New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[Quartz Mole]

26 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The Linden response is not from the Lindens that specialize in land and land development.  Not all Lindens are experts in everything.   Testing shows your assumptions are wrong.  Zoha will explain how they can assign estate manager options on ONLY the region a renter "owns". Since they are in the land business, I will take their explanation as facts.

Don't forget that the estate owner can split their holdings up into several smaller separate estates.  I don't know offhand if they can do that in the viewer or if they have to ask Linden Lab to do it for them, but that's certainly an option.  It is, in fact, what the Land specialist I asked to clarify this suggested.    To allow bots into some regions on an estate you own but not onto others, you'll need split the estate up into smaller ones with separate settings.

[belindacarson]

18 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

Don't forget that the estate owner can split their holdings up into several smaller separate estates.  I don't know offhand if they can do that in the viewer or if they have to ask Linden Lab to do it for them, but that's certainly an option.  It is, in fact, what the Land specialist I asked to clarify this suggested.    To allow bots into some regions on an estate you own but not onto others, you'll need split the estate up into smaller ones with separate settings.

and you just backed me up completely

 

no more misinformation.

[Jaylinbridges]

31 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

Don't forget that the estate owner can split their holdings up into several smaller separate estates.  I don't know offhand if they can do that in the viewer or if they have to ask Linden Lab to do it for them, but that's certainly an option.  It is, in fact, what the Land specialist I asked to clarify this suggested.    To allow bots into some regions on an estate you own but not onto others, you'll need split the estate up into smaller ones with separate settings.

That was one of my suggestions on how Zoha does it. But the rented region is still owned by Zoha, so they have control but still give each region owner full permissions for only his rented region.  Anyway Mr Zoha is moving today and will be back tomorrow to explain how they routinely do this for the hundreds of full regions they rent.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

10 hours ago, Quartz Mole said:

Don't forget that the estate owner can split their holdings up into several smaller separate estates.  I don't know offhand if they can do that in the viewer or if they have to ask Linden Lab to do it for them, but that's certainly an option.  It is, in fact, what the Land specialist I asked to clarify this suggested.    To allow bots into some regions on an estate you own but not onto others, you'll need split the estate up into smaller ones with separate settings.

it will be interesting to see how many estate owners do this to accommodate the various needs of their tenants. It would be time-consuming and possibly impossible, given that regions are not always going to have tenants who agree unanimously on one course or another.

I still think that parcel-level controls are the way to go on this. It doesn't solve the data-scraping issue, but we have the new scripted agent guidelines and the "use of private information" document to at least mitigate concerns about that.

[Sid Nagy]

3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

it will be interesting to see how many estate owners do this to accommodate the various needs of their tenants.

They will split up their estates in the end, so that they can offer land with and without the bot denying option on.
Just like they do with several options of land usage. (mostly through the use of different covenants).

Most land barons have a huge diversity in regions and region use.
It will take a few weeks/months to sink in, but they will follow what their tenants demand and appreciate.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Quartz Mole]

If you think someone has posted something that is mistaken about facts, please correct them politely with a reference, or ask in the thread for clarification -- if it's something one of the moderators can answer, we will do, or we'll try to find out the answer.

Please, though, don't launch general attacks on people's credibility on the lines of "you were wrong about such-and-such earlier in the thread " (or, even worse, that they were wrong about something completely different in another thread) "so why should anyone believe anything you say now?"

That kind of argument, if you feel you must conduct it, belongs in private messages, not the public forums.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

If you think someone has posted something that is mistaken about facts, please correct them politely with a reference, or ask in the thread for clarification -- if it's something one of the moderators can answer, we will do, or we'll try to find out the answer.

Please, though, don't launch general attacks on people's credibility on the lines of "you were wrong about such-and-such earlier in the thread " (or, even worse, that they were wrong about something completely different in another thread) "so why should anyone believe anything you say now?"

That kind of argument, if you feel you must conduct it, belongs in private messages, not the public forums.

Thanks, you are doing an incredible job!

* The word choice "incredible" was only ironic, not sarcasm at all!

[Caeruleiae]

17 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Certainly doesn't ease my concern about data scraping bots and publishing it outside of S/L. Where is the Lab's resolution for that?

Despite any policies that ll may write and may force people to agree to in order to use the service-they actually can't stop this practice. Data collection is a constantly evolving entity all unto itself-in every aspect of life-online and not. That said-one doesn't need a bot to do this.  Policies put into place by ll may say-no you can't do that we said you can't it's now against our terms-but unless they remove any and all people who could do this that's really all it is. Much like laws don't stop criminals they just tell us how to handle them after they commit a crime-these kinds of policies are the same-which is of course by design. 

While a bot or army of them can obviously do this and perform this data scraping on a larger scale in less time and way more efficiently-there is nothing that stops any human from doing it on a smaller scale and lengthier time frame. Any data a bot could likely scrape from sl-a script or individual could too if they really wanted to and had the knowledge. That data can then be taken outside of sl and used however someone wants to use it. Please note I am not saying anyone should do this-or that I condone it-just that it is possible-it's always going to be possible as its the nature of data collection itself. It's entirely possible many have already done this very thing and have some kind of database outside of sl that none of us are aware of. What data it has and what they do with it-who knows-but it's very possible. The one thing this whole bot issue has proven to people is that such collection and use has always been possible-and we have to be as vigilant as possible with the information we do offer ourselves while remembering that there is a lot of data available to others just because we exist. Its almost a catch 22 really. Your mere existence in the real world presents the same problem-there is always going to be data about you which others can collect-and there's no way to stop that either. 

[Love Zhaoying]

59 minutes ago, Caeruleiae said:

18 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Certainly doesn't ease my concern about data scraping bots and publishing it outside of S/L. Where is the Lab's resolution for that?

Despite any policies that ll may write and may force people to agree to in order to use the service-they actually can't stop this practice. Data collection is a constantly evolving entity all unto itself-in every aspect of life-online and not. That said-one doesn't need a bot to do this.  Policies put into place by ll may say-no you can't do that we said you can't it's now against our terms-but unless they remove any and all people who could do this that's really all it is. Much like laws don't stop criminals they just tell us how to handle them after they commit a crime-these kinds of policies are the same-which is of course by design. 

While a bot or army of them can obviously do this and perform this data scraping on a larger scale in less time and way more efficiently-there is nothing that stops any human from doing it on a smaller scale and lengthier time frame. Any data a bot could likely scrape from sl-a script or individual could too if they really wanted to and had the knowledge. 

Gee, all you need to do is download and install "UiPath", and learn how to use it.  It can "scrape" data from any Windows program. It is used for legitimate reasons by companies small and large.  I guess my point is, that I agree with you.

Most people who talk about the "data scraping" possibility do not realize this is possible with most any program like Second Life lately, and there is no way to hold Linden Lab accountable - because they (Linden Lab) are not "responsible" for what bad actors do with "data scraping".  It is merely ironic that automation created with such "data scraping" applications (such as "UiPath", the only one I have used), is often referred to as..bots.

So, circling back to the subject of "deny entry to Scripted Agents":

My understanding is: a) there is no LSL function to CHECK the "deny entry" status, and b) except for Estate Managers there is no GUI screen to CHECK the "deny entry" status (not counting the Debug setting).  So, there is no way to get either via LSL function,  or by "scraping" the status of "deny entry to Scripted Agents"..?  If so, good deal! Keep privacy settings private!

..Unless I am wrong and the "deny entry to bots" Debug setting can be checked by "anyone"?  If I am wrong and anyone (random users) can check this Debug setting, do they have to at least be IN the Estate in question to check it?

 

[Istelathis]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Gee, all you need to do is download and install "UiPath", and learn how to use it.  It can "scrape" data from any Windows program. It is used for legitimate reasons by companies small and large.  I guess my point is, that I agree with you.

I wonder just how far out the viewer can track residents from, with firestorm my limitation was 1024  which gave me a little over 50 regions of coverage.  The data from residents as far as their name and location is already present by default, I don't know if the servers are pushing out the profiles and that information is downloaded by default as well, or if there is a separate request made to fetch profiles each time you view one.

One possible workaround, if profiles have to be fetched by request of us is to throttle how many can be viewed, it would have to be coordinated with limiting profile views via the web as well.  The immediate downside of doing that, which I could think of, is people would just make more bots to bypass such a limitation which would serve to only congest the grid even more with bots.

Plus who knows what sort of impact that would have on SL, it is never as simple as we would like it to be.  For example, LL could just make everyone out of view entirely of parcels and no one's data is able to be obtained outside of a shorter range, but then I am sure in the process it would break something else I am not even aware of.

It definitely is not going to be a simple task for them if they want to provide the level of privacy a lot of people want.  In the meantime for anyone reading this and concerned about their privacy, it is better just to take precautions such as adjust your profiles to what you feel comfortable with sharing to the world, and don't do what you wouldn't want your grandmother to know you are doing 😜  I mean grandma is such a sweet lady, that makes wonderful cookies for us, and well, we don't want to lose that!

Realistically though, most people are not going to care.  Your SL data is not important to most other people, I think with the advances as of late with chatGPT, has really had a lot of people worrying about privacy as it just so happens to coincide with the anxiety that I see becoming more prevalent.  All of this data scraping has been possible in the past, so nothing has really changed that much.  Huge networks running really sophisticated AI is not likely going to waste their resources on our Second Lives.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Istelathis

[Sid Nagy]

 

33 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

Realistically though, most people are not going to care.  Your SL data is not important to most other people, I think with the advances as of late with chatGPT, has really had a lot of people worrying about privacy as it just so happens to coincide with the anxiety that I see becoming more prevalent.  All of this data scraping has been possible in the past, so nothing has really changed that much.  Huge networks running really sophisticated AI is not likely going to waste their resources on our Second Lives.

Not likely is not the same as not.
Internet data gathering goes as fast as lightning and they certainly will not exclude SL data that they find on the web.
And the big data scrapers like google are amazing in analyzing and combining data.
Once ones SL data are combined with ones RL data the not so fun part can happen IMHO.

There are a lot of people with activities in SL that they are not keen about sharing in RL. Not even with Google or better said especially not with Google. Bosses, spouses, family members and HR sometimes use Google for background checks for instance.

The data gathering in RL becomes more and more creepy, no need to add people's SL data to that if it can be avoided.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[EliseAnne85]

5 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

They will split up their estates in the end, so that they can offer land with and without the bot denying option on.
Just like they do with several options of land usage. (mostly through the use of different covenants).

Most land barons have a huge diversity in regions and region use.
It will take a few weeks/months to sink in, but they will follow what their tenants demand and appreciate.

I think this ^^ is the most likely outcome.

But, I have a question, not directed at Sid Nagy, just a general question to anyone who might know.

What if estate owners need their scripted agents to run their estates.  So, now these are whitelisted scripted agents by the estate owners, so will that whitelist carry thru to all split off "estates/regions/parcels" even if some of the people want to set deny_bots?  How will this work - estate owner needs scripted agent(s), but someone wants to deny them?  

Edited April 7, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Istelathis]

@Sid Nagy At this time, the legalities of doing so are beyond my knowledge.  Using AI chatbots, and trying to piece together our SL to our RL, is not something I am aware of.  I don't think right now, google provides any service to the public for background checks that would include such things as what we are doing on the Internet, surely it will display where we have left our presence on the web, such as this forum though.  I can likewise find my SL profile from google, but as far as linking my real life to SL, that does not appear to be taking place.  I could see individuals trying to do so though, using google as a tool to piece together any of our SL to our RL.  

 

[Sid Nagy]

Profile is not the issue.
Everyone can control their own profile.

But what about Johnathan Seagull who has a spanking horse in his SL home and a few spanking animations in some furniture, visits a few Zindra clubs every night, is member of two Gor related groups. All harvested by scripted agents, then combined and put on a web data base. Google finds it, combines it and the Seagull account tuns out to be linked to a staff member of a RL multi national.
Good luck with that mr Seagull.

AI is based for an awful lot on what the web crawlers feed the AI program. That is for sure.
I'm not willing to give ChatGPT my email adress, but "Who is the person behind Sid Nagy from Second Life?"  or "What do you know about Sid Magy in Secondlife?"would be nice test questions.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Ardy Lay]

18 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Profile is not the issue.
Everyone can control their own profile.

But what about Johnathan Seagull who buys a spanking horse and a few spanking animations on the marketplace, visits a few Zindra clubs every night, is member of two Gor related groups. All harvested by scripted agents, then combined and put on a web data base. Google finds it, combines it and the Seagull account tuns out to be linked to a staff member of a RL multi national.
Good luck with that mr Seagull.

AI is based for an awful lot on what the web crawlers feed the AI program. That is for sure.

Did he use a Gmail account for registration to or as contact information for his Second Life account that made those purchases?

Who uses Google's DNS?  Nobody here?  Good.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Ardy Lay

[Ardy Lay]

One can almost hear the machines making connections if one tries.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Ardy Lay

[Sid Nagy]

1 minute ago, Ardy Lay said:

Did he use a Gmail account for registration to or as contact information for his Second Life account that made those purchases?

I changed my text. Using the marketplace was a wrong example.

[Istelathis]

@Sid NagyWhat I am saying, is that Google is not likely to link Jonathan Seagull to his real life identity and provide that information to the public.  Individuals might do so, they could find out who JS is, dox him, and google might list that information on their search results if it is on the web though.  

 

[Innula Zenovka]

20 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

I'm not willing to give ChatGPT my email adress, but "Who is the person behind Sid Nagy from Second Life?"  or "What do you know about Sid Magy in Secondlife?"would be nice test questions.

I asked it for you

[Jennifer Boyle]

2 hours ago, Istelathis said:

Realistically though, most people are not going to care.  

My unscientific, anecdotal observations lead me to believe that most people don't care. I have voiced my opinion previously that a vocal minority of residents is responsible for the uproar about bonniebots and that most residents don't care. I have taken to asking people I encounter inworld what they think about bonniebots. Most are unaware of them and when told what they are and what they do, don't care.

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

There are a lot of people with activities in SL that they are not keen about sharing in RL. Not even with Google or better said especially not with Google. Bosses, spouses, family members and HR sometimes use Google for background checks for instance.

There sure are a lot of such people. Many, many residents enjoy SL as a fantasyland where they can roleplay things that they can't or won't do IRL. If they are prudent, they protect their RL selves by not revealing RL information that can be used to identify the accountholder. If you don't reveal RL information, the wellbeing of your RL self will not be affected by what anyone knows about your avatar.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

5 hours ago, Caeruleiae said:

Despite any policies that ll may write and may force people to agree to in order to use the service-they actually can't stop this practice. Data collection is a constantly evolving entity all unto itself-in every aspect of life-online and not. That said-one doesn't need a bot to do this.  Policies put into place by ll may say-no you can't do that we said you can't it's now against our terms-but unless they remove any and all people who could do this that's really all it is. Much like laws don't stop criminals they just tell us how to handle them after they commit a crime-these kinds of policies are the same-which is of course by design. 

It is a given that data collection can be done, the question is to what degree LL allows and or condones it. Especially if the data is being harvested internally from within the world. We can talk all day about data security within S/L but if the data is all there open and available to anyone wishing to gather it up, the security aspect is moot. The question is will LL take action against those who gather the data and publish it outside of the SecondLife website(s).

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Gee, all you need to do is download and install "UiPath", and learn how to use it.  It can "scrape" data from any Windows program. It is used for legitimate reasons by companies small and large.  I guess my point is, that I agree with you.

Most people who talk about the "data scraping" possibility do not realize this is possible with most any program like Second Life lately, and there is no way to hold Linden Lab accountable - because they (Linden Lab) are not "responsible" for what bad actors do with "data scraping".  It is merely ironic that automation created with such "data scraping" applications (such as "UiPath", the only one I have used), is often referred to as..bots.

So, circling back to the subject of "deny entry to Scripted Agents":

My understanding is: a) there is no LSL function to CHECK the "deny entry" status, and b) except for Estate Managers there is no GUI screen to CHECK the "deny entry" status (not counting the Debug setting).  So, there is no way to get either via LSL function,  or by "scraping" the status of "deny entry to Scripted Agents"..?  If so, good deal! Keep privacy settings private!

..Unless I am wrong and the "deny entry to bots" Debug setting can be checked by "anyone"?  If I am wrong and anyone (random users) can check this Debug setting, do they have to at least be IN the Estate in question to check it?

 

Well circling back to the topic about data and or profile privacy, your very mention of bigger and better tools for data collection is interesting from the perspective and contrast of the various product copying tools available. The topic here is we the product, also called the residents, should have the same degree of protection at the very least that objects, scripts, textures and animations are being afforded. Or do you feel those are more important then the people who use them?

[Sid Nagy]

5 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I asked it for you

Thanks for the test @Innula Zenovka.
Interesting that the program does not say it doesn't know. It states it will not tell without consent.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

Interesting that the program does not say it doesn't know. It states it will not tell without consent.

That is no different than modern websites that don't say you got the password wrong, they say you got either the user ID or the password wrong (but not which). Basic security these days. 

[Sid Nagy]

11 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

Did he use a Gmail account for registration to or as contact information for his Second Life account that made those purchases?

Who uses Google's DNS?  Nobody here?  Good.

Most halfway good secured e-mail services like proton mail ain't even accepted by LL when you sign up for a new account.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

My unscientific, anecdotal observations lead me to believe that most people don't care. I have voiced my opinion previously that a vocal minority of residents is responsible for the uproar about bonniebots and that most residents don't care. I have taken to asking people I encounter inworld what they think about bonniebots. Most are unaware of them and when told what they are and what they do, don't care.

 

Interesting your take on it  in that I have had several people ask me in IM why a 13 year old account such as mine is devoid of any information outside of a Profile picture. I told each and everyone about the BB site linking their profiles and the ramifications of that and each of those people cared very much and went to dig up more information on it. I'd say it if was general knowledge there would be quite a bit more verbiage about it and I think the Lab knows it and tried their best to close off any discussions about it.