Could Linden Lab even clean up Second Life if they wanted to?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

I can't find your quote now where you mentioned a rating for extreme violence, but I have to say I am sympathetic to that, but not entirely convinced.

Whilst I really don't want to encounter a graphic GIF of an execution playing on a billboard next to a Zindra road, i have never encountered one... nor can I think of a framing of such a rule that also wouldn't endanger the sharing of images like the iconic Vietnam picture of the child running away from a napalm bomb.

I think allowing Governance some discretion that they may already have even in Zindra sufficient, if they don't have that discretion I would advocate for a change specifically for execution\violence graphics.

 

I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on your objections, as my proposal wouldn't in any way endanger the sharing of such images. At worst, it would mean that the parcel or region in which they were shared would carry an "extreme violence" rating. And in the instance that you particularly mention I don't think that would be warranted.

There's always going to be some subjectivity and fuzziness in any kind of rating system: that's certainly true of the current rating system. This last weekend, I stood in a store in an "M" rated region, looking for a sale item, and noticed a couple "testing out" the adult animations on a chair they, I presume, were interested in purchasing. Nobody, including myself, seemed particularly disturbed by it, but it was, technically, a breach of the ToS.

The current system has some fuzziness and exceptions built in. Nudity is permitted in M regions, for instance, as is sex out of the public eye. You can't post porn in a Moderate region either -- but the ToS makes (if I remember correctly) an exception for works of "artistic merit" (however you want to define that). So, no, you can't post pics ripped from some gonzo porn site online. But you can post photos or paintings or drawings that include nudity, and even some mild sexuality, if they are in some discernible sense "artistic." I don't see why a similar principle couldn't apply to violence. Caravaggio's painting of the Judith and Holofernes is intensely violent and awful -- but I think it qualifies as "art," and I'd exempt it from the "extreme violence" rating for the same reasons I'd exempt Boucher's "La Toilette intime (Une Femme qui pisse)" from having to be in an Adult region.

The point of such a rating isn't to hide stuff away or prevent it from being shared: it's purely informational. It would do nothing more than tell potential visitors that, if they visit this place, they are likely to run across depictions of extreme violence. It doesn't need its own continent, a la Zindra. And, in practice, it would almost certainly mostly be applied to particular RP areas. I don't think it would be very difficult to manage, to be honest.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I didn't see anything about "discrimination" in the Original Post, perhaps that was some other thread?

Yeah, a lot of the "let's talk about [thing]" threads draw various veering off-topic arguments ("straw man" or otherwise) as people interpret the topic during drift. Not that we need to police every thread, of course!

You're right. My screw-up. I'm confusing two frankly rather similar threads. (I suspect Persephone got the idea for this one from the other, in fact.)

[Chaser Zaks]

14 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Maybe I've missed it -- but has anyone in this thread actually argued that SL should be "cleaned up"???? I.e., that it should have content removed or existing behaviours banned and restricted?

Even the OP, as I understand it, was just asking for an end to "discrimination" against certain kinds of avatars -- not the banning of anything.

I think a few people here are tackling a strawman of their own making, perhaps?

I felt that adding in "should it" was a important part because it asking "could" shouldn't be asked alone without "should".
I didn't read anywhere that op was saying to end discrimination, just:

Quote

If LL wanted to clean up SL's image by making other depictions against the TOS, would they be able to enforce that? I don't think they let all that go on because they really don't care or because they want the money of those who engage in those particular kinks or questionable roleplay. I think they let it go because trying to stop it would be a task that even Hercules wouldn't be able to tackle,

which reads to me as "LL is letting it go on because it would be a headache to clean up", rather than "LL chose to not clean it up as to keep it's existing user base".

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

You're right. My screw-up. I'm confusing two frankly rather similar threads. (I suspect Persephone got the idea for this one from the other, in fact.)

Even a broken clock is right twice a day! I only get one more today, and it's early, darn it!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, Chaser Zaks said:

I felt that adding in "should it" was a important part because it asking "could" shouldn't be asked alone without "should".
I didn't read anywhere that op was saying to end discrimination, just:

which reads to me as "LL is letting it go on because it would be a headache to clean up", rather than "LL chose to not clean it up as to keep it's existing user base".

See my response to Love above: the "discrimination" bit was a confusion on my part.

I think that the OP is asking this in a rather rhetorical way -- and, again, I don't think anyone here (unless I've missed it, which is possible, as I seem a bit fuzzy-brained at the moment) has responded in the affirmative.

But I take your point: you're responding to a hypothetical question with an answer that examines the principle proposed.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think that the OP is asking this in a rather rhetorical way -- and, again, I don't think anyone here (unless I've missed it, which is possible, as I seem a bit fuzzy-brained at the moment) as responded in the affirmative.

Sometimes it's all about "how" the topic is brought up, whether it is really intended for discussion vs. "poking" people to get reactions. I'm learning, slowly, but hopefully learning.

[Maryanne Solo]

On 8/2/2022 at 2:21 PM, Sammy Huntsman said:

I think that LL should penalize creators that don't optimize their builds, on top of maybe start getting rid of stuff before 2018. I think they should clean that up. 

There should be official LL courses that people can take if they want to.
I've said it a bazillion times,  -> educational content.
This would offset the slippery stuff metinx.
Clatter. O noes! dropped my bottle of baby oil.... 

[Always Incognito]

Second Life has a ”certain” rep that, sadly, has the effect on us user so we hesitate to talk about it with ”no SL friends”. I try to post on Twitter But I wouldnt talk about it irl even if I know i have friends who might like it.

This is  mostly due to the bad press SL got regarding ”adult” stuff. LL let go of it a bit too much for a while maybee. (Journalists are paparazzis at heart).

 LL has done a lot last years, Bellisseria, separate adult and so on. So today its fine But the reputation is still not. Maybee the only thing They need to do is rebranding… 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Always Incognito

[Katherine Heartsong]

4 hours ago, Chaser Zaks said:

2. Second reason, what should be cleaned up?

Umm, here's one thing that might need cleaning up ... the apparently RL b#stilety images I found the other day in a group description (and have reported to LL three times now), i.e., a thing that's illegal in most countries in the world? And probably anything to do with age stuff.

I don't think anyone would argue against cleaning that up?

Consenting legal adult stuff though, regardless of kink, is okay.

How difficult some of it would be to clean up, the subtle darker corners, who knows? But if it's a "search for group for less than 5 seconds with common words, see illegal pR0n as there image for the group", it should not be that hard.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Katherine Heartsong

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Always Incognito said:

LL has done a lot last years, Bellisseria, separate adult and so on. So today its fine But the reputation is still not. Maybee the only thing They need to do is rebranding… 

And the media would immediately write

<rebranded life> Still the same old broken mess infested with <most extreme thing they could find>.

If they purge the adult content, the headline becomes .. 

<rebranded life> Asks Tumblr to "hold my beer" and purges adult content .. who is this even for now?

 

[Quartz Mole]

I've just had to remove several posts to keep this thread on its original topic, which is Could Linden Lab even clean up Second Life if they wanted to?

Discussions of what "woke" means, and whether being woke is a good thing or not, are not on topic for this thread and, in the light of the new forum guidelines would, I think, best be held somewhere other than these forums.

If you receive a message saying I've removed your post, please don't be too upset about it -- it doesn't mean we're about to suspend your account, or anything like that.  It's just a notification that I've removed the post.  That's all.   It doesn't necessarily mean there's anything particularly wrong with the post itself, other than that it quotes from another post that has been removed, or makes no sense without its context.

As a general rule, I think it would be a good idea if people don't reply to posts they think are taking the thread off topic, since it only makes more work for the moderators.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Quartz Mole

[Crafthouse]

....

Never mind.
 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Crafthouse

[Always Incognito]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

And the media would immediately write

<rebranded life> Still the same old broken mess infested with <most extreme thing they could find>.

If they purge the adult content, the headline becomes .. 

<rebranded life> Asks Tumblr to "hold my beer" and purges adult content .. who is this even for now?

 

Sure They Will But only a few will read that and SL Will have a new shiny up to date name we could use in social media. 🥳

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Always Incognito said:

Sure They Will But only a few will read that and SL Will have a new shiny up to date name we could use in social media. 🥳

And people will come .. see that 'its just second life .. and walk away.

The last time SL did the numbers organically on social media was when a significant number of people ponied us up as a joke to laugh about Zuckerberg's legless meta.

SL's issue is that it's not new. Everyone who is likely to come here has already made an account at some point over the years, and the overwhelming majority of them bailed out after their first session.

When people ask "what's cool and new about SL" the answer can't be "the opportunity to burn $50 US on a great looking avatar!".

[Andred Darwin]

I think the best thing we can do, is to report when we see something that we feel is against the TOS (like what the OP mentioned LL tried to cleanup)... if LL does not do anything about it (which I don’t believe its case)... shame on them! All the TOS does is give them legal coverage and basis to take actions when needed…

I also believe, as of SL reputation (and TOS compliance), at least from my in-world experience... it improved a lot!

There are quite a few of really impressive builds everywhere, even on mainland (Flickr, Destinations Guide, are full of examples )... and how many times we see communities where all it took, was one resident to come, work on their land and see that work spread around, new people with sort of the same goal in mind coming in... contagious... (my point is, you will/can get what you look for…).

I believe we are responsible for SL's reputation to an extent... considering performance and viewer speed (SL viewer, Cool VL for now) improved a lot, I think the biggest barrier is the cost to maintain those nice areas, friendly areas, communities, etc... which probably helps build or balance a good reputation. ( to the OP’s point, the XXX play reputation in SL is not that expensive from a user/visitor standpoint… no maintenance costs, a basic membership with age verification is all it takes… although the issue mentioned specifically should have no place anywhere .. )

Maintenance cost is too expensive, land is already expensive to buy, but maintaining it is way more expensive  … 512sqm, 1024sqm, 2048 sqm has its place ( people do seem to enjoy Belisseria alike, etc ), but it’s quite small to fully enjoy, all those really nice places to visit, which makes SL really cool to explore, builds a “good” reputation for SL, are many multiples of that… and rarely they continue to exist for a long period of time… there is also a reason why those pilling skyboxes do exist (cheap!).

It becomes a “snow ball”… too expensive, I like to see but I can’t build mine…, people leave or it becomes a once in a while thing….  this is “kinda puzzling”… with all that abandoned Mainland as an example ( which you need a premium subscription to “own” ), a server is online doing nothing… of course we don’t know the break even ratio, but there might be a point where, in an analogy, would be better to have 10 sales at L$500 than 2 at L$1000… not to count the economy snowball effect… (land requires effort, decorations, buildings, clothing, avatar accessories, furniture, etc…). How many more “nice” places could we see if all that abandoned mainland would be maintenance wise affordable or at least people could use more space for the same? How many “nice” places would not only continue to exist, but improved on? How many new players would SL be able to attract and retain? ( Bjoyful as an example created a community in a somewhat ugly area in the Mainland with high mountains in part, that attracted, kept growing… contagious… How many people with the same skills are out there? )

I hope SL will work its magic to make “land maintenance” more affordable along with current improvements (things are getting better!) , so people can come, create, retain and build on the great ideas, communities, which are the “motor” of what SL is today… (and also shapes SL’s reputation).

[NevaehHeartstrings]

8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Even a broken clock is right twice a day! I only get one more today, and it's early, darn it!

You know it’s a bad day when you jump out of bed and miss the floor!

[Love Zhaoying]

6 hours ago, Quartz Mole said:

I've just had to remove several posts to keep this thread on its original topic, which is Could Linden Lab even clean up Second Life if they wanted to?

Discussions of what "woke" means, and whether being woke is a good thing or not, are not on topic for this thread and, in the light of the new forum guidelines would, I think, best be held somewhere other than these forums.

If you receive a message saying I've removed your post, please don't be too upset about it -- it doesn't mean we're about to suspend your account, or anything like that.  It's just a notification that I've removed the post.  That's all.   It doesn't necessarily mean there's anything particularly wrong with the post itself, other than that it quotes from another post that has been removed, or makes no sense without its context.

As a general rule, I think it would be a good idea if people don't reply to posts they think are taking the thread off topic, since it only makes more work for the moderators.

Thank you!

[animats]

Twitch's banning of SL remains a big problem. That needs a negotiated solution between Twitch and Linden Lab. It's the kind of thing where, after some preliminary discussions, the CEOs meet. Both companies have HQs in San Francisco. Someone should set up lunch.

"Whose mind has to be changed to solve the problem?" - old ITT problem solving guide.

[Persephone Emerald]

11 minutes ago, animats said:

Twitch's banning of SL remains a big problem. That needs a negotiated solution between Twitch and Linden Lab. It's the kind of thing where, after some preliminary discussions, the CEOs meet. Both companies have HQs in San Francisco. Someone should set up lunch.

"Whose mind has to be changed to solve the problem?" - old ITT problem solving guide.

We don't know what's in the mind of the CEO of Twitch. For all we know the CEOs may have played golf together & one thought the other had cheated.

[Coffee Pancake]

16 minutes ago, animats said:

Twitch's banning of SL remains a big problem. That needs a negotiated solution between Twitch and Linden Lab. It's the kind of thing where, after some preliminary discussions, the CEOs meet. Both companies have HQs in San Francisco. Someone should set up lunch.

"Whose mind has to be changed to solve the problem?" - old ITT problem solving guide.

Back when we (Catznip) did all the SL / Twitch integration work (waaay back when Twitch needed to be embedded in your app/game) we got given the run around and shifting excuses that finally settled on "LL doesn't own everything on screen", which seems pretty nonsense in a world of fan modded games and minecraft, over the years the sands have shifted over and over and .. 

Finally Twitch settled on an Adult content policy, and to no one's surprise Second Life is on the list.

Twitch also hosts a staggering amount of soft core porn under the "Just Chatting" and "Pools & Hot tubs" categories.

Getting SL onto Twitch would require SL destroying policy changes on our end & sacrificing the entire adult community.

 

[NevaehHeartstrings]

Edited Duplicate

Edited August 3, 2022 by NevaehHeartstrings
Duplicate

[NevaehHeartstrings]

Edited

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by NevaehHeartstrings

[Sorina Garrigus]

Actually I think LL cares quite a bit about such issues even from a business point of view. I mean it is just bad PR. But they can't be everywhere. In the early days it was very wild west but they added adult sims and such to help separate such things out. But People in SL need to report things like simulated acts with a child avatar. 

[Always Incognito]

12 minutes ago, Sorina Garrigus said:

Actually I think LL cares quite a bit about such issues even from a business point of view. I mean it is just bad PR. But they can't be everywhere. In the early days it was very wild west but they added adult sims and such to help separate such things out. But People in SL need to report things like simulated acts with a child avatar. 

Iv seen ppl publish some ugly stuff in Twitter too without hiding it publicly, which u can do i think. That is careless and users brings such bans on themselves while not thinking. Or its on purpose maybee… like a flasher 😐 

[Sorina Garrigus]

11 hours ago, animats said:

Twitch's banning of SL remains a big problem. That needs a negotiated solution between Twitch and Linden Lab. It's the kind of thing where, after some preliminary discussions, the CEOs meet. Both companies have HQs in San Francisco. Someone should set up lunch.

"Whose mind has to be changed to solve the problem?" - old ITT problem solving guide.

They can just allow streaming from non adult sims and you would think it should be fine.