New Feature: Scripted Agent Estate Access Discussion

[belindacarson]

1 minute ago, bunboxmomo said:

For petes sake Beli, so why are you against us getting clarification from LL themselves, don't be so attached to "being right" and lets just ask so we can clear this up? Surely it's better rather than "no I'm right vs no I'm right!"

But I *am* correct.

 

if you feel you need somebody to confirm this, then that's up to you.

 

Personally, I just don't like to see incorrect information (including claiming to be able to scan for HUD attachments, which is blatantly incorrect) to be posted.  That only serves to confuse people, or "trigger" certain kinds of people.  Having the correct information allows people to make educated, informed, statements, and helps most users.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

But you are still posting incorrect information, whereas I chose to post correct information.

 

That is what causes people to react.  The whole bot situation is giving some people (not me personally) issues, so by giving correct information, it helps to ease these concerns.

At the end of the day very few care anyway as the region/estate thing is not a resolution to what it was initially about anyway. Just a distraction. Certainly doesn't ease my concern about data scraping bots and publishing it outside of S/L. Where is the Lab's resolution for that?

[belindacarson]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

At the end of the day very few care anyway as the region/estate thing is not a resolution to what it was initially about anyway. Just a distraction. Certainly doesn't ease my concern about data scraping bots and publishing it outside of S/L. Where is the Lab's resolution for that?

In the new scripted agents policy.

[bunboxmomo]

5 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

But I *am* correct.

if you feel you need somebody to confirm this, then that's up to you.

 

Ok that's great, hopefully you are right, I would like that to be the case.
There is no sarcasm here whatsoever, I genuinely do hope that is the case and we can be happy together if we get clarification!

I do appreciate your input, but I would like to hear confirmation of that from LL themselves considering the potential scale of the affected scope of regions.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Rowan Amore]

How do I set the deny_bots flag using the Region/Estate window?

In some viewers, the deny_bots flag can be set using the World > Region/Estate > Estate tab interface. Under the Anyone can visit setting, check the box next to Must not be a scripted agent, then click Apply. This will set the deny_bots flag and prevent identified scripted agents from visiting regions in the estate.

It says nothing about having this option on the Region tab in the window.  If one were to Enable Bots in the estate window, it would allow bots in ALL regions.  I can't see an Estate owner allowing a region owner to.change that.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, belindacarson said:

In the new scripted agents policy.

Only if they actually act on it and they don't have a good past reputation for doing that.

[Ceka Cianci]

30 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, if you have bought a single region from LL (not from a land baron), you'd still have both estate and region rights.

Ya, that's what I had originally thought at the start, then heard what sounded like it wasn't that, then put  back around to it was that.. So that was a relief.. hehehehe

30 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But in practice a HUGE number of private regions are in the hands of a relatively small number of land barons / estate owners, which would mean (if this is correct) they would have an enormously outsized influence on how many regions actually permit bots. So, yeah -- essentially the success or failure of this initiative is going to be in the hands of "the ultra rich."

Just like RL! 

Coffee's feeling that this is a good thing is premised on the assumption that most or all estate owners will ban bots. I don't have any reason to believe that that is likely to be the case.

I'm sure if they get enough feed back, the bigger estate owners are going to do what serves them best.. If they start losing renters to those  that have that option turned on, you can bet they'll flip the switch.. Or if for some reason it went the other way, they wouldn't flip it

Since there is no in world news letter other than word of mouth, it may take time to get around that they have this option..

I'm not as much concerned with if they want to turn it on or not..I'm sure they would have their reasons for going either way..

I don't really come down too hard on big land owners, because it's not like real world land.. If they go, the land goes too and the world gets smaller, where in RL only the owners come and go.. But it would really chap my hide if they were getting more options like that one, because they had more.. It wouldn't be them I would be upset with. It would be the ones giving out the privileges..

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by Ceka Cianci
Tappy tap typoes.

[belindacarson]

3 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Ok that's great, hopefully you are right, I would like that to be the case.
There is no sarcasm here whatsoever, I genuinely do hope that is the case and we can be happy together if we get clarification!

I do appreciate your input, but I would like to hear confirmation of that from LL themselves.

That's of no worry to me since I've posted correct information to hopefully try and reassure anybody who saw your incorrect information including your claim to be able to scan for HUD attachments.

[bunboxmomo]

1 minute ago, belindacarson said:

That's of no worry to me since I've posted correct information to hopefully try and reassure anybody who saw your incorrect information including your claim to be able to scan for HUD attachments.

I thought I already said it was 10 years ago and cut me some slack on misremembering a detail, like I told you we scanned for something so it was probably teeth instead. Is that really why you're jumping on this so hard?

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Quartz Mole]

2 hours ago, bunboxmomo said:

Then we need clarification on if this is a Region level function, or an Estate level function, but all the correspondance we've had from Linden Labs says it is an estate function, not region.

 

@Quartz Mole sorry to bother you, but can we have clarification on this bit in the thread to clear this up?

As far as I know, it's an estate setting, though you can, of course, allow individual scripted agents access to particular regions by adding them to the allowed list.   

I've messaged someone who will know for sure, though, and will update this post if it turns out I'm mistaken.

ETA:  I've had confirmation that it's strictly an estate-level setting, so it can't be over-ridden at the region level unless the estate owner moves the region into a separate estate.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Quartz Mole

[bunboxmomo]

6 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

As far as I know, it's an estate setting, though you can, of course, allow individual scripted agents access to particular regions by adding them to the allowed list.   

I've messaged someone who will know for sure, though, and will update this post if it turns out I'm mistaken.

Thank you quartz!
Ok so if we're understanding your reply *to your current understanding pending a response from another at person LL*,

The setting is estate wide, but individual bots can be added to an estate's allow list?
But the deny_bots flag itself is estate wide?

Just to make sure we're understanding right (pending the confirmation of course)

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[belindacarson]

Just now, bunboxmomo said:

Thank you quartz!
Ok so if we're understanding your reply *to your current understanding pending a response from another person LL*,

The setting is estate wide, but individual bots can be added to a region's allow list?
But the deny_bots flag itself is estate wide?

Just to make sure we're understanding right (pending the confirmation of course)

The setting is estate wide, but as stated, can be over ridden by a person who has EM rights on a sim that they rent.  Equally that person with EM rights can whitelist a "bot" at the estate level regardless of setting (and yes, I've tested this xD).  I love correct information, as it gives users an honest and correct set of info to make their own choices with.

[bunboxmomo]

Just now, belindacarson said:

The setting is estate wide, but as stated, can be over ridden by a person who has EM rights on a sim that they rent.  Equally that person with EM rights can whitelist a "bot" at the estate level regardless of setting (and yes, I've tested this xD).  I love correct information, as it gives users an honest and correct set of info to make their own choices with.

Can you please just let quartz reply instead of answering for him about his own post, so we don't create further confusion in either direction be it my own or yours?

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[M Peccable]

4 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Thank you quartz!
Ok so if we're understanding your reply *to your current understanding pending a response from another at person LL*,

The setting is estate wide, but individual bots can be added to a region's allow list?
But the deny_bots flag itself is estate wide?

Just to make sure we're understanding right (pending the confirmation of course)

The wording of the official release says you can add whitelisted bots to the estate's allowed list, not the region's whitelist.

Quote

When deny_bots is ON, all scripted agents that are not explicitly listed in the estate’s Allowed Access list will be denied access to all of the regions within the Estate.

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by M Peccable

[Quartz Mole]

21 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I do think we need a clarification from above on whether this can be applied on a region-by-region basis; we're spinning our wheels at the moment.

Not sure which Linden fronted this part of the equation, but I'm sure @Quartz Molecan find out for us. And of course earn our eternal gratitude  . . .

I'm trying to get a definitive answer, but I'm an estate manager for several Linden estates and, in the latest Official Viewer, I can see a setting on the Estate tab of World>Region/Estate that would let me ban or allow bots over the whole estate 

However, I can't see anything similar on any of the region settings that would allow me to override the Estate setting other than by allowing/banning named bots on particular regions.

This leads me to think it really is an estate-wide setting.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Quartz Mole

[bunboxmomo]

1 minute ago, M Peccable said:

The wording of the official release says you can add whitelisted bots to the estate's allowed list, not the region's whitelist.

 

Oops, good catch, edited what I wrote to make sure I'm confirming it correctly.

[bunboxmomo]

4 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

I'm trying to get a definitive answer, but I'm an estate manager for several Linden estates and, in the latest Official Viewer, I can see a setting on the Estate tab of World>Region/Estate that would let me ban or allow bots over the whole estate 

However, I can't see anything similar on any of the region settings that would allow me to override the Estate setting other than by allowing/banning named bots on particular regions.

This leads me to think it really is an estate-wide setting.

Thank you for the confirmation Quartz, we appreciate it and we appreciate you going the extra mile to reach out and double check with other staff.

(ok now I need to dip out before the store closes)

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[belindacarson]

2 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Can you please just let quartz reply instead of answering for him about his own post, so we don't create further confusion in either direction be it my own or yours?

There's no confusion.

 

My answers are prompted by things I have tested, and please feel free to test these things yourself.

Just for the sake of clarity: I rent a homestead, I have Estate manager rights, I was able to toggle no-bots on/off via the LL viewer despite the Estate owner setting it globally, it applied to my homestead only, I had a friend with a registered bot (a store bot) test this out for me, so that I could provide correct information to users.

It saves on posting incorrect information, including claiming you can scan for HUD attachments which simply isn't possible.

 

Please, feel free to test this yourself, and correct me if I'm wrong.

[Quartz Mole]

9 minutes ago, bunboxmomo said:

Thank you quartz!
Ok so if we're understanding your reply *to your current understanding pending a response from another at person LL*,

The setting is estate wide, but individual bots can be added to an estate's allow list?
But the deny_bots flag itself is estate wide?

Just to make sure we're understanding right (pending the confirmation of course)

That's certainly my understanding.   You can allow or ban bots across the entire estate, but any exceptions at the region level have to be made by allowing/banning individual named bots on that region.

[Paul Hexem]

1 minute ago, belindacarson said:

There's no confusion.

 

My answers are prompted by things I have tested, and please feel free to test these things yourself.

Just for the sake of clarity: I rent a homestead, I have Estate manager rights, I was able to toggle no-bots on/off via the LL viewer despite the Estate owner setting it globally, it applied to my homestead only, I had a friend with a registered bot (a store bot) test this out for me, so that I could provide correct information to users.

It saves on posting incorrect information, including claiming you can scan for HUD attachments which simply isn't possible.

 

Please, feel free to test this yourself, and correct me if I'm wrong.

... Are you not reading the Mole responses before and after your own? Might need to let the ego go a little bit here.

[bunboxmomo]

5 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

There's no confusion.

 

My answers are prompted by things I have tested, and please feel free to test these things yourself.

Just for the sake of clarity: I rent a homestead, I have Estate manager rights, I was able to toggle no-bots on/off via the LL viewer despite the Estate owner setting it globally, it applied to my homestead only, I had a friend with a registered bot (a store bot) test this out for me, so that I could provide correct information to users.

It saves on posting incorrect information, including claiming you can scan for HUD attachments which simply isn't possible.

 

Please, feel free to test this yourself, and correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm just going to start ignoring you at this point, I'm sorry but I've tried in good faith to talk with you about this multiple times and it's just being met with hostility and my actual question ignored/distorted each time.
 

I don't feel there is a good faith exchange going on so it's better we leave it there.

Edited April 6, 2023 by bunboxmomo

[Istelathis]

11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

At the end of the day very few care anyway as the region/estate thing is not a resolution to what it was initially about anyway. Just a distraction. Certainly doesn't ease my concern about data scraping bots and publishing it outside of S/L. Where is the Lab's resolution for that?

I don't think there is much they can do about it, outside of banning all bots entirely and actively seeking them out.  That would cause quite the uproar though, as people use them as NPCs for a variety of functions.  Which I can completely understand their perspective.  

To prevent such an uproar, I would again suggest NPCs be hosted on LLs side complete with a variety of functions that are typically used, where LL has more control over them.  But this too would be a significant time sink for LL, yet - I think if Opensim can do it, then perhaps, just possibly LL should be able to accomplish this task as well.  Not to mention, I think it would be to their benefit as AI becomes more advanced, people will probably want to have bots, so acting now rather than just blacklisting them entirely, would serve a purpose for future advancements.

As it stands now, estate wide bans serve the purpose in as far that it appeals to those who worry about bots scraping their data, while realistically as you and others understand it, those who would seek to scrape data for malicious intent don't really care about registering them with LL.  

Whatever does or does not happen, it is not going to be a simple solution that we can expect to be done in the short term future.  Banning bots entirely from SL is probably not a good idea until they find something that can replace their purpose though.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

How do I set the deny_bots flag using the Region/Estate window?

In some viewers, the deny_bots flag can be set using the World > Region/Estate > Estate tab interface. Under the Anyone can visit setting, check the box next to Must not be a scripted agent, then click Apply. This will set the deny_bots flag and prevent identified scripted agents from visiting regions in the estate.

It says nothing about having this option on the Region tab in the window.  If one were to Enable Bots in the estate window, it would allow bots in ALL regions.  I can't see an Estate owner allowing a region owner to.change that.

 

Hmm, I can't even see that option on Firestorm. Everything else is there but the scripted agent button. I was going to ask if there's a way for a lowbie parcel "owner" (renter with parcel rights) on a private island to tell whether or not the Estate Owner has flipped the scripted agent switch or not, but I suppose...not?

I could always ask them, but I'm with a company that owns over 900 regions, so um, I'd rather not bother customer service with a question like that. 😄

[M Peccable]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I was going to ask if there's a way for a lowbie parcel "owner" (renter with parcel rights) on a private island to tell whether or not the Estate Owner has flipped the scripted agent switch or not, but I suppose...not?

You could go to the SL website, change one of your alts to "scripted agent", then see if they can get to your region. Caveat: There may be a delay in setting the alt's scripted agent status and when it actually takes effect in world.

[Quartz Mole]

3 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Hmm, I can't even see that option on Firestorm. Everything else is there but the scripted agent button. I was going to ask if there's a way for a lowbie parcel "owner" (renter with parcel rights) on a private island to tell whether or not the Estate Owner has flipped the scripted agent switch or not, but I suppose...not?

I could always ask them, but I'm with a company that owns over 900 regions, so um, I'd rather not bother customer service with a question like that. 😄

Take a look at https://lindenlab.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/31000169561-scripted-agent-estate-access-faq#How-do-I-confirm-that-my-region-is-obeying-the-Estate-setting-for-deny_bots?

While obviously you need to be an Estate Manager to change the access settings using the console window,  you might be able to check whether the setting is on or off by using the:

• Open the Region Debug window from the menu item:
  Develop > Consoles > Region Debug Console

• Type into the command line:

get deny_bots