New Membership plans

[Aria Aurelia]

On 11/18/2022 at 4:42 PM, Reed Linden said:

In order:

We have only changed the VAT policy for membership levels (Plus, Premium, Premium Plus).

We can reconsider it in the future! But we have no plans to do so at this time. We're moving into a direction where the various membership types are differentiated not just by price, but by function. Plus is intended primarily to democratize mainland ownership (and was released intentionally with a tier maintenance reduction). Premium, while currently being the 'jack-of-all-trades' subscription level as a result of it being the ONLY subscription level until very recently, remains the membership type for Linden Homes. My intent at the moment, is to move further toward enhancing those differentiators in the future.

No. Same basic answer as above.

@Reed Linden best thing you've done in the last decade is make homestead ownership avaliable with premium plus.  I don't need a 2048 house as long as that is a perk.  I just bought one directly from you and so have a couple other friends.  You will sell way more homesteads at this point to people with premium plus.  I've found the people who recently bought homesteads because of this change have now come back to secondlife on a regular basis versus visiting on the occasion.  This also gave me the option to still maintain a region while not playing secondlife as much. I don't mind spending 109 dollars a month if I'm only using the region 2 to 3 days a week.  Made much more sense.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Aria Aurelia

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Candide LeMay said:

I've just tested this with a basic alt. Sent 30 offline IMs to it (with pauses between them). The alt received 30 emails, one for each IM. After I've logged in with the alt I saw the first 25 IMs inworld. So it seems the limits are for whatever LL stores for your inworld viewing, not the number of emails they send (and why would they limit this? sending emails is cheap/free).

I thought that was the case.  That is why some people get upset at store owners that say "send a notecard, my IMs get capped".  I was always under the impression that the stuff sent to email was not subjected to the 'stored' limit.

[BJoyful]

Will Plus members have access to Premium Sandboxes?

[Ceka Cianci]

2 hours ago, BJoyful said:

Will Plus members have access to Premium Sandboxes?

From what it say's when you go to the page to change your membership. It looks like it is only a perk for Premium memberships. The Plus membership I believe is a Basic Plus membership.

All Premium members also enjoy

---

• A free Linden Home of your choice
• Exclusive Premium gifts
• Exclusive access to Premium areas, sandboxes, experiences
• Priority entry when regions are full
• Voice morphing
• Animesh attachments for your avatar
• Live chat support exclusive to Premium and Premium Plus members

Edited November 20, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Love Zhaoying]

I think, it is easy for anyone without sufficient information to confuse "Plus" with "Premium Plus" if the terms come up without needed context.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think, it is easy for anyone without sufficient information to confuse "Plus" with "Premium Plus" if the terms come up without needed context.

Yeah, I think LL should have chosen a different name.  At the very least the new one should have called Basic Plus.

[Jaylinbridges]

2 hours ago, BJoyful said:

Will Plus members have access to Premium Sandboxes?

This is ALL you get for your $5.99 USD/mo, or $65.99 USD/yr:

What benefits are included with a Plus membership?

Plus membership includes:

• The ability to own mainland, with 512m of land allowance included with the membership
• A weekly L$ stipend of L$150
• An increased number of groups (50, instead of 42 for Basic members)
• A wider selection of technical ticket types available through Customer Support for non-account and Billing issues
• Nothing Else!

[Love Zhaoying]

9 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Yeah, I think LL should have chosen a different name.  At the very least the new one should have called Basic Plus.

Presenting the information differently would have been helpful, too:

-Basic ("Free")

-Plus

-Premium

-Premium Plus

Once the A la carte system is defined, a "grid" of options will become even more important..

[Nick0678]

Did they name this on purpose to remind us the gas price is high?

[Qie Niangao]

Back to indulging my spreadsheet habit:

This assumes L$250/US$ exchange rate, and completely ignores any currency conversion fees. Also, it ignores the value of all other benefits except stipend and bonus tier. Basically, it's calculating that last column as a "rental replacement" cost: if one's sole reason to join a subscription plan is to own Mainland rather than pay rent, how much weekly rent per 512m² would be the break-even point?

Somebody should check my calculations, but if this is correct, Plus is simply priced too high. Unless a subscriber really has no use for more that 512m², the Premium plan is a much better deal. Net of stipend, Premium only costs US$1.80 more per year in exchange for twice as much bonus tier (not to mention other benefits).

Am I missing something?

[Andred Darwin]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Back to indulging my spreadsheet habit:

This assumes L$250/US$ exchange rate, and completely ignores any currency conversion fees. Also, it ignores the value of all other benefits except stipend and bonus tier. Basically, it's calculating that last column as a "rental replacement" cost: if one's sole reason to join a subscription plan is to own Mainland rather than pay rent, how much weekly rent per 512m² would be the break-even point?

Somebody should check my calculations, but if this is correct, Plus is simply priced too high. Unless a subscriber really has no use for more that 512m², the Premium plan is a much better deal. Net of stipend, Premium only costs US$1.80 more per year in exchange for twice as much bonus tier (not to mention other benefits).

Am I missing something?

I think it makes a lot sense, but going a bit out of your main point... what one would probably consider is the relation between the amount of real dollars they are paying for the membership (or not) along with how much more they already spend buying lindens in a period for general purchases, rentals, etc... (specially if they don't have a source of linden dollars in game like a business, etc...), the premium membership gets you double the amount of linden dollars for an extra $33 real dollars .... ( but maybe that $33 would cost less than you would spend in real dollars to buy the same amount of lindens for purchases, etc... ). I think the new Plus is great as an option, and somewhat a smart move by LL... (specially for someone looking to start in SL or in some cases downgrade instead of leaving... ), Premium Plus, I'm not sure, maybe only if you really need or like the extras a lot (groups, hold double experience keys, etc... ), having  two Premium accounts gets pretty close for less....

I know quite a few people that are using Premium Plus and it makes a lot of sense to them cause they get the stipend back....  close or more than what they would spend extra buying lindens every X months or so while on regular Premium ... specially with L$50, L$99 events all over... in summary, they would  spend more than the Premium anyway.... and getting a few every week makes it more engaging... (always get some to spend.... along with other perks they like, more land... and spending less real dollars, than they would otherwise... ) 

Based on that, I would add the cost of owning/renting for that same land allowance to your spreadsheet, which is probably one of the main reasons of getting a membership... $48 a year for Plus, $84 for Premium, $156 for Premium Plus based on mainland tier for 512, 1024 and 2048 sqm... the amount of "money" you would save compared to not having a membership (can be seen either by saving on renting land or by not having to buy lindens)... would be about $14 for Plus, $47.4 for premium, $ 42.4 for Premium Plus assuming the math is correct... but its all about the "real" dollars you are paying before and after the membership... 

EDIT: the spreadsheet below shows year costs based on mainland tier and instant buy for Linden Dollars (it includes current transaction fees for buying lindens) and only takes in consideration land and lindens, not any other perks (linden homes instead of mainland, groups, etc..)... if you look at Premium Plus vs 2 Premium, it gives an idea of the dollar cost for the extra perks when comparing both... (less than US$ 5 dollars a month... and many may consider as nothing for the benefit of future 2048sqm linden homes, extra experience key, groups, etc, compared to what they already spend in-world ) 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Andred Darwin
Add spreadsheet screenshot

[Gwin LeShelle]

I think this is awesome, I am premium plus but I have some RL friends that do not play that much but always wanted to be able to OWN mainland not just rent from someone ^ ^ I told them about it (because this post was in English and both are only speaking japanese) and they went right away to get it ^ ^ so yay

[Marianne Little]

Plus should allow for a 512 m Linden Home as an alternative to Mainland. If it really is meant to be for newcomers, a Linden home is the easiest way to get a home, no need to learn about buying land.

Bellisseria is also a well done landscaped place, where there is no risk for an AFK sex place popping up next door. It is a safe place to live, while one learn about SL.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Marianne Little
typo and adding a few words

[Marianne Little]

20 hours ago, BJoyful said:

Will Plus members have access to Premium Sandboxes?

Reed Linden said "No" on Friday, when I asked about it.

I think it's stringy.

No access to Premium Sandboxes is really spitting on Plus.

Plus is only in name... it is only the ability to buy Mainland, and that's something we must pay for. Not even a 512 m Linden Home.

You are almost Basic, you get a small stipend in addition to the privilege of buying Mainland.

[Qie Niangao]

15 hours ago, Andred Darwin said:

Based on that, I would add the cost of owning/renting for that same land allowance to your spreadsheet, which is probably one of the main reasons of getting a membership... $48 a year for Plus, $84 for Premium, $156 for Premium Plus based on mainland tier for 512, 1024 and 2048 sqm... the amount of "money" you would save compared to not having a membership (can be seen either by saving on renting land or by not having to buy lindens)... would be about $14 for Plus, $47.4 for premium, $ 42.4 for Premium Plus assuming the math is correct... but its all about the "real" dollars you are paying before and after the membership... 

Well, kind of. Those Mainland tier costs (I bolded above) are only really viable when packaged with that bonus tier that comes with the corresponding subscription plan, and represent (expensive) incremental tier. Few would pay US$4 per month for a bare 512—that's over L$230 per week. Sure, there's some additional value to owning a parcel over renting it, but… that's expensive. You're surely correct that some folks perceive it as a savings, but that savings would be by comparison to a product that's not really on offer.

1 hour ago, Marianne Little said:

Plus is only in name... it is only the ability to buy Mainland, and that's something we must pay for. Not even a 512 m Linden Home.

You are almost Basic, you get a small stipend in addition to the privilege of buying Mainland.

That's the thing about Plus: the subscription is pretty simply a Mainland ownership plan, with the small L$ stipend somewhat offsetting the US$ fee. Conceptually, that's a good thing for the Lab to offer: they've got Mainland to spare and there absolutely are folks who wouldn't rent but would pay some extra to own their little personal parcel—an introduction to the Land product that broadens its market. That's smart and I hope it works, but this plan is an expensive way to own Mainland.

On the "plus" side (heh) it should be easy for Plus subscribers to recognize what a better deal Premium is, for very little extra cost (net of stipend), and take that next step towards tier addiction.  I just expected the pusher-man to offer lower cost samples.

[Marianne Little]

@Reed Linden

What happens if a person pays for for an annual Plus membership, and decides Premium is better after a few months? Will his Plus membership cost for those months be subtracted from his Premium membership?

 

[Andred Darwin]

33 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Well, kind of. Those Mainland tier costs (I bolded above) are only really viable when packaged with that bonus tier that comes with the corresponding subscription plan, and represent (expensive) incremental tier. Few would pay US$4 per month for a bare 512—that's over L$230 per week. Sure, there's some additional value to owning a parcel over renting it, but… that's expensive. You're surely correct that some folks perceive it as a savings, but that savings would be by comparison to a product that's not really on offer.

You are right, I used mainland tier, cause I could not find or come up with an average... I looked for a few minutes in-world for a 512sqm rental, the few I found vary in rental price a lot, from almost nothing (80L/week) up to 500L/week ( parcel ocean front in a really nice decorated sim),  the main idea was to maybe add that spreadsheet as a way of comparing costs in addition to the ones you posted, using real dollars, at least with me when I started, that was my "worry"... how much would I spend on the game, the numbers for sure can change on that column ( Tier ) depending on which "land" you would be looking for. Please share what would be more "realistic" prices for rentals, I can post a new screenshot with the new numbers... feel free to edit it as well.... for the linden to dollar conversion I was using the regular "Buy L$" at the account dashboard.

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Plus should allow for a 512 m Linden Home as an alternative to Mainland. If it really is meant to be for newcomers, a Linden home is the easiest way to get a home, no need to learn about buying land.

From the newcomer perspective, I think that's correct. From the Linden perspective, though, they may be trying to "solve" Mainland, and Belli probably hasn't been very effective in drawing people into owning the Mainland product.

(I actually love the 512 Bellisseria homes, especially the trailers. But even if a Linden Home were an option for Plus, at current prices, Premium still would be a starkly better deal after stipend.)

____________________

Here's a tangent that's been churning around in my head for a while: Imagine a private landlord trying to offer something like Bellisseria, specifically targeting Plus members. Now, this idea has some exceptionally dismal economics, it's nothing like a viable business, but perhaps it's informative to see how badly it fails.

The idea would be to operate group land in a kind of condominium arrangement, where "condo management" offers a dedicated group for each 512m²* parcel, and when a buyer joins the group and contributes 512 bonus tier plus a maintenance fee, they get a role with whatever privileges are appropriate for the Belli-like community the condo is trying to create. Let's just suppose that groups and scripts and maybe bots can automate all this.

Now, how much can that maintenance fee be? Psychologically, it's a lot like rent, but on the other hand, the condo represents a curated Mainland experience, something better than shopping catch-as-catch-can in the abandoned granite wastelands. And they may offer some of the Belli-like enhancements for a higher fee: choice of designer prefabs, a la Mole? Roads and landscaping, maybe some water features? And buying that condo-quality curated Mainland to begin with. This starts to add up.

But it's way worse than that. As I calculated above, the marginal cost of that Plus 512 is L$167 per week, but the value of that amount of tier at the full-region tier level is only L$75 per week. So, compared to simply renting that parcel, taking the "condo" approach of group-deeded land ownership is equivalent to throwing away more than half the condo-buyer's cost for that contributed tier.

Not a viable business plan unless "ownership"—even condo ownership—commands a vast premium over rental. But it really shows how great a deal Bellisseria is, compared to Plus Mainland ownership.

______________
*or 560m² because it'll be group-owned, and not much use for remainder of the 10% group bonus.

[Gwin LeShelle]

I was like "aww why can't plus members don't have a 512 linden home" either when I first read the post but...really it's the residents fault, when I see how perverted some people play game of homes as they call it they probably didn't wanted to give those people a cheap option x3

and why no premium sandboxes? Because they are premium, and they are one of the most liked perks by many premium residents, so taking that away from the premium plan, would ruin their own business model

Edited November 21, 2022 by Gwin LeShelle
Sorry for bad English I swear my japanese is better lol

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Andred Darwin said:

Please share what would be more "realistic" prices for rentals, I can post a new screenshot with the new numbers

Right, it's a shot in the dark no matter how we try to do it. I used net costs because they're simple arithmetic, but that doesn't begin to capture what different users value about different manifestations of the Land product. I actually expect a substantial number of residents will opt for the Plus plan, but I have no intuition for Marketing and can't concoct a quantifiable "why" for them to do so.

[Andred Darwin]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Right, it's a shot in the dark no matter how we try to do it. I used net costs because they're simple arithmetic, but that doesn't begin to capture what different users value about different manifestations of the Land product. I actually expect a substantial number of residents will opt for the Plus plan, but I have no intuition for Marketing and can't concoct a quantifiable "why" for them to do so.

I guess the main thing will be the "real dollars" they will spend compared to what they spend now (or not... )... if you kinda like SL, but it's not sure, and don't actually have any land.... $5.50 a month in a full year plan ($66) is not that bad... any perception of worth may change a lot if you "enjoy" or not SL... no questions Premium has a lot more to offer than Plus, its a better deal, and eventually, any Plus member may choose to "upgrade" to Premium or even Premium Plus...  but it's not likely, someone new or starting in SL would have that "perception" of being worth right out of the gate (it is $99 dollars for a year, way more on monthly plans), neither someone just looking to save some money and still use SL (downgrading), specially if using multiple accounts and using group bonus to hold land.

Edit: What I would really like is if the land allowed would be 1024, 2048 and 4096 sqm instead of 512, 1024, 2048 sqm for the same price! If the goal was to increase the usage of mainland, that would probably be a boost (even at the "granite" abandoned land) 😛  

Another edit: Would also be "cool" if something like the above could be implemented as an incentive... keep a membership for a certain period of time... get a "boost" on land holdings for as long as you keep your membership.... 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Andred Darwin

[Marianne Little]

I think any level of Plus, Premium and PPlus has too little land included.

I agree that it should be much more. Like @Andred Darwinand others suggested.

But SL will not kill the land market? So many of us get more and more land because we want to set out more plants, nicer furniture etc etc. (Not that it isn't great looking low Li furniture, but I got to the point where I feel that I only use that, and would want some 20 - 30 Li furniture instead of 6 - 10)

SL runs on tier and rentals. And we stay here and pay as much as we can afford. At least I do. If I could, I would have a region with 30 000 Li.

[Andred Darwin]

21 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

But SL will not kill the land market? So many of us get more and more land because we want to set out more plants, nicer furniture etc etc. (Not that it isn't great looking low Li furniture, but I got to the point where I feel that I only use that, and would want some 20 - 30 Li furniture instead of 6 - 10)

I think the land market (rental companies, etc...) are somewhat protected by the land prices itself, and with better "looking" land, that price will increase even more... some rental "businesses" work with group land, where the "user" can donate its tier, and pay less for more, way cheaper if you are going over the membership land allowed specially if you factor in the price of the land itself and the extra monthly tier... ( sometimes even on a private estate where your membership tier makes no difference ).

Some rental "companies" just add a rental box on a bare land... some actually "develop" and decorate the land to provide better view /experience... so maybe some will be affected, some will actually grow even more. For sure someone that actually runs one of those businesses today can provide a better opinion.

For SL is the game of "pennies", how many would actually buy more land and develop it while keeping the same tier (probably the good case scenario) vs how much would be "lost" in current tier (some PPlus would not have to pay for an extra 2048 in tier... )... your last sentence or argument goes for the "good case scenario"... and for sure your land would look better than an empty abandoned land... 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Andred Darwin

[Marianne Little]

... and for sure your land would look better than an empty abandoned land... 

...............................................................................................................................

You can bet on that! 😉 🤣

I hate huge privacy walls and ban lines.

[Ceka Cianci]

2 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

I think any level of Plus, Premium and PPlus has too little land included.

I agree that it should be much more. Like @Andred Darwinand others suggested.

But SL will not kill the land market? So many of us get more and more land because we want to set out more plants, nicer furniture etc etc. (Not that it isn't great looking low Li furniture, but I got to the point where I feel that I only use that, and would want some 20 - 30 Li furniture instead of 6 - 10)

SL runs on tier and rentals. And we stay here and pay as much as we can afford. At least I do. If I could, I would have a region with 30 000 Li.

I think a big reason for  there even being a Basic Plus, Is because they want that membership be more focused on to occupying the mainland..

If they made linden homes a perk, then Basic plus members would more than likely just do the linden home and mainland still not be getting populated..