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Sorina Garrigus

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Everything posted by Sorina Garrigus

  1. Amethyst Jetaime wrote: If what you say is true then why did the maker of Greedy update his products and remove the pay option then give them for free to anyone that has a Greedy Table? He is not licensed and has no intention of making skill games that fall under the policy. You answered your own question. " He is not licensed and has no intention of making skill games that fall under the policy" Exactly. Karsten has no intention on going through the skill game creator process. For him to continue to selling his games he can not have his games require or permit pay in and win options. He used a funky work around with his prize server for years. "Skill game creators" have to be approved with this new policy in order to continue to sell their games including multiplayer games. That question was very CLEARLY about using a game for personal use or with friends instead of for commercial use. AGAIN go off the definition of what LL is calling a skill game. If you take that response out of context for non reality based reasons and assume that is the definition of what a skill game is instead of a question about personal use, then it would conflict with the policy and FAQ in innumberable spots. It would also mean all freeplay games no matter what the kind are within the policy but the policy and FAQ CLEARLY states freeplay are not within the skill game policy. Don't go giving advise and quoting a random blurb CLEARLY out of context. It destroys any credibility you might have on future subjects.
  2. Amethyst Jetaime wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: Just a curiosity... Unless you've left a bit out of the LL quote, it's wrong. It says that "Any game of skill that offers a Linden Dollar payout is subject to this policy.", but that's not true. Such a game would also need to be capable of accepting payment to play. Nothing was left out. That was an exact cut and paste from the FAQ. Your confusion is understandable. The FAQ and policies were clearly written VERY poorly and for me to elborate further will only sound like a direct insult to the writers. But you have to your quote's context. The question was "I do not want to ‘operate’ a game of skill that offers a Linden Dollar payout as a business; I just want to play it myself / with my friends. Can I still do that?" Any game of skill that offers a Linden Dollar payout is subject to this policy. I think the question was having a skill game for personal or with friends. For example having a real slot machine in your real house that your friends might play when they come over as opposed to be used for more obvious commercial use. Through the entire policy it refers to the policy addressing "Skill Games" which is clearly defined. “Skill Game” refers to any game: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law." Are “freeplay” games in Second Life subject to the Skill Gaming Policy? Freeplay games, in which the sole payment required or permitted is a nominal Linden Dollar payment for the sole purpose of triggering gameplay and is immediately and automatically refunded without conditions of any kind, are not within the scope of the Skill Gaming Policy. It is best to go off how LL defines skill games then from a poorly worded response to using a skill game that pays out for use for only for friends or yourself. They were trying to say it doesn't matter if its for personal or friend use as opposed to commercial use, the polices hold the same for both.
  3. irihapeti wrote: for a game to fall under this policy it must meet all 4 criteria in your case it dont meet no. 3) + just on games where is pay to play and get no pay from the win. As a option then: leaderboards are good. Like can play for free. But if want to enter your high score on the public leaderboard then that be 1?L please. Pay or not as you like This would not work. This is exactly why the policy says payment is required or permited. Paying leader boards will not work or last as a work around for the policy.
  4. firebug77 wrote: Hi everyone. My question is if I decide to open an Arcade, where someone has to pay to use the games, but does not win anything, in return, is that still considered a "Skilled Game"? If I understand the definistion, as listed in http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Policy, " “Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law." then an arcade, such as the ones in Real Life, where you go and pay $0.25 to play the game, but obviously, you don't win anything from, under this definition, it would be considered a skilled game, despite no Linden payouts. Do I understand this correctly? You can operate pay games with no money to win and does not fall with in the scope of the skill game policy You can operate free play games with money to win and does not fall with in the scope of the skill game policy You can operate freeplay games with money to win that requires a L$1 pay in with immediate refund to play and has money to win. which does not fall with in the scope of the skill game policy Any game that is freeplay has been repeatedly stated in FAQs, policies etc as Not within the scople of the policy. Older pay and win games used as free play are not within the policy. This is further clairified by games which require a instant refunded payment to start the game to get it to start. Only older pay and win games have start options. Disregard individuals making statements outside the facts which are the policies and FAQ. Are “freeplay” games in Second Life subject to the Skill Gaming Policy? Freeplay games, in which the sole payment required or permitted is a nominal Linden Dollar payment for the sole purpose of triggering gameplay and is immediately and automatically refunded without conditions of any kind, are not within the scope of the Skill Gaming Policy. What Does Linden Lab Consider a skill game? “Skill Game” refers to any game: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Some are unaware or ignore for their own reasons, that there are a good number of games out there that had optional pay ins such as multiplayer games. This goes back 7 years. But arcade style play is perfectly fine. It is unclear if ticket redemption for prizes (teddy bears etc) would be within the scope but it likely might not be bothered with. Many laws include things of value which LLs own wagering policy does. If prizes are non transfer it can be argued that virtual prizes have no real value since they can not be sold and eventually turned into real currency. The win non money prizes is a known way for people to attempt to get around gambling laws. Most famously is Pachinko in Japan which allows such practices but many countries would not. Gambling for money is not legal in Japan so the winnner of the prizes walk across the street and sell them. This is wny the thing of value is found in many laws and policies like the wagering policy. But as sketchy as the new policies are I would suggest talking to an attorney on that if you intend to go with a ticket redemption approach.
  5. Rae Bluxome wrote: And thank you very much Dillon for looking into this! Pentadee is a lot of fun, it is exactly like Yahtzee. There are other Yahtzee-like games in SL, but Pentadee is the best. If you like dice games but want something that offers more player choices check out Can't Stop
  6. "If the table has an option to pay to play, even if you have it set for free to play, it is illegal even though it is in a private home" That is false but you already knew that.
  7. Perrie Juran wrote: Pay to play and pay to start are not exactly the same thing. You are correct, pay to play, which is really pay to start is ok as long as the starting fee is (instantly?) Returned. It is a nominal fee (ie L$1) which is refunded immediately. Only games that were made to pay to play have this pay and refund to start the game option to avoid making additional game start routines. "Freeplay games, in which the sole payment required or permitted is a nominal Linden Dollar payment for the sole purpose of triggering gameplay and is immediately and automatically refunded without conditions of any kind, are not within the scope of the Skill Gaming Policy." The policy clearly states in several places that freeplay are not within the scope of the policy " Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy."
  8. Amethyst Jetaime wrote: If the table does NOT have a pay to play option you are legal. If the table has an option to pay to play, even if you have it set for free to play, it is illegal even though it is in a private home. The creator must be licensed to create skill games, the game itself must be licensed and located on a gaming sim and the owner must be licensed as an operator. On November 1, LL will start enforcing the policy. They may remove it, and possibly suspend or ban your account if your game is illegal and you are not a licensed operator. No one knows how they will go about enforcing the policy. They could just do it by responding to an AR, or they could be actively looking for illegal games on the grid. If I were you I wouldn't take a chance if the table has a pay to play option. I would remove it from your home. You may want to contact the creator to see if they have updated the card table and removed the pay to play option from it. Whether the update will be free or not is up to the creator. This is false. read the FAQ. I would agree with contacting the owner on updating a game but the FAQ makes it clear freeplay is fine even with pay to start options. Also LL has approved very illegal games already.
  9. Perrie Juran wrote: The more I read complaints the more befudled I am getting. What is so difficult for people to understand that there are laws LL has to comply with? And that because of the complexity and variety of the laws they need a Policy that may in some cases appear to be stricter than the Laws. What is so hard about this? Most of the laws LL has to "comply with" are 7 years or older. Also LL has games that pushed way to far into chance approved on their approved game list. Any game on that list gives the impression that it has Linden Lab's blessing. A couple of the game that are approved on that list they might as well have slot tournaments approved on there as well.
  10. irihapeti wrote: which law in your country do you think it would be appropriate for LL to break so that you can gamble ?? If your saying Linden Labs would be breaking laws so someone can "gamble" then what about the last seven years that they allowed skill games and permitted games that pushed way too far into the area of chance to grow forcing competition to get those as well. And what about some of those games such as PI games which becaues they put the word Tournament after the name on games where you get 20k in points pretty much randomly (many times its not even there). A game that is kinda sorta but not really multiplayer doesn't make it legal or within TOS. Bingo is a kind of tournament game. RL casinos have slot tournaments. I won't name names but more than a few individuals in the game industry in SL are not only perplexed, frustrated, and even sickened why blatant games of chance have been approved by PI games while they struggle to be compliant. Your question should be addressed to LL. There are quite a few laws they feel appropriate to break as long as they have the legal protection to dodge the bullet of responsibility. They are happy to if they can and have profit off them. Many of these changes are nessessary. Many of those changes should have happened 7 years ago and there is no excluse for LL not to have even tried to do so. ESPECIALLY before they got rid of the 18 and older requirement to be in SL.
  11. jimmythesaint wrote: people have a lot to learn about what the meaning of skill gaming is A game of skill is a game where the outcome is determined mainly by mental or physical skill, rather than by chance. A game of skillgenerally has an element of chance, but skill plays a greater role in determining the outcome. .but this ios not true in sl guess someone needs to come up with another dictonary with what the meanings of words r in sl because they r not the same as they r in rl A game of skill skill can have chance elements BUT the skill has to be the predominant factor. My go to example is Backgammon. You roll the dice, and then determine what you will do based on that roll. The websters definition and the legal definition of a game of skill are two different things. I will say there are some games in the past that LL has allowed that are not skill based and at least one or possibly two on the approved list that are definitely not skill based games by any definition. I am not an attorney but I imagine they still have a potential liability situation by the fact they are posting the approved list essentially telling residents these games are ok to use and have LLs blessing. Clearly LL wants to allow such games and absolve themselves of legal responsibility as much as possible. But with games of pure chance on the approved list it still creates the problem of the last 7 years. Where people will play the game of chance LL allows while the more true games of skill are pushed into the background. This is what has happened the last 7 years since the wagering on games of chance policies. What LL actively allows that is outside their policies shapes the entire skill game industry for competition reasons. It would be great if grown adults had the freedom to play pay and win games as they like but that isn't the reality. Because special interests groups and lobbyists trumps freedom. LL needs to act fairly towards all and they haven't. "Residents" have to interpret what is allowed by what actually happens in world because it simply does not conform to what the policy is because LL wants the income.
  12. irihapeti wrote: i have a inworld friend who plays (now used to play) NoDevil i ask him why. He says is just something to do when he is not making and putting stuff in his shops i ask him how is that working out. He said pretty good. Sometimes I win 20,000L I go: annnnd?? and he laugh and go: and sometimes I lose 30,000L and I go: how often do that happen ?? and he goes: more times than I win 20,000 I tell him he need get a life. He laugh even more and say true I get a IM from him yesterday. He wants to know where he can get belly dance animations I go" waaah!! what for ?? and he goes: I got a girlfriend so I give him a list of places they can go and get. He was pretty happy about that. I never met her yet but am pretty sure she be pretty happy about it as well. Him getting a life (: Nice story but honestly "Getting a life" doesn't really happen in Second Life. It happens in First Life. On rare occassions it can be the same but only to the very very few.
  13. Dillon Levenque wrote: I've had enough of this thread. The dealer in a game of Blackjack played by the rules followed in the US always wins in the long run. Guaranteed. The players that actually win at Blackjack (as opposed to claiming they win, mostly by ignoring the fact they've lost sixteen bundles over the last month in favor of admiring the bundle they won today) do so by various strategies almost all of which are based on counting cards. Most casinos watch for those people and toss them as fast as they can. Anyone who enters a gambling casino* expecting to win is an idiot. Every casino owner knows this. You make your money taking advantage of the stupidity of other people. I hope you're proud of yourself. *I will make an exception to this. In California, where I live, there are what are called 'card rooms' legal and licensed in some places. They sometimes get called casinos, but in most jurisdicitons the only form of gambling allowed is card games in which players compete against each other Games like Poker, for instance. The house takes a cut from every pot in exchange for providing the place and maybe a dealer. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone entering a Casino expecting to win is COMPLETELY insane or has a way to cheat. It's not stupidity. I would have a hard time imagining anyone thinking they will definitely will win a game of chance. The would be called a game of definitely winning. NOBODY is this stupid. I do believe anyone that goes into a casino thinking it as a way to make money is acting in a VERY unwise fashion. Anyone that plays such games should only do so with their entertainment dollar. And good job calling billions of people stupid including most likely some members in your own family. Nice one.
  14. irihapeti wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: If the dealer had choices it wouldn't be effectively AI, it would just be I. He is following a script/rules. Here is one example of "program" they follow If DEALERHAND < or =16 then hit else If Dealer has Soft 17 then hit If Dealer has 17 then Stay End Program A computer programed opponent would be the same exact thing. It is programed to respond based on conditions it encounters. is nothing intelligent about these kinds of programs as wrote. Is no more intelligent than print "Red" then "Green" then "Blue" if was writing a program that exhibit intelligence using your example then If DEALERHAND < or =16 then ReviewThisPlayersPreviousActionsAndHitStandAccordingly It is not "inteleligent" from a organic humanoid point of view but it is how many games that have what is refered in a rather gimped kind of way as AI. Take the average MMO for example. Player 1 shoots zombie 3. Zombie 3 charges player 1. If zombie 1-5 are in range of the sound of the weapon use they also follow. etc so on. AI in games at this point pretty much is mostly a series of if then statements.
  15. Dresden Ceriano wrote: I'm surprised that people seem so surprised that LL botched the implementation of this policy. Botching implementations is one of LL's most consistent of abilities. In the almost seven years I've been dealing with them, only once have I seen LL implement something competently from the outset. ...Dres I seen botching before but this time it has pretty much been just about every step of the way. I have never seen LL act in such a extreme keystone cops kind of way. But your right because we have had how many years of chat lag and they take their time to add new things to go wrong instead of fixing the antiquated problems?
  16. Dizzyscorpio Dragovar wrote: I am aware that operators are allowed to continue through the approval process BUT..per the skilled gaming policy that was only if apps were put in BEFORE Sept. 1. I am asking how we know who put in before and who was after. We don't LL does. Smart places will post a sign declaring so to avoid confusion
  17. irihapeti wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: ... you pretty much win by getting 20k in points pretty much at random. It is not always available ... Blackjack is effectively a "scripted opponent". The dealer rules are a form of AI. is not correct about Blackjack which is a game of rote. The dealer has no choices. The player has no choices either when deploy the optimal strategy. They just play by rote also. is a grinder are games of rote + about the overpay option is quite clever this I think from a business pov like put in say 20L. The game says play for double your money (40L) or quit and refund 19L. bc 1L is our operator fee and sometimes it says play for 60L or maybe even 10,000L. Or quit and refund your 19L on a skill game where say 1 in 3 plays (overall player mix) result in success completion then a double your money game with sometimes bonus can be pretty profitable to operate the random element isnt in the gameplay in these types of games what does attract players to these games is the frequency of the overpay/bonus that is offered. Less frequent means less players as people learn about other games offered by others + ps. edit i just add on here. The other ones that make big payoffs. Is doubling up. And rebuys like you put in 20L and win 40L. Can cash out or double up for the next level. 80L or nothing with rebuys then if level out then can rebuy to stay on the level. For example if bomb on level 2 then can rebuy to same level for another 20L. Win and get 80L for 40L paid. If get to next level then can double up and carry on. 160L or nothing. or cash 80L and start over If the dealer had choices it wouldn't be effectively AI, it would just be I. He is following a script/rules. Here is one example of "program" they follow If DEALERHAND < or =16 then hit else If Dealer has Soft 17 then hit If Dealer has 17 then Stay End Program A computer programed opponent would be the same exact thing. It is programed to respond based on conditions it encounters.
  18. The reality is we are still in a read our minds policy like it has been for the last 7 years in regards to games. At this point reading and attempting to follow policy is near pointless since we don't know what it is in reality. I mean they approved Reel Wild Progresive "tournament" which you pretty much win by getting 20k in points pretty much at random. It is not always available. Blackjack is more skilled than that game. Ironically some states apparently don't allow playing against a computer opponent for example Chess or Parcheesi. One of these states are Nevada. Which of course is insane when you consider Blackjack is effectively a "scripted opponent". The dealer rules are a form of AI.
  19. Attention Linden Labs. Please disclose ASAP If operators can operate currently on non skill game regions while going through the approval process. Linden Labs not taking action on said sims is a CLEAR message that these sims and operators CAN operate on. I won't name sims but there was at least one sim that WAS a skill game region and reverted to a regular sim fairly recently. That reversion is also a clear message that game operators can operate skill games while going through the approval process. Most operators are working as if the policy is in effect now and must be on skill game regions and are upset and angry at other operators that are not and at Linden Labs. Clairification on this matter is critical for everyone including Linden Labs. There has been talk of law suits, blocking of SL in certain European countries, etc. I have been in SL since 2004 and I have to say this has to be the worse handled policy change in Second Life History. If "Governor Linden" was an actual real governor, I suspect he might be going through impeachment hearings by now. If you can't get a handle on this mess get someone that can or just end it and get rid of all contest related content across the board so residents are left with exploring and porn.
  20. Operators are allowed to continue to operate while going through the approval process.
  21. Coby Foden wrote: Qie Niangao wrote: Sorina Garrigus wrote: In the last day or two as skill game regions it turns out can not be connected to non skill game regions. Converted sims that are have been converted back to non skill game sims. This is a little weird. I imagine it will affect at most a handful of regions, but it's odd that they're just now getting around to setting that rule. Right, this has been added on 29 September: Note: Skill Gaming Regions cannot be located adjacent to non-Skill Gaming Regions. I guess they have not ever played the xploders which were very common in the past. If they had played they would have known that it was possible to play those across region borders. This just shows that Linden Lab do not use Second Life as we use. Thus they migh be unaware of some features what we the users might know. :smileyvery-happy: :smileywink: That sounds about right. They converted sims then unconverted them again. It makes you really think that the current powers that be at Linden Labs does not have a good feel how SL actually functions in reality. They shouldn't know that just because of games, they would be aware of such issues becaues of general griefing and hurrasment issues. Probably thats why people cant interact with objects in a parcel they are banned from. I am no tsure on the pay aspect though.
  22. Amethyst Jetaime wrote: That does seem to indicate poor planning. If a sim is moved it won't cause any disruption. All landmarks and search teleports will continue to work as before. I know this because I have moved several sims myself. It indicates poor planning among other things. Though it is true landmarks may work as normal it still creates disruption for multi connected sims with multiple forms of content. There are large private multi sim islands that will be affected for example.
  23. IMPORTANT TO BE AWARE OF FOR THOSE APPLYING FOR SKILL REGIONS. There is a recent issue in the last couple days that came up that is and will be causing major disruption to Second Life due to multiple examples of incompetance lately that is makes ones head spin. In the last day or two as skill game regions it turns out can not be connected to non skill game regions. Converted sims that are have been converted back to non skill game sims. This is causing either the skill game sim to move or the non skill game sim to move. Forcing who the frak knows how many sims in SL to move. And it gets better. The skill game policy is set ON A BLOODY HOLIDAY! So delays are likely I am sure as a result. The reason for this is because people can play games across a sim border. OBVIOUSLY the powers that be DO NOT test these issues AT ALL. Any game owner or even player would have thought of this issue. The solution to avoid all this garbage is potentially already built into SL but I could be mistaken. When someone is banned from a parcel or sim they are not able to intereact with the objects within said sim. Someone please correct me if I am wrong as I have not been banned too often to know for sure. They could potentially use that feature and adapt it to skill game regions. But still they should have worked out such a obvious technical detail from the start. Or at the VERY VERY least test the fraking thing out ahead of time. Sorry LL I like what you do mostly but there has been a lot of noob level ball dropping lately in this scramble around this policy. Please work it out properly rather than disrupting the grid with for all we know the moving of hundreds of sims. Test new types of regions before hand when you knew this was all coming down. PLEASE for the sake of all including LL, get your act together ASAP.
  24. gotohellworld wrote: Whether the law indicates that a game must be X% skill based in order to be considered a skill game doesn't matter. LL's policy is that a game must have no chance involved. Games on the list are all involving chance, and worringly a big amount of it. Games such as archery, golf, racing, hockey, etc. are skill based. That's what skill gaming should be about. But maybe clicking numbers on a game board is the pinnacle of skill achievement for the SL population, thus making it "skill based"? In the Wagering Policy it states: Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner, OR Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events A random number just can't determine the winner but games like backgammon have both skill and chance involved but skill is the determining factor. The skill game policy states "whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance" Websters dictionary defintion of the word Material as it relates to the topic is . : having real importance or great consequences <facts material to the investigation> in a legal dictionary the term material means as follows material adj. relevant and significant. In a lawsuit, "material evidence" is distinguished from totally irrelevant or of such minor importance that the court will either ignore it, rule it immaterial if objected to, or not allow lengthy testimony upon such a matter. A "material breach" of a contract is a valid excuse by the other party not to perform. However, an insignificant divergence from the terms of the contract is not a material breach. Effecitively chance can be there but it can't out weigh skill. Backgammon is my always go to example of a game that has both skill and chance where skill is the primary determining factor
  25. EmeraldDevotion wrote: This policy really has nothing to do with whether a game takes skill or not, it is really about the money. If a game pays out money LL has stated it is a skill game, which is a load of bull. Just because soething pays out L$ does not mean it took any skill to make the L$. Such as the No Devil games, random numbers popping up that you may get lucky enough to match to one on the board is NOT a skill game, it is a game of chance, but because it pays out L$ it is now considered a skill game. The only "skill" required to play such games is the ability to push a button and match numbers that just randomly get generated. It is horrible, you guys just can't handle anyone making a profit if you aren't getting a cut of it. Don't you make enough off of screwing people over on land prices and such? So let's cut the bull LL, you guys finally realized some people are making bucket loads of L$ at these games and LL isn't getting their cut so they say it's a skill game and now poof they get to make money off of the people by upping the price of land to be a skill game region, non refundable application fee's as well as a quarterly license fee's . They should be ashamed of themselves. The policy is about games of skill with pay and win conditions. If a game is not truely a game of skill that is a different matter. LL is aware people have been making money off skill games for a long time. LL has been making money off them as well. They are getting their cut when people cash out and have been for years. LL is getting a bigger cut now with new fees and an undisclosed quarterly fee. I believe these fees is to compensate for the losses LL will get as there will be far less skill games in SL. LL has allowed skill games since the begining and made it clear they were allowed in the wagering policy in 2007. LL made no effort on restricting access based on age or location. There is an option to restrict based on age on parcels but LL never had such a thing in their policies.
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