Difficullt start for new participants?

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

Doesn't CTS require an RLV viewer to use?  I'd imagine if LL had wanted their viewer to be RLV ready, they would have done so already yet they haven't.  

We have offered to submit a subset of the RLVa code base to allow a set of commands with a utility or vanilla focus .... 

[Christina Halpin]

On 1/15/2023 at 4:45 PM, AmeliaJ08 said:

I just remembered that basic stuff like WASD are not enabled by default...

....

 

 

It is the default on my SL viewer. But how important is it? Why is it first in the guidebook for new users?

WASD is not the default in Firestorm. So the first thing in the guidebook, which they also give out, is something that won't work for beginners.

Page 3 has that left-clicking on the ground causes movement to that location, which is not the default for the SL viewer or Firestorm.

[Christina Halpin]

On 1/7/2023 at 11:32 AM, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

I seem to remember the Lab making an easy, simplified  viewer years ago.  Am I remembering that wrong?  

I don't know why that viewer didn't make it.  Maybe it didn't have enough options and very few new accounts used it, but it would be nice to have an simplified option for the first few weeks for new accounts.  

I was just told that the simplified viewer used ASDW for movement. Not arrows.

That is not my idea of simple, or easy.

[Theresa Tennyson]

38 minutes ago, Christina Halpin said:

It is the default on my SL viewer. But how important is it? Why is it first in the guidebook for new users?

WASD is not the default in Firestorm. So the first thing in the guidebook, which they also give out, is something that won't work for beginners.

 

Why would a "beginner" be using Firestorm?

[Theresa Tennyson]

4 minutes ago, Christina Halpin said:

I was just told that the simplified viewer used ASDW for movement. Not arrows.

That is not my idea of simple, or easy.

And yet, people here are screaming that WASD should be the default because it's what all good citizens are used to.

Who's right?

Nobody?

Edited January 26, 2023 by Theresa Tennyson

[Christina Halpin]

7 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And yet, people here are screaming that WASD should be the default because it's what all good citizens are used to.

Who's right?

Nobody?

Okay. You are saying that someone uses WASD? I am agog. What percentage of people here would you say use WASD?

It is easier to remember 'right arrow means right" than "D means right". 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Christina Halpin

[Theresa Tennyson]

4 minutes ago, Christina Halpin said:

Okay. You are saying that someone uses WASD? I am agog. What percentage of people here would you say use WASD?

It is easier to remember 'right arrow means right" than "D means right". 

 

On 1/2/2023 at 11:20 AM, JetReigns said:

No offense, but... what are you talking about? WASD is functionally the same as using arrow keys, it's just in a different area of the keyboard.

Anyway, WASD is the industry standard for 3D over-the-shoulder games (whether you consider SL a game or not is irrelevant), so I really doubt it would put off anyone. I'm not suggesting that the option to use arrow keys be taken away or that everyone should be switched over. By "set to default" I simply mean that brand new users on brand new accounts can walk around with WASD without having to change their preferences first.

 

[Christina Halpin]

6 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

 

 

thanks. I get it now -- the use of WASD is apparently faster, people do know it, and they might want to use it.

But someone who knows how to use WASD doesn't need instruction, right? As soon as they find out the arrows work they will try WASD.

The SL Viewer has this as a default. That seems fine to me. I disagree with teaching this first. (To be less dramatic, the first thing taught is the use of arrows or WASD.)

It was needed when some computers did not have arrows, but I am guessing they all do. Do some smart phones lack arrows? I am guessing no one starts SL on their phone.

[animats]

Firestorm hotkey list. Default, except that I turned off "Toggle Voice".

WASD is available.

 

[cunomar]

You're all planning day trips to be taken on a foreign holiday , while the newbie has no idea which country nor how to get there .

Options are fine , add another 1000 that i won't care about and will never use .

Ask yourself this - why are new players often easily recognized because they are running everywhere and can't find the walk button ?

I use Firestorm because i was told by all and sundry right from the beginning that is the best viewer . But today i'm wondering why as standard i have about 16 tabs at the top of my viewer all of which should be under a single tab labelled settings . This would make room for a teleport history tab .

Lost nothing , just cleared the clutter thus offering the new player simple basic function from which to evolve .

30 years of VHS , billions sold and earned , yet it will always be generally accepted that nobody ever learned to program the things because basic function was good enough .

 

[Katherine Heartsong]

90The issues with arrow keys instead of WASD also comes into play if you look at a typical (Western) keyboard layout and also assume that 85–90% plus of users are going to be right handed. They have the mouse in their right hand, and have to awkwardly cross their left hand over/near/close to that right hand to use their left hand on the arrows keys.

WASD and mouse are a demonstrably more user-friendly combo from a physio and mechanical point of view, hence it being the norm in most online games.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Katherine Heartsong

[animats]

6 hours ago, cunomar said:

You're all planning day trips to be taken on a foreign holiday , while the newbie has no idea which country nor how to get there .

Good point. Go try De*****nd as a guest. It's a crappy virtual world, but onboarding takes three clicks and you'll have the user interface figured out in two minutes.

[Love Zhaoying]

6 hours ago, cunomar said:

30 years of VHS , billions sold and earned , yet it will always be generally accepted that nobody ever learned to program the things because basic function was good enough .

Did you miss out on the at least 10-12 years where they basically programmed themselves, using a remote?

- Set time automatically from TV signals using remote and on-screen displays

- Scanned for and added all channels automatically using remote to start the process and on-screen displays

- Allowed you to setup recording for channel via on-screen display prompts using remote and on-screen displays

 

[Christina Halpin]

11 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

 

WASD and mouse are a demonstrably more user-friendly combo from a physio and mechanical point of view, hence it being the norm in most online games.

I am thinking that DXCV would be more user-friendly . .  from the physio and mechanical point of view. or would you consider having to learn a new system user-unfriendly? And to call it WASD implies they are not using the Dvorak keyboard, which would be much more user friendly (from a physio and mechanical point of view).

The idea is that a beginner might be drowning in confusion, not worried about minor physiological issue. The guidebook should attempt to describe the fundamentally important things as quickly and simply as possible. So we should not prioritize teaching them how to fly or shout. They need to learn to walk, chat, IM, teleport, sit, and use inventory. that's a lot, and I am probably missing some

[Coffee Pancake]

17 minutes ago, Christina Halpin said:

I am thinking that DXCV would be more user-friendly . . 

There is an unspoken language that all software shares, buttons that always do the same things so the user doesn't need to relearn everything from scratch.

Once upon a time, we didn't have this shared language for interacting with characters on a screen and key mappings were gibberish by todays standards. Cursor keys was a bold yet imperfect step away from QAOP or ZXO or frikin numbers or worse.

WASD, or whatever is in those key positions is the global hard won standard for character movement. We spend 20 years fighting over this starting in the 80s, lets not do it again.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Coffee Pancake

[Christina Halpin]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

There is a shared unspoken language that all software shares, buttons that always do the same things so the user doesn't need to relearn everything from scratch.

Once upon a time, we didn't have this shared language for interacting with characters on a screen and key mappings were gibberish by todays standards. Cursor keys was a bold yet imperfect step away from QAOP or ZXO or frikin numbers or worse.

WASD, or whatever is in those key positions is the global hard won standard for character movement. We spend 20 years fighting over this starting in the 80s, lets not do it again.

Yes! You get it! There is more to being user-friendly than just "a physio and mechanical point of view".

Trying to teach beginners the WASD system isn't friendly, unless they already know it. And the people who know it don't need to be taught either.

And there seems to be a hidden issue of whether SL should try to market to experienced gamers or people who aren't gamers. SL is such a fantastic experience, I want it to be for everyone. I actually get annoyed when SL  is called a game.

[Coffee Pancake]

4 minutes ago, Christina Halpin said:

Yes! You get it! There is more to being user-friendly than just "a physio and mechanical point of view".

Trying to teach beginners the WASD system isn't friendly, unless they already know it. And the people who know it don't need to be taught either.

And there seems to be a hidden issue of whether SL should try to market to experienced gamers or people who aren't gamers. SL is such a fantastic experience, I want it to be for everyone. I actually get annoyed when SL  is called a game.

SL shares a lot of the language of gaming, it should pilot like a game. That serves people coming from games or people going to games from here. It does not make this a game to lean on decades of gaming heritage.

[Eva Nova]

I remember my first avatar in SL was in January 2008. I had no idea what I was doing. I found myself in a cafe at an infohub and sat down. My avi went into 'away' mode and then logged me out. I didn't log in again for two months lol. I'm glad I did though.

[Istelathis]

4 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

SL shares a lot of the language of gaming, it should pilot like a game. That serves people coming from games or people going to games from here. It does not make this a game to lean on decades of gaming heritage.

Pretty much this, people coming in from the gaming environment are going to be more familiar with WASD.  Considering this is a PC only virtual environment, it is going to cater mostly to people looking for a PC virtual environment - which will likely be an audience that has had previous experience with PC gaming and the de facto standard for nearly the past thirty years has been WASD.

In addition to this, I can't stress this enough, the viewer is such a tiny download there really is not going to be much holding people to stick around for long.  It is not as though they have spent the past hour downloading SL, not even likely to be ten minutes, there is no real time investment in downloading SL.  Creating an account is relatively quick as well (which is a good thing).  People are going to log in, after probably a two minute download, and not likely to feel compelled to stick around.  Something as simple as WASD being default, is more important than people may realize - as foolish as that sounds.  Same with basic camera controls, you want them to be come into an environment they are familiar with because they are not as likely to spend very much time here if they haven't a reason to.  

I imagine the typical experience for a new user is something like this.

1. They log in.

2. Their chatbox is flooded with "wwwwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssddddwwwwwww"

3. They figure out they have to use their arrow keys.

4. They try to move their mouse to look around them, right clicking pops open a menu, left clicking doesn't do anything.

5. They look around, confined by using the arrow keys, and the lousy default camera angle, and wonder if it is even worth their time.

Likely the only thing they even know about SL, is they heard some vague reference to it and were curious what it was all about, they did not spend the past several hours researching it, they decided to just give it a quick try to see what the grand daddy of all of these new metaverses are all about.  They have more options available to them (than a lot of long term people here did), and decide their time may be better invested elsewhere.  

Edited January 28, 2023 by Istelathis

[Theresa Tennyson]

Okay, maybe I'm not too bright but... am I reading an argument between people who say that WASD should be the default but it isn't and some who says that WASD is the default and shouldn't be?

 

[Aethelwine]

I downloaded Skyrim over Xmas on a sale, I played around with it a bit, but it is much more complicated for a new user than SecondLife is. I remember struggling with the controls to move around. To customise your avatar you need a mod manager, you need to worry about dependencies, need to know what version of the game you have, for a lot of modifications you need to go through install instructions involving copying files across in to directories. I seem to need to run every modded bit of clothing through an external programme to get it to fit one of the bodies you can get (I still haven't worked that out yet). I haven't fully given up on it, I kind of like a challenge, but it seems far less user friendly than Secondlife. What's more to even just go fishing I end up with dogs attacking me. A month messing around with it and I still haven't successfully managed to work out getting dressed in clothes I want. If that is what MMOs are like then SL is easy peasy.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Aethelwine

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

5 hours ago, Istelathis said:

Pretty much this, people coming in from the gaming environment are going to be more familiar with WASD.  Considering this is a PC only virtual environment, it is going to cater mostly to people looking for a PC virtual environment - which will likely be an audience that has had previous experience with PC gaming and the de facto standard for nearly the past thirty years has been WASD.

I don't particularly care how people choose to move around inworld.  We have options, but why do some people think SL is completely peopled with gamers and that everything should be catered to them?  It's not.  Maybe you only hang out with gamers, so you think that is the majority?  Or is it that gamers can't learn new things, so SL should look like and work like what they've always seen and done?

Simplifying the new user experience should not only consider how people move around.  That is peanuts compared the learning curve as a whole.

I think most people today know to look for a "settings" tab (or in SL's case, "preferences") to customize how their experience works.  A quick peek in the "move and view" section to make a choice on how you want to move should be enough for an experienced gamer or anyone.

 

[Christina Halpin]

5 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Okay, maybe I'm not too bright but... am I reading an argument between people who say that WASD should be the default but it isn't and some who says that WASD is the default and shouldn't be?

 

I was reading the beginning guide and complaining about them being told, first thing, four different ways to move. To start, they only need one.

I am guessing the beginning instructions could be:

There are different ways to move, but the simplest is with your arrows. Pressing the ALT will cause the arrows to move your view. When they aren't working, click on your avatar. Teleporting is just clicking, though first you have to find a someplace to teleport to. Try Search. Sitting on something can be a lot more interesting than you think. Try right clicking and selecting sit.

And then you explain how to talk to people, and then how to buy a *****.

And, reality check, the only way to write good instructions is to test them on your target audience while you silently watch. So I am guessing. Have them start in a place with interesting pose balls and only a few other people.

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Christina Halpin

[Arielle Popstar]

On 1/26/2023 at 12:18 PM, Theresa Tennyson said:

Why would a "beginner" be using Firestorm?

Because hopefully they have run into somebody who has highly recommended dumping the S/L viewer and pointed them to a well supported viewer like FS. If the Linden viewer had a group support structure like Firestorm does, it would likely increase new user retention just on that fact alone. No sense having advisors if they aren't available to advise right? When a new person runs into trouble they need help then, not after the Lab gets back to the office after the weekend and is available to help.

12 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

SL shares a lot of the language of gaming, it should pilot like a game. That serves people coming from games or people going to games from here. It does not make this a game to lean on decades of gaming heritage.

Easiest solution is to have viewers make the Move Controls visible by default and then afterwards the new person can sort out which keyboard setup they want to use if needed. I am an ex gamer and I still predominantly use the move control regardless of my familiarity with WASD or the Arrow keys. The problem with the Keyboard is that it is easy to get messed up when the focus is not inworld but rather chat boxes. The Move Control UI overcomes that issue.

[Theresa Tennyson]

17 minutes ago, Christina Halpin said:

I was reading the beginning guide and complaining about them being told, first thing, four different ways to move. To start, they only need one.

 

Indeed, yes they do. But why should you be the one who gets to choose which one instead of them?

("Poseballs?" Okay, Grandma...)

People get all up in arms when people say that Second Life is a "game" - they insist it's a "Virtual World." But what would a Virtual World be? Simplest way to describe it would be a "populated virtual space." The world, like the real world, is full of individuals who have different goals and needs. As one "resident" in this virtual world, I don't care - and shouldn't care - if my neighbor is moving by using the arrow keys, WASD, a mouse, or by taping ping-pong balls to their cat and following it with a mocap scanner.

And let's be honest - this whole "making things easy for newbies" is basically saying, "making things easy for newbies who have the same experience set as I do." I came to Second Life from The Sims games, which uses yet another completely different control scheme from the "standard."