Infrastructure Investment Update: Buy/Sell Fee Change and Land Pricing Effective Mar 6, 2023 DISCUSSION

[EliseAnne85]

7 hours ago, Mari Moonbeam said:

The estimated time to fill is very inaccurate, I've had it saying 2-3 days for weeks at a time. At just 1 or 2 Linden over base market. Another reason I went to PPlus  to get hassle free money .

I've only used 10-minute fills as I don't buy large quantities of lindens and those fill fine.  I've mostly made lindens in SL from things I make, except for this war time.  I got 254 lindens to the dollar filled in 10 mins last night.  When I put in the 258 just to see how it might go at under 5000 lindens, it jumped me to saying estimated fill time - 5 days.  One can always try, doesn't mean one will get.  

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[elleevelyn]

14 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I could see that for people in countries where it is difficult or costly to get credit cards to put on file or there isn't PayPal (Russia), this would make sense. Otherwise it doesn't.

this makes a lot of sense to me.  As you say it works for SL creatives from countries where there are obstacles to obtaining access to USD. Global South countries for instance also. So I think people in this circumstance will be happy with this Linden move

this said though the affected people will still have the difficulty of obtaining USD for the Premium Plus payment, mitigated I suppose by paying premium annually (once a year rather than monthly)

[EliseAnne85]

6 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

may i ask you to try your theory for a week and come back if it's working?
 

I never said it was a theory, plus my previous posts I explained I make money in SL selling items so I don't buy large quantities of lindens.

Anyhoo....

I just put in for 20000 lindens and it's a ten minute fill and there is a savings.  My posts were a FYI type general post, YMMV.  But, the below, which I just put in, shows a savings.  One poster was quibbling over five dollars so I showed how to save.  

This is right now.  All my limit buys that say 10-minute fills have always filled.  

 

[Ana Yates]

40 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Let's say I want to pay for my grandfathered homestead, which costs US $95. I can go inworld to a kiosk and pay $27,225 to cover that bill of US $95.

But if I go to the LindEx, even cashing out instantly at the poor rate of 246 - which is usually the case nowadays - even after the fee I yield US $105.15. That's a difference of US $10.15!

After paying the US $95 that way on the web and not inworld, I could then use that greater amount for the cashout towards more tier or the cost of the premium account -- again, I'd have $10.15 left over!

Therefore it makes absolutely no sense. The Lindens write that the reason for this option is that people will have a stable bill they can plan for, regardless of Linden fluctuation.

But it's a controlled currency exchange and the Linden doesn't fluctuate that much (although it has steadily declined in value, which is deliberate on the part of LL, since they control it).

It's not going to $10 in difference so it makes no sense. Of course you should cash out, even with the greater fee now, and pay your tier that way and have real money left over, instead of going inworld and using your hard-earned Linden dollars at that rate in the kiosk.

Even allowing for the cost of purchasing Linden dollars (if you got purchased Lindens, which are more expensive than earned Lindens), it makes no sense -- and the whole point is that this is an option is for those earning Linden dollars to pay tier.

I could see that for people in countries where it is difficult or costly to get credit cards to put on file or there isn't PayPal (Russia), this would make sense. Otherwise it doesn't.

The great thing about this for people trying to cover tier with in world earnings is that they do not have to account for that money in the real world. It saves a lot of headache if you run something for fun and don't want to have to cover taxes, registering as self employed, showing that you earned the money but spent it directly on tier with none to little profit. 

It's made me consider a full sim for a project now. I already pay taxes on my SL income but I'd rather not add to the hassle by withdrawing lindens to pay for a sim that's just for fun, but having to account for it in my tax returns. 

[Adam Spark]

On 3/6/2023 at 6:05 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

Iono .. "cheap land" does not a virtual world make. See Opensim. I can't afford $209 a month on a region here any more than I could afford $229, but I can tell you want I wont be doing .. buying and burning L$ and friends have stated the same .. 

I've already seen income in SL drop to the point I don't bother cashing out anymore.

The reason other grids struggle, in my opinion, has more to do with what is essentially a virtual world monopoly here in SL. Its really hard to get someone interested in a grid in its infancy (when OS and other grids were/are new), when there is already a grid with nearly 50K people populating it at peak times, 20 years of history, events every hour, shops on every corner, and the common misconception that joining another grid means "starting over" (I've been on both at once at various points). I've talked about other grids with so many people only to get responses like "I've spent so much here I don't want to start over" and "But there is nothing to do and no people over there". Its really difficult, I think, to compare features and price points on grids that are so lopsided in population. It makes it hard to try a grid out when it takes hours or days to find an unempty sim and you rarely if ever see more than a dozen events a week. Many people are interested in the price points, but not interested in leaving for ghost towns. Plus most, if not all viewers are based on the SL code. So SL is very ingrained in the virtual world system as a whole, which makes it very easy for folks to flock to and stick with SL. Cheap land does create interest. A lack of an audience/consumer base loses it faster than the grids can improve on it.

[Theresa Tennyson]

Personally, I'd be more inclined to listen to the Communards on the barricades in this thread if I didn't know that most of them said exactly the same thing the last time fees were increased and they're still here. 

I'm especially dubious about those who keep saying, "Linden Lab, you are a terribell, terribell company - moomph!" and then eagerly pay the Lab over forty real US dollars for a meaningless "last name" when offered the chance.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Personally, I'd be more inclined to listen to the Communards on the barricades in this thread if I didn't know that most of them said exactly the same thing the last time fees were increased and they're still here.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

========================

From Monty Python and the Holy Grail:

[Scene: The troupe comes across a group of peasants, scooping up mud (?) from one pile into another.]

"Which one is the King?"

"The one not covered in [poop]."

..

..

[End of scene: One of the King's men beats a peasant for being rude]

"Help! I'm being oppressed!"

========================

Sound familiar?

We are all "the peasants", philosophizing while we shift our [mud] piles back and forth.

Meanwhile, when [LL] does not act as we desire, then "obviously" we are being oppressed!

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Meanwhile, when [LL] does not act as we desire, then "obviously" we are being oppressed!

I'm not sure that anyone here is suggesting that they've been "oppressed." This isn't really a "social justice" moment (which is why I find Theresa's comment about "Communards" a bit silly) -- although it can certainly be argued that the focus upon raising fees is going to disproportionately impact upon those who live on a fixed income or who are just not particularly well off, and who have a diminishing pool of money for entertainment. It's also, of course, hitting small creators more than it's going to impact on the larger ones.

But really this is mostly about whether this is a viable profit model for LL. Every person who posts here noting that they are no longer going to be able to afford this or that, is pointing, on a micro scale, to the overall impact that this is going to have on SL's economy. That's worth noting.

[Theresa Tennyson]

16 hours ago, TofuMusubi said:

The more I think about these changes, the angrier I get. These new policies are like the GOP's tax breaks for the rich (landowners) and then spreading the debt burden among the poor (average user using Lindex). Second Life is looking very, very unattractive right now.

The "poor" (realistically, "middle class") users probably don't bother buying mass amounts of Lindens at once on the Lindex - I'd say they buy ad-hoc amounts through the viewer that aren't much over the amount that would hit the current minimum fee. The same amount would hit the same fee now. People who'd be "hurt" are basically the bourgeoisie.

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

But really this is mostly about whether this is a viable profit model for LL. Every person who posts here noting that they are no longer going to be able to afford this or that, is pointing, on a micro scale, to the overall impact that this is going to have on SL's economy. That's worth noting.

It's also worth noting if they've said the same thing in the past and haven't actually done so.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

16 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

You think that's bad .. wait till you find out about people who impulse buy on the marketplace and don't have any L$ on their account at all.

You can just pay with a credit card.

 

16 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..is the normal option I thought..

Yeah, sure it is, I mean who doesn't enjoy paying $10 for a mp cart that normally costs $5 worth of L$ if you pay with L$ like a normal SecondLifer instead of a clueless positivity-fan who constantly reveals that they know NOTHING of any value about the platform.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The "poor" (realistically, "middle class") users probably don't bother buying mass amounts of Lindens at once on the Lindex - I'd say they buy ad-hoc amounts through the viewer that aren't much over the amount that would hit the current minimum fee. The same amount would hit the same fee now. People who'd be "hurt" are basically the bourgeoisie.

Exactly! And some of "us" ad-hoc purchase users, never would have noticed the fees creeping up (until now of course)!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

10 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

It's also worth noting if they've said the same thing in the past and haven't actually done so.

Do you want them to? Do their comments only have validity if they flounce away?

What exactly is your point, Theresa? That those who don't leave "as promised" clearly have nothing to add to the conversation because . . . they're still here?

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Do you want them to? Do their comments only have validity if they flounce away?

What exactly is your point, Theresa? That those who don't leave "as promised" clearly have nothing to add to the conversation because . . . they're still here?

Waaalllll, I wouldn't say "nothing"..........

But certainly less than face value.

[Love Zhaoying]

26 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

(which is why I find Theresa's comment about "Communards" a bit silly)

On the surface, it appears an attempt to derail - either consciously or unconsciously - as some just can't help it.

On topic: No matter WHO you are, these changes affect you in SOME way!

- Unless you never ever ever buy L$

- Unless you also do not own a Private Region

- etc.

Caveats-R-Us!

[Sid Nagy]

My 2 cents:

- Price increases are inevitable in the current RL world situation. Prices go up everywhere. So at this point it isn't surprising at all that LL has to rise some of their prices. No profit, no Linden Lab, no SL. No fun for most, but it is that simple.

- LL made too much announcements and changes in one post IMHO. And announcements with a lot ifs and buts and elses on top of that. Therefor confusing.  If they had only announced the increase in fees first because of the RL economic situation, most people would have understood and agreed.
Than they could have announced their 20th anniversary gift a few weeks later and so on.

LL's best part never has been people management or crowd control.
But as so often the storm will be over in a few days, everybody has their 2 cents in, and life even the second one will continue.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Sid Nagy
Improvements of the text. I blame my English again.

[Istelathis]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

although it can certainly be argued that the focus upon raising fees is going to disproportionately impact upon those who live on a fixed income or who are just not particularly well off, and who have a diminishing pool of money for entertainment.

It really isn't though, not for me at any rate.  I mean, I used to do survey's online to earn linden, I would fish, play lindo to supplement it, and on the rare occasion actually purchase it, typically at $10 USD at a time.  I still at times do, with the exception of doing online surveys, that is just sheer torture no one should have to go through 😋

I think this impacts people who purchase what I would consider large amounts of linden, and have a larger entertainment budget.  It can be said that they will likely be the ones adjusting their spending habits in SL.

A lot of people are struggling now because of inflation, their entertainment budgets are being reduced, and SL will more than likely feel that as a result but are not responsible for it, they are likewise going to have to shift their own finances to compensate for it.  This is going to impact the people who spend more money in SL.

[EliseAnne85]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Do you want them to? Do their comments only have validity if they flounce away?

What exactly is your point, Theresa? That those who don't leave "as promised" clearly have nothing to add to the conversation because . . . they're still here?

I gotta say I agree generally with Theresa's last post.  Things go up, we complain or we eventually adjust.  The same people that complained the last time adjusted somehow just like many of us did during The Great Recession.  

My only grief to higher fees now is that everyone is raising prices on us all at once and on some things by a lot due to runaway inflation.  It's time for me to conserve cash since I made a horrific total of 149 lindens on sales in two weeks.

As far as you, Syclla, saying in another thread this will hit small sellers worse then the big sellers.  Maybe/maybe not because my rent is 800 linden a month for a store that's more like a skybox.  One does not need to have a big store in SL, that is a luxury but not a necessity in order to make good sales. 

However, I'm sure LL needs to keep their people with full regions happy and paying that over $200 dollar a month price so SL can stay afloat and those are the people they did not want to offend and I don't think it's just because they are "rich", I think it's because they had to or die.  Those of us who do get perhaps 3500 lindens here and there or a month are not going to be affected at all.  It's the impulse buyers of lindens who may decide to skip a few impulse buys on lindens but if they find things on sale, the extra fee doesn't matter that much.  That's where the adjustment comes in.  But, with this inflation, this has been one ginormous financial juggle for me, personally.  It's a constant flow of things going up.  I won't be raising any of my prices, however, and may lower some older items to 1 linden each since someone may like it even though it's older.

Edited March 8, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Ceka Cianci]

3 hours ago, Ana Yates said:

The great thing about this for people trying to cover tier with in world earnings is that they do not have to account for that money in the real world. It saves a lot of headache if you run something for fun and don't want to have to cover taxes, registering as self employed, showing that you earned the money but spent it directly on tier with none to little profit. 

It's made me consider a full sim for a project now. I already pay taxes on my SL income but I'd rather not add to the hassle by withdrawing lindens to pay for a sim that's just for fun, but having to account for it in my tax returns. 

You should be able to do this the whole time from my understanding without even being Premium Plus..

If your credits from selling lindens don't get withdrawn from your usd wallet, I believe you shouldn't be generating any taxes..

From my understanding you can pay tier with credits in your wallet.. The only real reason to become premium plus for the perk would be to avoid the lindex all together and just pay with lindens in world..That and if you wanted a homestead sim..

Edited March 8, 2023 by Ceka Cianci

[Love Zhaoying]

Lower cost Private Regions:

Higher Fees:

Edited March 8, 2023 by Love Zhaoying
I am actually proud of this post. #FightMe!

[Theresa Tennyson]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

What exactly is your point, Theresa? That those who don't leave "as promised" clearly have nothing to add to the conversation because . . . they're still here?

Some time ago I bought a book about a certain ship accident that I was interested in. After a while it became pretty clear that the author's main purpose was expressing his disdain for a certain shipping regulation and blaming the accident on it - whether the evidence supported that conclusion or not. One of the things he mentioned was that the head of a major shipping firm said that the regulation would drive his company out of business.

Interestingly enough, some time later I discovered something interesting - that company didn't go out of business, was still in operation decades later and was eventually bought out by another company. For some reason the author didn't seem that this was worth mentioning (the book was written close to the present day and the author should easily have been able to find that out.)

If you're trying to set policy, it's safer to do it by what people do than by what they say.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

You should be able to do this the whole time from my understanding without even being Premium Plus..

If your credits from selling lindens don't get withdrawn from your usd wallet, you shouldn't be generating any taxes..

From my understanding you can pay tier with credits in your wallet.. The only real reason to become premium plus for the perk would be to avoid the lindex all together and just pay with lindens in world..That and if you wanted a homestead sim..

Maybe it never applied to Private Regions, because technically they are not "Tier"?

[Kristin Linden]

Hey folks!

It seems there have been quite a few off-topic discussions going on in here, and we've gone in and cleaned things up a bit. Please remember to remain on topic, as side discussions/chatter can make things hard to follow for those trying to engage with this thread.

Thank you all for sharing your feedback and thoughts so far!

 

[Ceka Cianci]

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Maybe it never applied to Private Regions, because technically they are not "Tier"?

I just looked it up to keep my sanity. hehehehe

It's from two different sections.. Unless they are wording something funny it sounds like you can.

Billing for land holdings

Private Regions

As with all US$ transactions, Private Region (island) setup fees first bill against any US$ credit in your account and then against the payment method you have associated with buying land.

If you are using PayPal, you may need to adjust your monthly billing allowance. See the next section for instructions.

If you use a credit card, you may need to notify your credit card provider of the upcoming purchase.  See Account balance for details.

 

Using your US dollar balance

You can put your US dollar balance to work in several ways, explained below.

Pay for Second Life expenses

When you pay your premium membership fee, land use fees, private estate fees, buy Linden dollars or buy a Private Region, Linden Lab charges your US dollar balance. If your US dollar balance does not cover your expenses, all available US$ credit is applied to the fee. Then we charge the remainder via your preferred payment method. If you make enough Linden dollars, you can sell them on the LindeX to increase your US dollar balance. Some Residents' premium accounts pay for themselves!

If you'd prefer to use a method of payment like a credit card or PayPal to pay for certain one-time purchases, you can click the DON'T USE option next to your USD Balance. This will charge the full amount of your purchase to your selected payment method. Your USD Tilia account balance will remain on your account for future use.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I just looked it up to keep my sanity. hehehehe

It's from two different sections.. Unless they are wording something funny it sounds like you can.

Billing for land holdings

Private Regions

As with all US$ transactions, Private Region (island) setup fees first bill against any US$ credit in your account and then against the payment method you have associated with buying land.

If you are using PayPal, you may need to adjust your monthly billing allowance. See the next section for instructions.

If you use a credit card, you may need to notify your credit card provider of the upcoming purchase.  See Account balance for details.

 

Using your US dollar balance

You can put your US dollar balance to work in several ways, explained below.

Pay for Second Life expenses

When you pay your premium membership fee, land use fees, private estate fees, buy Linden dollars or buy a Private Region, Linden Lab charges your US dollar balance. If your US dollar balance does not cover your expenses, all available US$ credit is applied to the fee. Then we charge the remainder via your preferred payment method. If you make enough Linden dollars, you can sell them on the LindeX to increase your US dollar balance. Some Residents' premium accounts pay for themselves!

If you'd prefer to use a method of payment like a credit card or PayPal to pay for certain one-time purchases, you can click the DON'T USE option next to your USD Balance. This will charge the full amount of your purchase to your selected payment method. Your USD Tilia account balance will remain on your account for future use.

That does NOT say you can use a L$ balance for land.  Just your USD balance - then "preferred payment method" (credit card, etc.).