bunboxmomo

Alright thanks, I went ahead and made a JIRA new feature request.

.....so we're moving the goalposts and now apparently the lindens themselves must be mistaken because they're not the *right kind* of lindens, rather than considering *maybe* you're mistaken. Ok. This discussion serves no purpose if this is the circle it's going to go on. Good luck to you all. Thankfully there are some reasonable and rational people here actually talking about things and I have faith the conversation will ultimately be benefitted by those people. I'd hoped we could discuss it first to find something we all feel would be great to see, but this doesn't feel like this kind of discussion is going to happen, so I'll go ahead and make the JIRA request myself. Take care all.

Beli, for god's sake. I have corrected that misremembering of mine from 10 years ago *THREE* times now. But even then, just because I misremembered a detail from 10 years ago, does not mean you should be outright ignoring even what the lindens say. Things are not that black and white.

Yes it is rediculous, but that's what has just been confirmed and I think we all agree we'd like this to be applyable for regions too. If you're not even going to listen to actual lindens on this now, there is no point in this discussion because you aren't listening to actual things that actual staff are bringing to the thread and this is going to go nowhere. Lets try have an actual discussion. Also Estate Manager is not the same thing as Region Owner. Region Owner gives *ontop of EM access* abilities to control other things, such as the RAW that is used for the terrain map. While EMs have terraforming permissions, they do *not* have the ability to bake, download or upload RAWS. This is limited to RO. Zoha is offering you *EM* rights there, not *RO* rights. This appears to be the source of the confusion so let me repeat this in clear not uncertain terms. Estate Manager is NOT the same as Region Owner. Region Owner is inbetween the permissions of Estate Manager and Estate Owner. You can be assigned to an EM position of a region by the Region Owner. Some barons give RO permissions *and* EM permissions, some ONLY give EM permissions. Region Owner has access to some permissions that EM does not. (RAWs for example) You can be an EM of one, multiple or all regions within an Estate. Please consider, if your own understanding is conflicting with information given by the lindens themselves, it is possible that your own understanding may be mistaken or the method by which you tested may be mistaken, or you may be misunderstanding what is being said. But all that aside, that's not what we're talking about (or trying to, but this is getting very noisy static on the line) What is being said, is that because there is no region level setting for this in the backend, this ends up solely an estate wide permission (as the lindens themselves have confirmed). The result of this is that in the case of mega-estates like those of land barons that rent out full regions (and give EITHER EM OR RO OR BOTH), that these regions are unable to apply deny_bots without it affecting the entire region. I understand some people here are very attached to their positions, but we've had linden confirmation of this, can we please move forwards on this and discuss ideas for a feature we can suggest on the JIRA that will allow the vast amount of private islands that are baron owned, to also be able to choose to deny_bots without having to convince an estate owner to apply this to the hundreds of regions they own, as in most cases an EO would generally refuse to do this due to the different needs of their customers, leaving these regions as a result unable to ban bots.

Thank you! Yeah that clears it up, we appreciate it! Ok so we do then have an implementation gap for private island regions where the estate owner is a land baron where the renting resident (Be they EM or Region Owner) is unable to implement the flag individually on the region. Kristin, how viable would it be to add an additional region level deny_bots flag (of course an Estate level enabled flag would override the region level disabled flag)?

Last post out of me in this sub-thread Beli. Please actually read responses from Quartz? This is getting silly. Ok thats all you get out of me now.

As I understand based on my reading of the setting and Quartz's posts estate-wide setting would be reflected, but we were seeing about cases where an estate *does not* have the setting, but a *region owner* who is *not* the estate owner, would be able to set deny_bots on the region they have RO rights too. Which unless I'm mistaken, I think Ayashe is talking about the typical usecase, where all renters are EMs of their own region, instead of being ROs. What we were asking/talking about was if deny_bots can be enabled on an individual region inside an estate, without it being on the entire estate. That's what we reached out to ask/confirm.

I'm just going to start ignoring you at this point, I'm sorry but I've tried in good faith to talk with you about this multiple times and it's just being met with hostility and my actual question ignored/distorted each time. I don't feel there is a good faith exchange going on so it's better we leave it there.

Thank you for the confirmation Quartz, we appreciate it and we appreciate you going the extra mile to reach out and double check with other staff. (ok now I need to dip out before the store closes)

Oops, good catch, edited what I wrote to make sure I'm confirming it correctly.

Can you please just let quartz reply instead of answering for him about his own post, so we don't create further confusion in either direction be it my own or yours?

Thank you quartz! Ok so if we're understanding your reply *to your current understanding pending a response from another at person LL*, The setting is estate wide, but individual bots can be added to an estate's allow list? But the deny_bots flag itself is estate wide? Just to make sure we're understanding right (pending the confirmation of course)

I thought I already said it was 10 years ago and cut me some slack on misremembering a detail, like I told you we scanned for something so it was probably teeth instead. Is that really why you're jumping on this so hard?

Ok that's great, hopefully you are right, I would like that to be the case. There is no sarcasm here whatsoever, I genuinely do hope that is the case and we can be happy together if we get clarification! I do appreciate your input, but I would like to hear confirmation of that from LL themselves considering the potential scale of the affected scope of regions.

We specifically need to know if the deny_bots flag can exist on a region independently of the setting on the estate as a whole. (Obviously though deny_bots on an estate, would apply to all regions.) As in if an estate can *not* have deny_bots enabled, and a region *can* have it enabled at a backend level rather than just asuming it is, because unlike other things, we don't see this mirrored at a region setting and Estate setting like we usually do in the floater. (Which I think is where Beli's position is coming from)

Either way I got to go to the store, hopefully we get a response. Good luck Scylla

For petes sake Beli, so why are you against us getting clarification from LL themselves, don't be so attached to "being right" and lets just ask so we can clear this up? Surely it's better rather than "no I'm right vs no I'm right!" Ideally I hope you are right, I'll be happy if you are! So lets just get that clarified, as we've already pinged to ask and lets not get caught up in some unnessecary argument about this.

Yes, and I have rented and had region owner, which in the system is a permission level above EM, which gives access to covenant control, RAW control and what not. Your experience is not universal beli. Not every baron does it the same way.

She is actually right here, you can give Estate Manager rights to a user and have it be restricted to a single region. But this is more a name of the role than anything else. Basically no such thing as a RM exists, only EM. EM can be per region, this is an aspect of it being poorly named. Where the disageeement is happening is Beli is asuming that means that you can only apply deny_bots to regions you are an EM for, while I'm trying to say that asumes the existence of deny_bots as not just an Estate flag but *also* a region flag *that can also be toggled independently* If the bot access flag worked the same way as the others, she'd logicially correct because loads of other functions work like this, but said functions also typically have mirrored region level functions, while the bot control does not hence the point of potential issue because this may also be reflected in the existence of a controllable flag, rather than an inherited flag from estate level.

Beli, please listen. There are barons, big ones at that, who also give RO. I am speaking from personal experience. As for the other thing you are talking about, yes I know logically it would stand to reason that would be the case, but as far as we are aware, there is no deny_bots flag that exists at an individual region level, so it cant be set if it doesn't exist, even if you could for other things that exist at both levels. That's why we're asking quartz for clarfication. If I'm wrong on this that's fantastic, I'd be glad to hear that, but communications implies it might be the case, so we're asking quartz.

I think you would rightfully furious if that was the case, and I would be right there with you lmao, but not what I was talking about but I can understand how that may have came across that way if you're not familiar with this. But yes, to clarify if it helps for where I think you misunderstood that, people who purchase a region from LL, are both RO and EO of their estate and its regions, even if that is a single region and have access to deny_bots.

That doesn't actually say anything about the deny_bots flag itself. That's just the wording on how the manager role is presented. If no region level flag exists, then it's a mute point on if they can apply it to anything or not and that is what needs to be clarified, hence why I've gone and pinged quartz so we can hopefully get that cleared up. Also just to clarify, there are barons who give RO rights, not just EM rights to their renters. That is the specific thing we are talking about. I get what you're talking about, I'm saying thats just the name they give to "EMs" who sometimes are simply "RMs". That doesn't actually say anything about the flag itself. hence why we're getting clarification.

Then we need clarification on if this is a Region level function, or an Estate level function, but all the correspondance we've had from Linden Labs says it is an estate function, not region. @Quartz Mole sorry to bother you, but can we have clarification on this bit in the thread to clear this up?

WRE is one of the largest providrers of land in SL. They allow people who *logistically* rent Full regions and homestead from them, to have Region owner *permissions* in the system. They keep all their regions in a single mega-estate, despite all these regions being rented (owned permission wise) by different people. WRE is not the only baron does this and this is just an example. I personally have rented (SL permission wise owned) regions that are private islands that I have complete control over (as far as RO rights go), but do not have EO access. The lack of an Region function, means these kinds of sims, which make up ALOT of private islands (and even resident continents) in SL, are unable to apply bot restrictions even if they want to. Coffee is just getting get upset because she thinks I'm trying to muddy the water to serve my evil bot agenda or something and she wants to see bots entirely removed from SL and for some reason thinks that land barons will just ban bots entirely if this function doesn't exist rather than just leave it and tell ROs to figure it out themselves. Which means less regions would ban bots, not more, so it's a little frustrating trying to clear this up while that's all going on in the replies.

I mean when we're talking the EO level function I think it's fine. EOs should be able to quickly apply it to all of their regions, I don't see a problem there. It's just without an additional RO level function, it leaves a sizeable amount of private island owners unable to do the same. This is incorrect. An estate does not have to solely contain regions that share a border, and can contain (and does often time in the case of land barons, who a lot of people get their regions from), regions that are single private islands, or their own resident continents. These people should also be able to ban bots. It's fairly safe to asume a RO who shares several connected sims that are within an estate of a land baron, would enable this option on all their linked regions, so your concern comes across a bit disingenious and stemming from your previously mentioned hatred of bots entirely, or a good faith but misinformed assumption about region ownership that I'm trying to clear up. But coffee, this is a bit of an own goal on your part here, because *more* people would ban bots in this case, not less. So believe it or not, we're actually both aligned here, even if you may not be realising it.