SL new user retention, expectation and usability

[Madelaine McMasters]

11 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

The majority of people I know spend a ton of money on their phone and don't have devices that would run SL.  

This is a demographic shift that works against SL. Laptop/desktop sales are in a decline that's projected to continue for years, while most humans have smartphones capable of running at least some form of SL competition.

[EliseAnne85]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

This is a demographic shift that works against SL. Laptop/desktop sales are in a decline that's projected to continue for years, while most humans have smartphones capable of running at least some form of SL competition.

And, it's a shame in some ways, Maddy.  I know people who live on their phone and listen to music on those horrible phone speakers and it sounds terrible; I wonder sometimes if the younger generation as ever heard music and I mean sound-wise.  The newest "gadget" that I know of is someone is coming out with a blockchain phone set to be released about the beginning of 2023, last I heard.  I don't know if it's going to be a hit or a flop.  I would not want it.  I'd love to have a Smart TV but I know nothing of Smart TV's or if a Smart TV could run SL or not.  If it could, that I would love.  SL on a big TV screen.  VR I'm not a fan of having something on my head.  

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 hour ago, Quistess Alpha said:

I agree, The test image isn't really a fair comparison. I'd have to see a control using baked textures to mimic SSS' (perhaps only at specific viewing angles) or a more fair color balanced example. one on the right just looks redder.

Technically speaking most (if not all) current skins already make some attempt to mimic SSS by using subtle changes in the colouration of the skin to accentuate certain features. 

In reality a persons skin isn't different colours on different areas of the face, the reason the cheeks are redder and the boney areas are lighter in colour is due to subsurface scattering, so any skin which uses colour variation to highlight features like cheeks, knuckles, etc. is emulating SSS.

[Coffee Pancake]

If SL is going all in on the desktop gamer PC demographic (which includes us, even though many will scoff at the gamer label), maybe LL need to lean in and make SL more appealing to that demographic.

I'm not talking about making SL explicitly into a game, but picking up UI and control schemes from games, doing everything they can to give a gamer coming to SL as smooth a transition as possible.

The shared language of video games is a key element in enabling gamers to jump from title to title and not have to relearn everything from scratch. This is not a new thing, anyone here who had a NES .. ever notice how jump and shoot were 99% the same between all games, this wasn't by accident.

This could be as simple as a control scheme selection at launch much like blender has .. one for the new people, one for us oldbies.

[Lindal Kidd]

5 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

a student typically makes a judgement about the professor on that first day and usually doesn't change it.

This is why I always wore a big red clown nose on the first day of class.

[EnCore Mayne]

let's face it. we are on our own. LL has pretty much abandoned us to make the world as we will.

and that's the problem, isn't it?

the experiment of a user created world did not/does not have any overarching cohesive structure. LL doesn't have a problem. their revenue may be flat, the bugs are constant (keeping the devs busy), the innovations and new features are impossible with the spagetti code, the frustrated and concerned are patted on the head (or perma banned), and the world goes on (till it doesn't).

our amateurish attempts at making a real game with goals and purpose and community is beyond our limits. we may have individually created brilliant forms of 3D sculptures replete with life-like sensibility. but there's no life in them. there's no dynamic interaction with them or to them. the platform's there for a complete sensory immersion, but really, it's just for looks.

who knows what their neighbours are doing? do you have them over for dinner or cocktails on the dock? how difficult would that simple gesture be to create? to what end would the gift of creating such a scene be to anyone other than the host? is it even possible, now or in the future?

i knew when i entered SL that the potential for the game to reach a believable living space could only be stopped by the lack of love for one another, the loss of ambition as a driving force, or the unequal exchange for time input. you may have your own reasons.

point being: we have failed SL.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, EnCore Mayne said:

point being: we have failed SL.

I don't agree that we have failed SL. 

We're monkeys with typewriters, sometimes we get a few good words strung together. We're not a billion dollar game dev studio with huge teams driven to exhaustion creating sweeping narratives.

We're severely limited by the capabilities and tooling of the platform. Better tooling and capability increases the scope of project a lone of small team can approach. 

Once upon a time it took an entire studio to turn out a playstation 1 game, now with modern tooling a single person can accomplish most of one on their own or with a friend.

SL has not advanced the platform or tooling in any meaningful way.

[cunomar]

PS1 games were better than PS4 games because somewhere along the line it became all about graphics for a realistic experience . They forgot about fun and entertainment . Same happened with movies for a while , I despaired when stepdaughter and her boyfriend , teens at the time , returned from the cinema and offered as a review "the graphics were amazing" , when pressed for the storyline they both admitted it was a bit daft and not something I'd watch .

Newbie avatars could be labelled Dunce 1 Dunce 2 Dunce 3 ......................... and we live in a world of plastic vanity . 

How hard would it be to offer a disney like cartoon avatar making new players stand out without insulting them ?

A set of good clothes for the said avatars each outfit relating to an experience - tuxedo and gown because your going to a ballroom or bathing suit because your going surfing , a reason to change clothes .

I assume the mainland has lots of long standing sims that might suit a certain outfit , put your coat on to play in the snow that sort of thing .

Somewhere to go while learning , somewhere you will see other players even if they are griefers which will at least let you evaluate your own look and question how it can be changed .

Try and add some fun by making the first hour a set game with clothes that fit , you can't go swimming in a ballgown - not yet anyway .

Currently its open day of a new school and kids are locked in a classroom for hours with teachers screaming you will learn algebra before that door opens , the X button is a big ground floor open window .

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by cunomar

[cunomar]

Going back to 1967 for inspiration and i wasn't even born then lol every episode he picked a different outfit .

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by cunomar

[EliseAnne85]

9 hours ago, EnCore Mayne said:

but there's no life in them. there's no dynamic interaction with them or to them. 

I disagree in that there is no "life in the objects".  And, there is interaction with certain items like, for instance, some tinies have babies or the whole outfit just makes "you".  What bothers me are the dance floors that are too bright; I have to derender almost every dance floor or I can't enjoy my avatar or other people's avatar with those bright glowing dance floors.   I like to be in SL with just a regular floor.  I recently found out how to turn off glow, thankfully.  With EEP, at least on my end, glow is too much now.  

People put their heart and soul into the work here but people appreciate very little in that they tire of it quickly and are off shopping again in a few hours.  A lot of people, imo, really don't take the time to enjoy the items they've purchased.  I heard of a couple who rents and  re-decorates a new home every three days.  My new goal in SL is to start enjoying and appreciating the things I have in a home like I do in real life and making my SL home my home.  

[Nalates Urriah]

17 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Ah yes, this true.  Lots of good information in your post.  Just wondering why coffeepancake said ten minutes and it's quitting time for many sign-ups.  So, I assumed it might be 'something' has changed and that something might be technical.  I was hoping some geeks might chime in here.  

The Lab has always had a hard time marketing SL. Virtual worlds are unique in computer gaming. I suspect the reason for people looking in and quickly leaving is SL is not what they expected.

Try explaining to someone what SL is. Also, consider what the majority of people consider a game. Games tend to have an objective, goal, scoring, and/or competition. So whether SL is a game is debatable. We do tend to call it a game. But to those coming in cold I doubt they can figure out what SL is or what to do with it. It isn't what they expected if they can't find a gun and kill something in the first few minutes.

Another problem in western markets is "choice", as in the number of choices given. Traveling overseas one finds that in Asian and other markets the number of choices in the model of, say, a boombox is 3 to 5 times greater than in a US market. In most games your choices are very restricted. In SL they are nearly infinite. That is way more than most can deal with.

The number of controls in most games is small. The SL viewer has over 3,000 controls/settings for customizing your experience and adapting to your computer. When one understands SL started out as a rapid game design platform it puts some of the issues in perspective.

 

So, I don't see the user retention problem as matter of technology or viewer design. I think it is much more a marketing problem. A user expectation problem. SL is a mismatch for most gamers. But, the Lab markets to that demographic. That we have a huge number of signups and low retention rates indicates it isn't a matter of reaching people, it is a matter of keeping them. Past studies have shown what keeps people in SL for longer than the typical 2 years. No one has figured out how to implement that knowledge.

[EliseAnne85]

3 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

I think it is much more a marketing problem. 

That's a good post, Nalates.  I just wanted to say what caught my attention was that one could get a job here.  Not all are that motivated to do that, I'd guess.  The job made me think I'm going to take my time and work at things here.  I think their beginning video here is pretty good, however.  I like it.  Why?  It's intriguing is the best I can describe it.  

[Ardy Lay]

I have been looking for a record of the version of Orientation Island that I experienced.  This is not it.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Ardy Lay

[Ardy Lay]

Okay, this looks more like it, but, isn't this the same place?

Yes!  This is it, and it looks different to me because I didn't rush through it.  I explored each of the four areas beyond the four tutorial gates.  There is the Segway, the dumpster, the cyber rat.  This is what I experienced oh so long ago.  It seemed to work, even though my computer was very not capable, and I was on a phone modem for dial-up connection to the Internet.  The viewer had most of the island's textures and the tutorial textures bundled in the installer, so I didn't have to wait on those.  Load times got long, and client-server timeouts were common once I left Orientation Island.  The viewer kept abending on HEAP allocation failures after spending 20 to 40 minutes collecting textures.   was displayed where textures hadn't loaded, instead of the current 50% grey.  Ahh, the good old days!

Edited August 27, 2022 by Ardy Lay

[Ardy Lay]

The videos I have found do not include the entire island experience.  Here is another part covered by a different person.

 

[TimKoul]

On 8/27/2022 at 10:08 AM, Nalates Urriah said:

The Lab has always had a hard time marketing SL. Virtual worlds are unique in computer gaming. I suspect the reason for people looking in and quickly leaving is SL is not what they expected.

You can't market a virtual world that doesn't utilize any modern hardware. Technology advances while SL doesn't. You can't market that. People come in and see 10 fps and leave. 

[EliseAnne85]

7 hours ago, TimKoul said:

You can't market a virtual world that doesn't utilize any modern hardware. Technology advances while SL doesn't. You can't market that. People come in and see 10 fps and leave. 

This could be somewhat true as I have heard it stated before but it's silly as there are ways to tweak for more FPS.  

I think one problem is simply TIME.  SL takes TIME.  

Another thing with devices all over the place, and the chip market going to start changing once again to more energy efficient chips, devices/fps will/could change (again).   But, a new chip generation is beginning.

Another thing I was thinking with new players is that the new thing is PLAY TO EARN games and they are very popular but SL is the opposite and is kind of EARN TO PLAY.  If SL could start some way for new players to have something that is PLAY TO EARN, it might be worthwhile.  The problem with PLAY TO EARN is that I've read some companies are finding it's not very profitable for them.  PLAY TO EARN games are getting a lot of press lately so I've been reading about them but I am no expert.  This is all just my opinion from what I have read.  It was just an idea to throw out there about what is popular in some 'games' right now.  At least that's what I read.

Or, maybe another thing SL could do is run promos every now and then where you EARN TO LEARN.  

Edited August 28, 2022 by EliseAnne85

[Blaise Glendevon]

10 hours ago, TimKoul said:

You can't market a virtual world that doesn't utilize any modern hardware. Technology advances while SL doesn't. You can't market that. People come in and see 10 fps and leave. 

Are you playing on a potato?

[diamond Marchant]

On 8/28/2022 at 8:22 AM, TimKoul said:

You can't market a virtual world that doesn't utilize any modern hardware. Technology advances while SL doesn't. You can't market that. People come in and see 10 fps and leave.

I run SL on a  laptop with a midrange GPU and rarely have client-side problems with frame rate. When it gets laggy for me, it usually is server-side and involves other avatars.

CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-10750H CPU @ 2.60GHz (2592 MHz)
Memory: 32676 MB
Concurrency: 12
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 10 64-bit (Build 19044.1889)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 Ti/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 4096 MB

Edited August 29, 2022 by diamond Marchant

[Coffee Pancake]

3 hours ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

Are you playing on a potato?

Have you tried playing any modern AAA games on your not potato computer? You might be somewhat blown away by what your hardware can accomplish.

SL, at its absolute best is generations behind. Modern hardware can do in real time what we need photoshop to do for flickr ..

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

5 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Have you tried playing any modern AAA games on your not potato computer? You might be somewhat blown away by what your hardware can accomplish.

SL, at its absolute best is generations behind. Modern hardware can do in real time what we need photoshop to do for flickr ..

You have to possess a lot of dedication to the platform to want to spend days (if not weeks) creating something like this in Second Life

when other platforms running on modern hardware are capable of this...

 

[TimKoul]

Imagine you just bought a $3000 rig with the latest graphics and processing power and a program from the early 2000's is telling you your recommended settings are low to mid.

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, TimKoul said:

Imagine you just bought a $3000 rig with the latest graphics and processing power and a program from the early 2000's is telling you your recommended settings are low to mid.

* Imagining in progress * I imagine that must be quite upsetting. 

Assuming we are imagining your actual situation: Perhaps this means your rig is lacking in some ways that actually count for Second Life. My 10 year old machine works fine on higher settings.

If we are imagining some hypothetical scenario: Hypothetical scenarios do not raise to the same level of concern.

https://secondlife.com/system-requirements

Edited August 29, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[TimKoul]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

My 10 year old machine works fine on higher settings.

Welp, can't argue with that. That sentence can end any argument here. Carry on.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, TimKoul said:

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

My 10 year old machine works fine on higher settings.

Welp, can't argue with that. That sentence can end any argument here. Carry on.

Whoa! I get it, I proved your point!

Well done!

Edited August 29, 2022 by Love Zhaoying
Sometimes people's arguments are so solid, that unnecessary sarcasm just confuses the issue!