Forum Changes -> Web User Group on August 3, 2022

[Garnet Psaltery]

57 minutes ago, blissfulbreeze said:

Since LL wants to sanitize the forums, which I don't blame them, why doesn't someone start a discord group to discuss anything? Why doesn't someone start an in world discussion?

Instead of trying to overturn things, would be less stressful to make your own platform.

Discord gives me the willies.   Please don't go there.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

2 hours ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

Discord gives me the willies.   Please don't go there.

Discord is what people went too because of skype being just horrible,  people went to discord because of groups failing and it's way way easier to keep in contact with people on the outside of SL that we know in SL. 

[Innula Zenovka]

5 hours ago, Dafadilia Wayfarer said:

I do appreciate your feedback, but this really doesn't address the issue that LL needs to come up with tools for deaf/hoh users so they can also experience real time voice meetings and events so we can participate and have a voice.

 

 

Do they need to develop their own tools, though, or to look for ways to make it easier to integrate  third-party proprietary tools with the viewer, for people want or need to use them?

 

 

[Dafadilia Wayfarer]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Do they need to develop their own tools, though, or to look for ways to make it easier to integrate  third-party proprietary tools with the viewer, for people want or need to use them?

 

 

I said what I wished to on this matter. I'm not going into it further. I stick by exactly what I said.

It really is best I leave it at that.

[Persephone Emerald]

I'm not going to say anything more on this matter.

(Oops, I said something more.)

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

13 hours ago, CandyCole said:

The 'Invision Community' forum software is commonplace for fora out on the interwebs and THIS is the only IC forum I know which does not employ the 'Ignore Topic' feature. What I do not know is if is a paid-for extension to the forum. I suspect that it is. On other fora I do ignore certain topics not pertaining to the overall subject of a forum, such as politics, Covid etc.. on a sports forum.

My shortcut to this forum is for a 'View New Content' link in which I have weeded out some of, in my opinion, irritating areas of contribution. For example; the Events section where someone posts an almost daily topic in CAPITALS about some LION CLUB or something. I got rid of that spam-like contribution a few weeks ago. My view new content has been cleansed.

I don't want to be exposed to absolutely everything on this or any other forum. Being exposed to every contributor is part and parcel of forum life. If you block an individual then it doesn't make them disappear, the system subsequently reminds you of the fact that you've blocked them by offering an option each time to view what they posted anyway. This is more of a distraction than actually not ignoring them in the first place. 

I only ever visit THIS forum when I have an issue or opinion or simply fancy reading what's currently on people's minds in SL. I do not visit for off-topic banter. The recent changes will not impact me in the slightest.

The amateur radio board I'm on also uses InvisionBoard and it's built in on the default install. This board has been modified to make it work with the Lab's log-in system for an easier flow between the other parts of the website and here.

The radio board's admins wanted to migrate to FB, but many spoken up gave a big resounding "no." So they asked a few long time members if they wanted to Mod and the admin's stepped back with some directives to keep the beast tamed.

[Madelaine McMasters]

23 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

23 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

.....I have never understood why LL hosts this forum in the first place. It made some sense back in the days when there was more focus on co-opting free resident energy to Answer questions, but they shifted away from that when switching to this new forum software. I can't see LL's dashboard, but I hope the changes they are making benefit SL overall, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

I've heard you say this before and it puzzles me.

When I consider a new game I peek at the game forum first. If nothing much is going on in the forum I tend to think nothing much is going on in the game and feel less inclined to check it out. It's a bonus for me when I see some real life engagement too, of an intelligent sort, as I then imagine there might be interesting people in the game I want to meet.

Sam captured some of my thinking, which is somewhat (maybe?) independent of my personal perspective...

22 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

When I go to a game forum, most likely the reason I am going there is to get information about the game, not to play the A-Z letter game or discuss current RL events.  If I see more GD than game information I tend to think that the forums have more interest than the game itself.  I want to see game tips, instructions and help if I am having an issue.  

I was in SL two years before discovering the forum in search of some scripting information. Had the forums been only for answering questions, I'd have been in and out and back to SL. But, I'm a forum creature by nature and there was a lot more going on here, so I got sucked in. @Scylla Rhiadra and Pep were the first to capture my attention with their rather spirited discussions. Most of my friends come from the forum. I can access the forums (and therefore my friends) anywhere, anytime. SL itself must wait 'till I'm home and ready to sit at my computer, and I can only communicate with those who're at theirs.

Luna, I've highlighted a portion of your comment in purple. I have never met most of my forum friends in-world. Still, I have met them, and that's of great value to me. SL might enrich those friendships (might also kill them ;-), but the forum enables them at a level that's often sufficient for me. What I do know is that SL itself is not sufficient for any lasting friendship. Within weeks of meeting my last partner, we were on Discord. For the last year of our relationship, we were only on Discord.

I can't re-run the experiment, but I can imagine that I'd have spent much more time in-world (generating revenue for LL) over the last dozen years if I'd not found the forums. I can also imagine that I'd have left long ago, for some place with a vibrant forum.

Though I have enjoyed the forums for over a dozen years, I do not assess their value from my perspective. I try to imagine what benefit they bring to LL, which must prosper if SL is to survive. The creation of the now moribund "Feeds" suggests that LL thinks there is value to an out-world extension of the SL social network. There is. That the Feed is moribund (the front page shows the most recent 10 posts(I think), and that spans... a week) shows that LL didn't understand what was needed. Something is needed. I don't think GD is that thing. I don't think the Feeds are that thing.

Your puzzling over my position is understandable. How could I not understand the value of something I value so highly?

Once again, my thinking is somewhat (maybe?) independent of my personal perspective. SL has great value to many people. For that reason, the survival of SL is much more important in the grand scheme of things than my relationship with it, and all of you (who mean a great deal to me).

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Inara has posted her take on Keira's remarks

https://modemworld.me/2022/08/04/forum-changes-keira-linden-speaks/

[Ceka Cianci]

Take it from me, If you want to know where the line is nowadays after the changes. Use zero tolerance as a hard line on where not to cross, because that's where it is. Trust me on that.

I knew I shouldn't have started to relax yesterday.

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

Take it from me, If you want to know where the line is nowadays after the changes. Use zero tolerance as a hard line on where not to cross, because that's where it is. Trust me on that.

I knew I shouldn't have started to relax yesterday.

 

 

Well, that's a bit disturbing. I'm sorry, Ceka! 😔

But, at the same time, I note that you obviously weren't suspended (or otherwise penalized?) for whatever it was that crossed the line.

[Ceka Cianci]

47 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, that's a bit disturbing. I'm sorry, Ceka! 😔

But, at the same time, I note that you obviously weren't suspended (or otherwise penalized?) for whatever it was that crossed the line.

{Edited out}

I got suckered in when I should have known better and that's my fault for relaxing..

A lot of posts in threads that I am seeing are starting to make me nervous for you guys.

I'm just stressing that, The line is very clear and zero tolerance is the clean and clear line..

Anyone selling that it's not, I'll take with a block of salt.

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Seicher Rae]

2 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I'm not crying about being warned for the first two times ever.. I got suckered in when I should have known better and that's my fault for relaxing..

A lot of posts in threads that I am seeing are starting to make me nervous for you guys.

I'm just stressing that, The line is very clear and zero tolerance is the clean and clear line..

Anyone selling that it's not, I'll take with a block of salt.

 

I read your original and... not sure what all I can say here and stay in back of the line to toe, so here goes...

Regarding some recent "pings" that came with "you violated community TOS, here's a copy of the rules" that I believe MANY people got, several in one thread due to some mild derail, I was told "don't worry about it" by an employee. It is basically SOP for a notice that the post was pulled. (Although it is all rather opaque as to why, etc. unless the moderator comes in and posts in public the 'why'... which has been done recently.)

I was also told that LL did away with the point-system (for offenses) years ago.

So. That made me feel a little better? Kinda? Sorta? Maybe. I dunno. I agree: Tread with caution, which isn't fun and conducive to "let's play."

[Persephone Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I'm not crying about being warned for the first two times ever.. I got suckered in when I should have known better and that's my fault for relaxing..

A lot of posts in threads that I am seeing are starting to make me nervous for you guys.

I'm just stressing that, The line is very clear and zero tolerance is the clean and clear line..

Anyone selling that it's not, I'll take with a block of salt.

 

I think we need to consider it may not only be posts from after July 30th that will be deleted. In that thread with the colonization issues being discussed I think those posts were older (correct me if I'm wrong.) My guess is we'll see older posts as well as newer ones disappear, but if you get one of those warnings when one of your posts is removed, don't let the aggressive language at the end upset you. This seems to be a stock message. LL really needs to create several different warning messages for different kinds of removals, especially since we can't really ask why a particular post was removed.

[Seicher Rae]

10 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

This seems to be a stock message. LL really needs to create several different warning messages for different kinds of removals, especially since we can't really ask why a particular post was removed.

This. This. This. THIS.  

And it totally baffles me, has always baffled me, why we can't ask, or better yet, just be told what the heck we did! If you post a bunch of little posts, all over the place, like I have been known to do once or twice, and then you get some random "we pulled it, you messed up, here's the entire list of rules" how the heck is that a learning tool to prevent you from doing it again? In that case you don't even know what post they pulled, and you have to go back and search, and if your memory is like a gnat's like mine is... you never have a clue.

They know why they pulled the post, slapped a hand, how hard is it to let us know why? One step? "Send out that form letter for this kind of thing. Fill out a blank for that kind of thing." Templates people!

 

ETA: That's not only good customer service (the more specific templates) but it is also a time saver for the employees and therefore a MONEY saver! One and done, is the saying. Send out the hand slap, with a simple explanation of why, a copy of the rules, say WHAT post was pulled (copy the post!) and... done. That way the customer knows "ooohhhhh, I see, that was bad, ooops" and doesn't do it again, AND then they don't type 15 IMs to the mod asking "whhhhy????" Efficient. Helpful. Win-Win

Edited August 4, 2022 by Seicher Rae

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

23 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

I read your original and... not sure what all I can say here and stay in back of the line to toe, so here goes...

Regarding some recent "pings" that came with "you violated community TOS, here's a copy of the rules" that I believe MANY people got, several in one thread due to some mild derail, I was told "don't worry about it" by an employee. It is basically SOP for a notice that the post was pulled. (Although it is all rather opaque as to why, etc. unless the moderator comes in and posts in public the 'why'... which has been done recently.)

I was also told that LL did away with the point-system (for offenses) years ago.

So. That made me feel a little better? Kinda? Sorta? Maybe. I dunno. I agree: Tread with caution, which isn't fun and conducive to "let's play."

In the meeting where I typed my concerns, a couple others sent me PMs they were also dinged.  I replied it's best taking it with Keira via the email she provided and not bring it up on the open board. On many internet mboards there's a post from the admin indicating that talk about bans or warnings should be kept private or bought up with a Mod.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Kimmi Zehetbauer
Old age.

[Seicher Rae]

2 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

In the meeting where I typed my concerns, a couple others sent me PMs they were also dinged.  I replied it's best taking it with Keira via the email she said to use and not bring it up on the open board. On many internet mboards there's a post from the admin indicating that talk about bans or warnings should be kept private or bought up with a Mod.

Yup, I did that. However, if you note my ETA to Persephone (directly above) I gave a suggestion for a better (imho) route, which would avoid having to waste the time of a mod with PMs, if they just made it better communication with the first hand slap.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

14 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I think we need to consider it may not only be posts from after July 30th that will be deleted. In that thread with the colonization issues being discussed I think those posts were older (correct me if I'm wrong.) My guess is we'll see older posts as well as newer ones disappear, but if you get one of those warnings when one of your posts is removed, don't let the aggressive language at the end upset you. This seems to be a stock message. LL really needs to create several different warning messages for different kinds of removals, especially since we can't really ask why a particular post was removed.

If you reply in the PM from the staff giving the warning and ask nicely, you may get a copy of the post that was hidden so it's not a mystery.

[Persephone Emerald]

7 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

[snip]

...What I do know is that SL itself is not sufficient for any lasting friendship. Within weeks of meeting my last partner, we were on Discord. For the last year of our relationship, we were only on Discord.

I can't re-run the experiment, but I can imagine that I'd have spent much more time in-world (generating revenue for LL) over the last dozen years if I'd not found the forums. I can also imagine that I'd have left long ago, for some place with a vibrant forum.

Though I have enjoyed the forums for over a dozen years, I do not assess their value from my perspective. I try to imagine what benefit they bring to LL, which must prosper if SL is to survive. The creation of the now moribund "Feeds" suggests that LL thinks there is value to an out-world extension of the SL social network. There is. That the Feed is moribund (the front page shows the most recent 10 posts(I think), and that spans... a week) shows that LL didn't understand what was needed. Something is needed. I don't think GD is that thing. I don't think the Feeds are that thing.

[snip]

I don't think Discord or forums outside of SL are that thing either, and I think LL will end up hurting user retention and reducing time and money spent inworld, if we don't have both easy to use inworld Chat and an SL supported forum community.

I agree the "political" discussions have gotten a bit too hot lately. I think the answer to this problem would've been saying "no political discussions please". Given the state of Real World affairs, I think it's irrational to expect forum users should never mention them. If the economy is tough, that's likely going to affect our ability to use SL. If we're upset by RL events, it's natural that we'll want to vent a bit to people who've become part of our social and emotional support system.

When I'm inworld I get IMs from other people who likely don't want to read 3 or 4 paragraphs about how I'm really doing. Often I feel like they expect me to be friendly, cheerful, and supportive of their problems. If I do mention mine, then I feel like I can no longer use SL to "get away from them" because people will keep asking how I'm doing. The forums let me read other people's issues, and choose if or when I want to respond. They let me choose if or when I want to vent. They let me choose if I want to read a silly, uplifting joke thread or a potentially more serious subject, and if I want to stop reading and back out of that thread I can. No one is forcing us to read anything here, but I like having these subjects as an option to read them - kind of like newspapers used to be before all the topics were force-fed to us by Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Seicher Rae]

1 minute ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

If you reply in the PM from the staff giving the warning and ask nicely, you may get a copy of the post that was hidden so it's not a mystery.

Ah, good to know, thanks. (Hopefully I won't keep needing this kind of info! )
But again, if you get a warning, and then because it is totally "huh???" so you have to then PM the staff, and if you're lucky it is just a few PMs back and forth, not 6+ ... that's totally more annoying to everyone as opposed to "just give us the information, short and sweet" in targeted form letters! You shouldn't  HAVE to PM to find out why you got a hand slap, let alone have to ask "um, what post? where? huh?"

[Seicher Rae]

4 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I agree the "political" discussions have gotten a bit too hot lately.

I edited out all the goodness there, and there was so much that was spot on. Thank you.

I haven't been around the "hot" political "discussions" that were here lately. However, if they were anything like they were 2 years ago, and considering some of the Usual Suspects are still around, I would assume they were similar to 2 years ago, then "discussion" is a misnomer.

Two years ago, people were attacking each other. They were not discussing the topics, and not respectfully disagreeing. For example I was called stupid and a racist, neither of which I am. I had people cast aspersions on my character. Etc. People can have deep, serious, controversial discussions and disagree without being twits (spelled differently). It shouldn't be "no political discussion" for the very reasons you mentioned in the bit I snipped out of your post. It should be "don't be jerks"... and moderated accordingly. In my opinion. 

Respectfully submitted for your consideration.

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I'm not crying about being warned for the first two times ever.. I got suckered in when I should have known better and that's my fault for relaxing..

A lot of posts in threads that I am seeing are starting to make me nervous for you guys.

I'm just stressing that, The line is very clear and zero tolerance is the clean and clear line..

Anyone selling that it's not, I'll take with a block of salt.

I recently stated that I don't AR posts based on LL's rules, I AR them based on my rules. It's pretty much the same for posts.

I will not change my behavior here based on the new rules. The repercussions of me living my life by my rules are ever present. I was laid off from GE for being "high maintenance". I did not expect that. I was not surprised by that. I was not upset by that. I have no great concern about being banned from SL for being me, though it would be a fascinating thing to witness.

If I have a concern, it's being created by wholly understandable reactions like yours. The worst thing that can happen to anything that wants my interest is to become uninteresting itself. That might happen if people like you become cautious.

1 hour ago, Seicher Rae said:

Tread with caution, which isn't fun and conducive to "let's play."

Exactly this, Seicher. Play is foundational to the success of SL (and humanity).

42 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I don't think Discord or forums outside of SL are that thing either, and I think LL will end up hurting user retention and reducing time and money spent inworld, if we don't have both easy to use inworld Chat and an SL supported forum community.

I agree with this, and the entirety of your post, Persephone. Humans connect in various ways, at various times, for various reasons. Whether SL can thrive without affording a variety of ways is unclear to me. Any ways that SL supports must work for the benefit of the company. I'm glad I don't have to figure that out.

[Ceka Cianci]

2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I recently stated that I don't AR posts based on LL's rules, I AR them based on my rules. It's pretty much the same for posts.

I will not change my behavior here based on the new rules. The repercussions of me living my life by my rules are ever present. I was laid off from GE for being "high maintenance". I did not expect that. I was not surprised by that. I was not upset by that. I have no great concern about being banned from SL for being me, though it would be a fascinating thing to witness.

 

The main reason is, those things put me in a bad mood.. I'm not going to keep getting put in a bad mood.

I'll just not come here anymore if it happens again.. I got tired of my job because of too many rules.. I left it too.

[Madelaine McMasters]

52 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

The main reason is, those things put me in a bad mood.. I'm not going to keep getting put in a bad mood.

I'll just not come here anymore if it happens again.. I got tired of my job because of too many rules.. I left it too.

I probably hate rules as much as you, but I'm stubborn (stupid?) enough to ignore them. If you do go, I'm gonna hunt you down in-world to add you to my "Warm Welcomes" gallery, and possibly to get my "\o/" fix now and then. It is ironic that I resurrected the fireplace (after Scylla's continued harassment) just in time for a potential exodus of potential victims from the forums.

I know who you people are. You can run but you can't hide.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Scylla's continued harassment

So AR me. I dare ya!

Or better still, immolate me!

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So AR me. I dare ya!

Or better still, immolate me!

...moves you to the top of her burn list*

 

 

*because your existing photo in my Rogue's Gallery has you paired with You Know Who.