What can a user do against an abusive/unfair CG?

[hinaichigo Xaris]

I don't know if this is the best place to post this, if not, sorry so much!

I have had this question for a long time and I have known people who have been in this unfair situation.

What if a user is banned from a CG (Community Gateway), by a mod for personal, racial, political, homophobic, religious, aesthetic, etc. reasons, even if the user didn't break any rules, you know, a unfair ban because he can and knows that he will not have any punishment.

Can a user do something to protect themselves?
Is there any way he can report this?
Do users have any protection or rights in these situations?

Thank you ~

Edited March 26, 2023 by hinaichigo Xaris

[ErikaKotov]

Unfortunately Linden Labs will not get involved in Resident to resident disputes. Unless they elevate it to borderline harassment then they might get involved. Linden Labs allows residence to dictate the rules of their own Sims and communities as long as they don't break the TOS.

[Ceka Cianci]

They won't get in trouble because it's private land.. Just like we can kick anyone out of our house for any reason we want, so can they from where they have authority..

If they would be able to get in trouble for kicking anyone from their place, so would any home owner for doing it also..

[Rowan Amore]

As the Community Gateway program is enabled by Linden Lab, I would think more stringent rules would apply to their moderation.   They were specifically.started.to help new residents so having to face any type of behavior such as racism, political attacks, homophobia, etc should be brought to LL's attention with an abuse report.

 

 

[hinaichigo Xaris]

Oh, maybe I should explain what the CG program is:

Quote

Introducing the new Community Gateway (CG) Program! The purpose of this program is to allow your community/group the opportunity to assist new residents in beginning their journey into Second Life, to lend a guiding hand in the creation of their new avatar personas, and assist with increasing new user retention.

Second Life give the program to some members and they must follow some Linden Labs guides, because avatars will born in their land, so their reputation is in game.

Some of these guides:

Quote

• CG Participants, their Communities, and its Leaders must maintain good disciplinary standing with Linden Lab, adhere to the Second Life Community Standards, and agree to Linden Lab’s Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.

• The region should contain a welcome area with tutorials/help content.

• As a CG member you will represent Second Life in an appropriate manner and respect other CG program members and their services as well as Linden Lab employees.

so, CG are not normal lands/groups, a CG could be the first impresion of SL for some users, so, their experience there is very important for SL.

Edited March 26, 2023 by hinaichigo Xaris

[Ceka Cianci]

1 hour ago, hinaichigo Xaris said:

Oh, maybe I should explain what the CG program is:

Second Life give the program to some members and they must follow some Linden Labs guides, because avatars will born in their land, so their reputation is in game.

Some of these guides:

so, CG are not normal lands/groups, a CG could be the first impresion of SL for some users, so, their experience there is very important for SL.

Thank you, That clears a lot up for me..

I remember going through one of those places when I made an alt, like last summer to get a feel for the new user experience.. I wasn't thrilled with how the one I went through was ran..

I'll say, they really need to monitor those places more in some way..

 

[Perrie Juran]

3 hours ago, hinaichigo Xaris said:

I don't know if this is the best place to post this, if not, sorry so much!

I have had this question for a long time and I have known people who have been in this unfair situation.

What if a user is banned from a CG (Community Gateway), by a mod for personal, racial, political, homophobic, religious, aesthetic, etc. reasons, even if the user didn't break any rules, you know, a unfair ban because he can and knows that he will not have any punishment.

Can a user do something to protect themselves?
Is there any way he can report this?
Do users have any protection or rights in these situations?

Thank you ~

Besides the Moderators and Helpers the Gateways have Managers who oversee everything. So unless it is a Manager who is doing this speak to a Manager. Then above the Manager(s) there will be the head(s) of the sponsoring group.

I do wonder about this broad brush with which you are painting the situation.

From what I know of the Gateways they are very patient with people and don't ban on the first offense or even second offense (Violations of the TOS and CS). I am not aware of any Gateways that have rules in addition to the TOS and CS.

[Perrie Juran]

3 hours ago, ErikaKotov said:

Unfortunately Linden Labs will not get involved in Resident to resident disputes. Unless they elevate it to borderline harassment then they might get involved. Linden Labs allows residence to dictate the rules of their own Sims and communities as long as they don't break the TOS.

Why is it unfortunate? Actually I think it is a good thing that they don't.

Violations of the TOS and CS should be handled but beyond that, why should they get involved. This isn't Kindergarten. Though sometimes the way people react you would think that is where they think they are. "Teacher, Tommy won't stop staring at me...." Reading some people's Profiles, that is probably what their AR's sound like.

I hope I am not sounding cynical but there is an awful lot of this.

[ErikaKotov]

53 minutes ago, Perrie Juran said:

Why is it unfortunate? Actually I think it is a good thing that they don't.

Violations of the TOS and CS should be handled but beyond that, why should they get involved. This isn't Kindergarten. Though sometimes the way people react you would think that is where they think they are. "Teacher, Tommy won't stop staring at me...." Reading some people's Profiles, that is probably what their AR's sound like.

I hope I am not sounding cynical but there is an awful lot of this.

I'll give you an example why it's unfortunate.

Unfortunately, renting a sim parcel in Second Life can be a risky endeavor due to the potential for estate companies or sim owners to suddenly disappear, leaving users vulnerable and without any means of recourse. In addition, users are subject to varying rules and interpretations from each sim owner, which can lead to disputes and one-sided judgments. While Linden Labs' hands-free approach to Second Life is understandable, it may not always be suitable for all situations. It would be nice if Linden Labs would enforce a transitional grace period from 3 to 7 days. Maybe only enforce this in major content that is seeing a significant money investment or huge install base. Of the sim or estates company to warn residents of their removal of their sims or business in Second Life. An example of this is Slink all of a sudden closing up shop and not warning people until it happened. I know it's unrealistic to give support to a product for the rest of the shelf life of that product. 

It is disheartening that users may be at the mercy of sim owners or estate companies, highlighting the need for Linden Labs to provide assistance or intervene when necessary. In cases of significant financial loss, Linden Labs could offer support and clearer guidelines for handling problematic situations, such as disputes with other users or issues with sim owners.

Respecting the autonomy of sim owners and estate companies is important, but it is equally critical to ensure that users are not left vulnerable to fraudulent activities or unforeseen events. While some may opt to pay rent in advance as a precaution, relying solely on the rules and interpretations of sim owners can prove problematic. For example, in cases where club owners take sides without considering users' perspectives, users may feel helpless. I know Linden Labs cannot have the manpower to monitored their platform 24/7. I know that would be unrealistic. Thank you for listening to my TED Talk. I apologize in advance if this is not completely on topic.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 hours ago, hinaichigo Xaris said:

Can a user do something to protect themselves?

No. Anybody with rights to do so, can ban you for any reason or no reason. It is a "resident-to-resident" dispute and LL will not get involved.

[Perrie Juran]

20 minutes ago, ErikaKotov said:

I'll give you an example why it's unfortunate.

Unfortunately, renting a sim parcel in Second Life can be a risky endeavor due to the potential for estate companies or sim owners to suddenly disappear, leaving users vulnerable and without any means of recourse. In addition, users are subject to varying rules and interpretations from each sim owner, which can lead to disputes and one-sided judgments. While Linden Labs' hands-free approach to Second Life is understandable, it may not always be suitable for all situations. It would be nice if Linden Labs would enforce a transitional grace period from 3 to 7 days. Maybe only enforce this in major content that is seeing a significant money investment or huge install base. Of the sim or estates company to warn residents of their removal of their sims or business in Second Life. An example of this is Slink all of a sudden closing up shop and not warning people until it happened. I know it's unrealistic to give support to a product for the rest of the shelf life of that product. 

It is disheartening that users may be at the mercy of sim owners or estate companies, highlighting the need for Linden Labs to provide assistance or intervene when necessary. In cases of significant financial loss, Linden Labs could offer support and clearer guidelines for handling problematic situations, such as disputes with other users or issues with sim owners.

Respecting the autonomy of sim owners and estate companies is important, but it is equally critical to ensure that users are not left vulnerable to fraudulent activities or unforeseen events. While some may opt to pay rent in advance as a precaution, relying solely on the rules and interpretations of sim owners can prove problematic. For example, in cases where club owners take sides without considering users' perspectives, users may feel helpless. I know Linden Labs cannot have the manpower to monitored their platform 24/7. I know that would be unrealistic. Thank you for listening to my TED Talk. I apologize in advance if this is not completely on topic.

Those I would consider legitimate reasons. Yes, very difficult situations.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Perrie Juran said:

Why is it unfortunate? Actually I think it is a good thing that they don't.

Violations of the TOS and CS should be handled but beyond that, why should they get involved. This isn't Kindergarten. Though sometimes the way people react you would think that is where they think they are. "Teacher, Tommy won't stop staring at me...." Reading some people's Profiles, that is probably what their AR's sound like.

I hope I am not sounding cynical but there is an awful lot of this.

i think the answer is not a more active policing by LL -- except in some circumstances (such as clear and egregious violations of the ToS and CS, as you say) -- but rather better tools that empower the consumer / renter.

Right now there is literally nothing you can do if you are ripped off by someone. Mostly, SL merchants and landlords are pretty good, I think, but there is a very clear power imbalance here.

[Alwin Alcott]

10 hours ago, hinaichigo Xaris said:

I don't know if this is the best place to post this, if not, sorry so much!

I have had this question for a long time and I have known people who have been in this unfair situation.

What if a user is banned from a CG (Community Gateway), by a mod for personal, racial, political, homophobic, religious, aesthetic, etc. reasons, even if the user didn't break any rules, you know, a unfair ban because he can and knows that he will not have any punishment.

Can a user do something to protect themselves?
Is there any way he can report this?
Do users have any protection or rights in these situations?

Thank you ~

one of the problems wtih people that think themselves that they are banned without reason, is often ( not always!) that there actually ís a reason for the ban, but comfortabely forgotten or not mentioned by the one that comes ask for action against the banning place.
I am not saying you belong to that last group of people, but the counter party doesn't come here to explain. We have only a half story to go on.
All responders should take this in mind.

[Akane Nacht]

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

banned without reason

mhm. Any time I've scratched the surface of this claim, it's been plain why the ban happened. I think the only case I've heard of that might truly be unfair is when someone is incorrectly assumed to be the alt of someone else, but even that is just tough luck.

[Ceka Cianci]

The one I went through wasn't ran very well.. I could actually take this avatar and land in the sim next to the start area ,walk across the bridge to where avatars were being born, then go through the start area myself.. Nobody ever said a word to me..

In my opinion, there has to be that wall of protection in start areas from established avatars.. I mean they get preyed upon enough already the moment they leave start areas..

The way to improve that is with a 3 strikes you're done being a start area and making that something  that can be reported.

 

[Bree Giffen]

Once again humanity fails at something so simple as to help new Second Life residents learn how to use this virtual world. Perhaps an AI powered NPC chatbot is the answer. It won't unfairly ban people. It won't have power trips. It can't feel pain. It absolutely will not stop. 

[Ceka Cianci]

12 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Once again humanity fails at something so simple as to help new Second Life residents learn how to use this virtual world. Perhaps an AI powered NPC chatbot is the answer. It won't unfairly ban people. It won't have power trips. It can't feel pain. It absolutely will not stop. 

They need one of those that are like a terminator like John Conner had when he was young.. they stay with them and protect them from who is trying to get at them  until they are standing on their own two feet well enough.. hehehe

[Perrie Juran]

5 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

Once again humanity fails at something so simple as to help new Second Life residents learn how to use this virtual world. Perhaps an AI powered NPC chatbot is the answer. It won't unfairly ban people. It won't have power trips. It can't feel pain. It absolutely will not stop. 

Where is the failure here?

You should spend a few days at a Gateway and observe what goes on.

Or even better apply to be a helper. I don't know about all of them but most have a vetting and training process for the helpers.

[Charolotte Caxton]

Please, stop talking unless you can say Linden Lab. There is no Linden Labs! Yes, it is trivial, but important. How can you discuss a platform seriously if you can't even get the name right??? (Not sure if triple question marks is ok or not).

[Luna Bliss]

15 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

16 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

banned without reason

mhm. Any time I've scratched the surface of this claim, it's been plain why the ban happened.

I was banned from a sim because one of the managers said I laughed at their pain.

[Livi Evergarden]

As a helper on three different Gateways, I can confirm. There is nothing at all you can do about it. The Gateways are approved by LL but that doesn't change the principles that goes for privately owned land. 

A gateway is like any other land available as a courtesy from the estate manager. They can decide anyone with a name starting with the letter A can't be allowed in, or that all visitors must wear a funny hat. That is the privilege of an estate manager. So bottom line: LL won't meddle because someone is banned from somewhere. Go to another Gateway if you so desire. 

[Luna Bliss]

https://gyazo.com/457669ed87c86380d309aaa687956fd6

Were you laughing at my pain?  BAN!  Grins*

[ErikaKotov]

23 minutes ago, Charolotte Caxton said:

Please, stop talking unless you can say Linden Lab. There is no Linden Labs! Yes, it is trivial, but important. How can you discuss a platform seriously if you can't even get the name right??? (Not sure if triple question marks is ok or not).

If you try to scrutinize or control the conversation too much, it may come across as a negative strategy and harm your credibility. So, it's recommended to stay focused on the main topic and avoid acting like a gatekeeper. This approach can increase your chances of convincing your opponent and reaching your desired goal. I apologize if my English is not perfect, as it is not my native language.

[Charolotte Caxton]

10 minutes ago, ErikaKotov said:

If you try to scrutinize or control the conversation too much, it may come across as a negative strategy and harm your credibility. So, it's recommended to stay focused on the main topic and avoid acting like a gatekeeper. This approach can increase your chances of convincing your opponent and reaching your desired goal. I apologize if my English is not perfect, as it is not my native language.

Thanks! I like that advice, I actually had been thinking the same.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Livi Pixelbottom said:

As a helper on three different Gateways, I can confirm. There is nothing at all you can do about it. The Gateways are approved by LL but that doesn't change the principles that goes for privately owned land. 

A gateway is like any other land available as a courtesy from the estate manager. They can decide anyone with a name starting with the letter A can't be allowed in, or that all visitors must wear a funny hat. That is the privilege of an estate manager. So bottom line: LL won't meddle because someone is banned from somewhere. Go to another Gateway if you so desire. 

As these gateways are approved by LL, they should be held to a different standard than the run of the mill private estate.  These places are a first impression some people have of SL and one would think THAT would matter to LL.