experience in the person as opposed to how they look and the stereotypes associated with it.
When I see disabled people who cannot fit into a regular 1st life job develop their abilities and earn money for their family or find artistic expression here, all I can do is feel gratitude for SL.
Or mothers who are able to provide additional funds for the care of their children via working their SL job from home.
Or those who discover their artistic talent in SL who might not have otherwise (SL makes this much easier as art is all around us, inspiring us).

I could go on and on with examples of people finding meaning in SL due to a minimizing of those obstacles on the lower levels of the pyramid that would make their endeavor difficult in the physical world.
So Philip's comment was very meaningful and demonstrated he has a grasp of Maslow's theory. He's actually voiced all this before, and only tied it to Maslow's theory because an audience member referenced it in a question to the presenters. It would have been rude to totally ignore it, and so he responded appropriately.

There are many theories in Psychology and in spiritual and self-actualization philosophies that discuss human motivation and behavior, and try to provide guidance so we can have a better life. They all have a "pyramid' of sorts. The Guru you frequently reference certainly does, and you have given us his helpful advice on many occasions.

..so..we agree? 

LOL!

 

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

I suggested a few years ago that new residents could earn tokens of some kind by completing certain objectives like the ones you've mentioned.  Then, instead of purchasing Ls right away, they could spend those tokens on items in the New Resident store.  We know LL now has token capability (casino chips) so why not use those more.constructively.  

They did this in the welcome area 2 versions ago, so one before their auto attach hud one. They offered a token each time they completed the 'tutorial' which was similar to what it is now click a button etc. The store they had though was very small and offered not good quality items. I got my pair of shoes there i still wear on one of my alts. Cost 2 tokens for the shoes and i think you got a total of 10 all up.

Could buy hair, basic set of one female and one male outfit parts, etc. It didnt work as the offerings you could use the tokens on were very limited and basic. No user created things either. Their freebie store they provided around 2006-2010 was better.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Drayke Newall

[Luna Bliss]

44 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I agree with what you've said here about therapies in general, but I was responding specifically to someone who was trashing Humanistic Psychology via championing theories that label people as sick individuals with brain abnormalities.  While there are brain abnormalities making functioning difficult for some, for most people who have problems there are other factors we need to explore -- enter the Humanistic Psychology era.

Expand  

The "Humanistic Psychology Era" did not completely replace the need for defining "diseases", or we would not have a "DSM" anymore. Good luck treating certain psychoses, schizophrenia, etc. by discussing "feelings".

I didn't say Humanistic Psychology replaced the medical model completely...I'm saying there was an expansion in our understanding of the human mind and what does or does not cause problems in terms of functioning.

Originally, Psychology was based too much on a medical model -- they did this in an attempt to gain respect as a profession (tried to frame their theories/treatments in ways the current models could accept), as the medical profession was dissing them in an attempt to retain control.

Most people, however, do not have a structural condition within the brain causing their problems, and so other models expanded our knowledge so we could help these people too.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I didn't say Humanistic Psychology replaced the medical model completely...I'm saying there was an expansion in our understanding of the human mind and what does or does not cause problems in terms of functioning.

 

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I was responding specifically to someone who was trashing Humanistic Psychology via championing theories that label people as sick individuals with brain abnormalities.  While there are brain abnormalities making functioning difficult for some, for most people who have problems there are other factors we need to explore -- enter the Humanistic Psychology era.

Your statement above is not really "either or"; you heavily weight your statement towards "Humanistic Psychology".

Sorry if I misunderstood!

[Coffee Pancake]

2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

I suggested a few years ago that new residents could earn tokens of some kind by completing certain objectives like the ones you've mentioned. 

I proposed an entire secondary currency with high value proposition to new users an optional worthless guff to the established player base (save for being useful to large land owners potentially reducing our rent)

Everyone loved that.

I swear, half the people on the forum are just here to argue. If SL closed, they wouldn't notice.

[Arielle Popstar]

35 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Your statement above is not really "either or"; you heavily weight your statement towards "Humanistic Psychology".

Think some are just making entirely too much of Maslow's model probably as a result of the Op's initial post where she stated 

Quote

Ok, so there is this thing called "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs". The idea being that you must start at the bottom and meet those needs in order to explore items in higher tiers.

with the onus being on the must. My understanding of his model is that it just a model of what he saw as relevant in the general population and not a "you must do this". There are exceptions to the model all the time with a big example being Spiritual Psychologies where one starts at the top and then works down. First focus on the Self or God Actualization and then the rest will fall in place by themselves. See Matthew 6:33 “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” 

12 Step programs see this all the time as their focus is teaching the Actualization first and when someone has that in place, the other levels start to come together. It results in a much faster recovery then would be possible if someone starts at the bottom and works their way up.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

with the onus being on the must. My understanding of his model is that it just a model of what he saw as relevant in the general population and not a "you must do this".

It's not a great model. I stated that in the OP  .. I also stated ..   

On 6/28/2023 at 8:28 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

That's not important for this discussion, no need to pick holes in Maslow's pyramid. It's just here to "set the stage".

Bold text and everything.

But you know .. who cares when pedantry and 💩posting are more important to half the people here.

[Arielle Popstar]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:28 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

I think Philip has fundamentally misunderstood the implications of Second Life omitting the bottom two foundational tiers of 'Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs'. Yes it is a positive platform for people to explore, express themselves, be altruistic and achieve personal growth.

I don't think it is that Philip so much misunderstands the current SL culture but that he is still living in SL as it was before 2010. Just looking at his avatar in the interview shows he wouldn't get to first base with most of the people inworld who insist they will only chat with people who are meshed. He is like the hippie flowerchild of yesteryear trying to relive a previous generation when the rest have moved on to a much more materialistic mindset where one's identity is wrapped up in how good one looks rather then how much one helps others become a functional resident in this virtual world.

[Orwar]

   I'm finding the whole Maslow's Stair model rather misplaced to be honest, the needs of a human being and what the content of Second Life should focus on aren't the same thing; SL has never pretended to be a substitute for real life, nor a simulation thereof.

   Of course, it can be used to simulate things, but that's not "what it is". It's a thing where you can play something as simple as tic-tac-toe, or chess, or D&D, or lay Patience (solitaire, for ye across-the-ponders), or build a memorial, or a theme park, or an art gallery, or a brothel, or a racing track for cars, or bikes, or rocket-propelled penguins. To try to make SL be about feeding your avi like some MMO Tamagotchi would be to detract from what makes SL what it is; a true sandbox experience far more complex than Minecraft or any other video game could ever dream of achieving. 

   Besides, there's been no shortage of wannabe-Minecraft clones throughout the years that came and went unnoticed by the 'mainstream', so I think it'd be silly to expect SL-goes-survival-sandbox to be any more of a commercial success than World of Cubes or Block Craft 3D. 

[Quistess Alpha]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

I suggested a few years ago that new residents could earn tokens of some kind by completing certain objectives like the ones you've mentioned.  Then, instead of purchasing Ls right away, they could spend those tokens on items in the New Resident store.  We know LL now has token capability (casino chips) so why not use those more.constructively.

I'm pretty sure "Social island" has exactly that? There was a weird statue that you had to spot a few things on to learn to move the camera and an awful to control boat. I used (3 years ago now?) the game points (tracked on an experience-attached HUD) to "buy" some bad hair I'll never wear again, and a pair of flats that weren't half bad.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Quistess Alpha

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

I'm pretty sure "Social island" has exactly that? There was a weird statue that you had to spot a few things on to learn to move the camera and an awful to control boat. I used (3 years ago now?) the game points (tracked on an experience-attached HUD) to "buy" some bad hair I'll never wear again, and a pair of flats that weren't half bad.

I really have no idea what's there now but if it's already something they implement, they should expand on it when the NUX avatar goes live.  Having well made clothing, hair, shoes, accessories available for new users would, IMO, keep people a bit longer so they can then explore what else SL has to offer.  Givng people crap just seems to show how little LL cares about new users.  "Is this the kind of stuff they offer? "  

[Silent Mistwalker]

46 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I proposed an entire secondary currency with high value proposition to new users an optional worthless guff to the established player base (save for being useful to large land owners potentially reducing our rent)

Everyone loved that.

I swear, half the people on the forum are just here to argue. If SL closed, they wouldn't notice.

If SL closed so would the forum. They'd notice.

[Silent Mistwalker]

38 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I'm finding the whole Maslow's Stair model rather misplaced to be honest, the needs of a human being and what the content of Second Life should focus on aren't the same thing; SL has never pretended to be a substitute for real life, nor a simulation thereof.

   Of course, it can be used to simulate things, but that's not "what it is". It's a thing where you can play something as simple as tic-tac-toe, or chess, or D&D, or lay Patience (solitaire, for ye across-the-ponders), or build a memorial, or a theme park, or an art gallery, or a brothel, or a racing track for cars, or bikes, or rocket-propelled penguins. To try to make SL be about feeding your avi like some MMO Tamagotchi would be to detract from what makes SL what it is; a true sandbox experience far more complex than Minecraft or any other video game could ever dream of achieving. 

   Besides, there's been no shortage of wannabe-Minecraft clones throughout the years that came and went unnoticed by the 'mainstream', so I think it'd be silly to expect SL-goes-survival-sandbox to be any more of a commercial success than World of Cubes or Block Craft 3D. 

Ditto.

I play a few survival games and have been playing them for many years. I don't come to SL for survival. I come to relax, create and hopefully make a long-term friend or two. Well... two out of three isn't bad.

[Orwar]

2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I come to relax, create and hopefully make a long-term friend or two. Well... two out of three isn't bad.

   You should aim for three out of three - relaxation is important! 

[Silent Mistwalker]

5 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   You should aim for three out of three - relaxation is important! 

That's the easy one. 🤣