Designers that are deliberately avoiding releases for Maitreya?

[nieru]

2 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Legacy is too expensive for many people. It's has the highest render time / ARC. It also has a HUD that requires an outside server. Any of those 3 issues could make it a no-go for some people. It's a beautiful body, but there are plenty of other options that look very good too.

I understand the technical and ethical reasons for some people not liking it, but I have to wonder if the "whales" (players who spend considerably more than average) in this environment really care all that much? At the end of the day they're usually the target demographic for this kind of thing.

[Gabriele Graves]

19 minutes ago, nieru said:

I understand the technical and ethical reasons for some people not liking it, but I have to wonder if the "whales" (players who spend considerably more than average) in this environment really care all that much? At the end of the day they're usually the target demographic for this kind of thing.

I've seen a lot of body survey results.  There is also the work of @Lucia Nightfire who collects mesh body/head stats from what people are wearing.  Her most recent topic is here and links back to previous surveys:
 

No two surveys agree with each other about the exact numbers because all of them only show a slice of the truth but it is the best we have to go on.
Everyone seems to agree though that Legacy hasn't reached anywhere near the level of popularity of Maitreya who sits at between 30-40% depending on who is counting.
At this point it seems likely that the numbers have peeked for Legacy if not already in decline.  There aren't hordes of new people arriving in SL wanting mesh bodies, we have a huge new person retention problem.  This means that except for a tiny amount of people, anyone who wanted a Legacy body has bought one and some of those are now being lost to the other newer bodies on the scene.

Those whales move on very quickly when the next new shiny comes along.  It is not enough in SL to have sold a lot of units, you must also have the mind share of users to go with it.  Once you lose that, people soon forget about you.  The way to stop people forgetting about you is to keep coming up with new things to keep that mind share.
 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[steeljane42]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I've seen a lot of body survey results.  There is also the work of @Lucia Nightfire who collects mesh body/head stats from what people are wearing.  Her most recent topic is here and links back to previous surveys:
 

No two surveys agree with each other about the exact numbers because all of them only show a slice of the truth but it is the best we have to go on.
Everyone seems to agree though that Legacy hasn't reached anywhere near the level of popularity of Maitreya who sits at between 30-40% depending on who is counting.
At this point it seems likely that the numbers have peeked for Legacy if not already in decline.  There aren't hordes of new people arriving in SL wanting mesh bodies, we have a huge new person retention problem.  This means that except for a tiny amount of people, anyone who wanted a Legacy body has bought one and some of those are now being lost to the other newer bodies on the scene.

Those whales move on very quickly when the next new shiny comes along.  It is not enough in SL to have sold a lot of units, you must also have the mind share of users to go with it.  Once you lose that, people soon forget about you.  The way to stop people forgetting about you is to keep coming up with new things to keep that mind share.
 

There's a newer post by Lucia that is also worth checking (I know you saw that thread, but perhaps TC did not).

 

So based on those stats it doesn't look like Legacy is on decline or has peaked yet, it had 2321 new entires for the normal Legacy edition and 894 for the Perky version of it in 90 days. While Reborn, which is all the rage now, had 1780 new ones. Still will be interesting to see next round of stats whenever Lucia will publish it.

Sadly what her stats don't and can't (probably) show is difference between bodies ratio based on the region's theme/content. For the easiest examples: I'm around some adult kinky themed regions from time to time for some RP and socializing, when I'm tired of shopping and building. I'd say it's good 90% Maitreya around those even these days. Lots of "tools" often used around those places are rigged to Maitreya only as well. And then big shopping events on the opening days are completely different, all I see around are Legacy+Reborn+Kupra, with very few other bodies mixed in. Doesn't mean Maitreya users don't shop, not to mention people swap between bodies all the time, but I would guess that avid shoppers are more likely to use non Maitreya bodies. There's also flickr community and I don't really remember any "big bloggers" there posting any pictures with Maitreya for ages (pretty much ever since Legacy release, even more so with Kupra and Reborn added to the mix).

That said Maitreya still is default "to go with" body for many people. It's cheap, easy to use and aside of arms/shoulders is nearly perfect for the slim looks. Curvy Maitreya is "ehhh....", though, the butt deforms rather badly past certain amount of sliders (mostly visible if look from the side), and breasts don't look the best either. Deformers help a bit, but at this point it's already not really a Maitreya and depending on how strong deformers are, some clothing might fit pretty badly. Might as well just use more smooth/curvier body at this point.

---

On a random note, as much as I dislike Legacy HUD, the horror stories about it are rather exaggerated. Web based part of it is needed for BoM activation (once) and the nails/toenails colors (was once for me too). Other 2 sections with alpha, feet shape etc work perfectly fine without media enabled (I always have it disabled pretty much) and doesn't require their server in any way (it did work when their server was down for maintenance a few times, I made sure to check). It's still a terrible design, I agree, but far less issue than people make it to be. Activate BoM/change nails color/polish, detach body, make a few backup copies just in case and done.

---

Now actually to the TC's question. I know a few of such creators personally. No names/brands, obviously. Note that neither of them are new creators and most (if not all) did rig for Maitreya (if they made female clothes to begin with) before and have a devkit. None of them are on Blueberry/Addams/Deadwool scale, though, but you still can find them around popular events every now and then.

Most common reason I heard is: their customer base doesn't need it, which they found by excluding Maitreya from a few releases and checking the sale numbers and amount of request to add Maitreya size. Time is money, and rigging it tiring, that's why most creators don't rig for every possible body on the market. So they've stopped.

Other reason is: just disliking the body/kit, which was already mentioned in this thread, mixed in with same "rigging is tiring" fact. They are loving to create and not in for the profit much, although that pays their tier and gives them more than enough of pocket money to never buy L$ with real cash money again, and they are liking to be a part of creators community as well, so dropping extra profit for own sanity and happiness seems like a good deal.

I know a couple of male accessories designers too, they have dropped Gianni for the very same reasons, even if it's one of the big 3 male bodies on the market.

Edited July 29, 2022 by steeljane42

[Jenna Huntsman]

49 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

Most common reason I heard is: their customer base doesn't need it, which they found by excluding Maitreya from a few releases and checking the sale numbers and amount of request to add Maitreya size. Time is money, and rigging it tiring, that's why most creators don't rig for every possible body on the market. So they've stopped.

The chances are that the reason sales numbers didn't drop off is that a lot of designers make clothing that follows a specific RL reference item, meaning that releasing a Maitreya fit for the item places their item in competition with an item created by a different designer - so, as a user, unless the product has a specific USP (e.g. item is Modify, item is strippable (in stages), etc.), then chances are I'll go buy whatever is cheaper (assuming quality is competitive between the 2).

Messaging clothing creators I've found is a very mixed bag, sometimes you'll get people who couldn't care less about feedback, which puts me off contacting others, because I'd be wasting my breath. (Not to say everyone is like this, but I've had enough bad experiences that I'm hesitant to contact creators these days).

[nieru]

9 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

 

Sadly what her stats don't and can't (probably) show is difference between bodies ratio based on the region's theme/content.

Is the bot open source? Imagine if we could convince shopping events to each put one up and collect all of that sweet sweet data... But until then I'm doing what your friends did and making my next event release legacy only to see what happens. 

[Katherine Heartsong]

15 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

It also has a HUD that requires an outside server.

This alone, as others point out, renders Legacy completely out of consideration for me.

[Cougar Sangria]

I am a Maitreya diehard.  I will be a Maitreya diehard until they turn out the lights on second life.  When I purchased my mesh body I also purchased another meshbody thinking I would switch between the two.  That never happened.  While I have gotten the updates it sits in storage.  The only downside that I have with Maitreya is the shoulders and I fixed that to my satisfaction with a deformer.  I have tried some of the newer bodies just to see what all the fuss was about. Legacy...lower legs and feet are atrocious, along with the HUD/separate server.  Kupra? No. Just No.  Reborn?  Again, No.  Just No.  I am not thick in 1st, and have no desire to be in 2nd.  I don't need to have the newest, trendiest next thing in my closet.  I have no problem finding clothes that suit my taste for Maitreya, and those designers that don't carry my meshbody?  Nine times out of ten not the style I would want to wear.  I have a quote in my profile inworld that serves to remind me each day about my clothing/meshbody choices...Trendy is the last stage before tacky - Karl Lagerfeld. 

[Katherine Heartsong]

@Cougar Sangria would love to know which deformer, thanks. A private message is fine, so to not derail.

[steeljane42]

9 hours ago, nieru said:

Is the bot open source? Imagine if we could convince shopping events to each put one up and collect all of that sweet sweet data... But until then I'm doing what your friends did and making my next event release legacy only to see what happens. 

You can ask Lucia (bot's creator) if it is. But as far as big events go... their owners are usually not the ones who are willing to listen to any suggestions, be it about better user experience, layouts, booth prices and everything else. So I kinda doubt they'd bother to run a bot just to collect the data for the creators.

[Blush Bravin]

Maitreya still has the lead by far so any creator dropping that size is simply cutting off their nose to spite their face; however, I have noticed a huge drop off in support for the petite add-on. That's why I switched Debi over to Legacy Perky. Many of my favorite go-to designers for conservative clothing have dropped petite but do support perky. Also, quite often I can use a regular legacy size when the perky isn't available and it works just fine unless the garment is super low cut. That's not the case with Maitreya and Petite. Also, since I am pretty much totally BoM with Debi having issues with the Meshbody HUD isn't an issue for me. Though, knock on wood, I've not had a HUD issue so far.

[Modulated]

15 hours ago, Cougar Sangria said:

I am a Maitreya diehard.  I will be a Maitreya diehard until they turn out the lights on second life.  When I purchased my mesh body I also purchased another meshbody thinking I would switch between the two.  That never happened.  While I have gotten the updates it sits in storage.  The only downside that I have with Maitreya is the shoulders and I fixed that to my satisfaction with a deformer.  I have tried some of the newer bodies just to see what all the fuss was about. Legacy...lower legs and feet are atrocious, along with the HUD/separate server.  Kupra? No. Just No.  Reborn?  Again, No.  Just No.  I am not thick in 1st, and have no desire to be in 2nd.  I don't need to have the newest, trendiest next thing in my closet.  I have no problem finding clothes that suit my taste for Maitreya, and those designers that don't carry my meshbody?  Nine times out of ten not the style I would want to wear.  I have a quote in my profile inworld that serves to remind me each day about my clothing/meshbody choices...Trendy is the last stage before tacky - Karl Lagerfeld. 

I've seen many complaints about Lara's shoulders but I don't know what they are talking about. They look fine to me with some tweaking. 

[skepwith]

On 7/28/2022 at 5:17 PM, nieru said:

It just makes sense that people who wear the newest bodies are probably the biggest consumers.

On 7/28/2022 at 5:38 PM, Gabriele Graves said:

Tempting as it may be to draw this conclusion, it's probably incorrect as a most other bodies share a much smaller slice of the pie.  That may not be the case going forward but unless one has figures, it cannot be assumed currently.

Ehhh, maybe, but the question doesn't really concern the conclusions we can or can't draw from data, so much as the motivations of clothing creators who also can't really draw a lot of conclusions from data. They're going to operate on similar kinds of "makes sense" assumptions.

I am going to venture to guess that most clothing creators probably think like this:

• Someone who has had the same body for years probably has a mostly sufficient wardrobe and only occasionally adds to it or does partial refreshes.
• Someone who buys a body that is new to them but has been on the market for some time
  • can choose from all the clothes that have been already made for that body and
  • might already have a number of items for that body if they had another body before, since items frequently come with sizes for multiple bodies.
• Someone who buys a body that has just been introduced and isn't compatible with anything has a completely empty wardrobe and a very limited set of options for filling it. Such a person is likely to be more of a big spender than the other two, since they're throwing a pretty good chuck of money into something that might fizzle and probably know that.

My basis for this is that the fairies told me, but anyway it seems like there's an incentive for clothing creators to get behind a new body if they think it's going to trend up for a while, whether it stays around or not, and decreasing incentive to stay behind a body the longer it's been out there even if it's still popular. I'd say there's even some incentive for a creator to help hype a new body that looks like it might go big anyway if they're a big enough name to make a difference.

The real magic is the hype chicken and egg, and spotting a trend early enough or even before it happens if you might be big enough to give it that needed push. None of that can even possibly be data driven, it's basically just Don Draper stuff.

[Persephone Emerald]

48 minutes ago, Modulated said:

I've seen many complaints about Lara's shoulders but I don't know what they are talking about. They look fine to me with some tweaking. 

It's most obvious when you look at where the arms connect to the torso from the back. I also prefer the shape of the shoulders on Isis and Freya. Those are softer & more rounded. Overall, it's a small point of irritation though.

[Modulated]

10 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

It's most obvious when you look at where the arms connect to the torso from the back. I also prefer the shape of the shoulders on Isis and Freya. Those are softer & more rounded. Overall, it's a small point of irritation though.

Could be the rigging itself. If I remember right, Lara is rigged directly to the default SL skeleton, the others may not follow that rigging. I don't know for sure.

[Persephone Emerald]

36 minutes ago, skepwith said:

Ehhh, maybe, but the question doesn't really concern the conclusions we can or can't draw from data, so much as the motivations of clothing creators who also can't really draw a lot of conclusions from data. They're going to operate on similar kinds of "makes sense" assumptions.

I am going to venture to guess that most clothing creators probably think like this:

• Someone who has had the same body for years probably has a mostly sufficient wardrobe and only occasionally adds to it or does partial refreshes.
• Someone who buys a body that is new to them but has been on the market for some time
  • can choose from all the clothes that have been already made for that body and
  • might already have a number of items for that body if they had another body before, since items frequently come with sizes for multiple bodies.
• Someone who buys a body that has just been introduced and isn't compatible with anything has a completely empty wardrobe and a very limited set of options for filling it. Such a person is likely to be more of a big spender than the other two, since they're throwing a pretty good chuck of money into something that might fizzle and probably know that.

My basis for this is that the fairies told me, but anyway it seems like there's an incentive for clothing creators to get behind a new body if they think it's going to trend up for a while, whether it stays around or not, and decreasing incentive to stay behind a body the longer it's been out there even if it's still popular. I'd say there's even some incentive for a creator to help hype a new body that looks like it might go big anyway if they're a big enough name to make a difference.

The real magic is the hype chicken and egg, and spotting a trend early enough or even before it happens if you might be big enough to give it that needed push. None of that can even possibly be data driven, it's basically just Don Draper stuff.

I suspect creators are also motivated by how long it takes to rig clothes for mesh bodies, especially if a creator doesn't have other people doing the rigging for them. Events that feature clothing for the new body are probably going to generate good revenue if that creator makes clothing for the new body. People looking for Maitreya sizes will probably not be the big spenders there, so it makes sense to make clothing that's just for the newer bodies - at least for now. Once the hype dies down, the creator could add Maitreya sizes later - not not, depending on their preference.

Creators who know their customers want sizes for Maitreya or other specific bodies would be fools to not continue making those sizes.

[Rowan Amore]

22 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

It's most obvious when you look at where the arms connect to the torso from the back. I also prefer the shape of the shoulders on Isis and Freya. Those are softer & more rounded. Overall, it's a small point of irritation though.

My issue has been the shoulder blades and why I recently switched to Reborn.  Some strappy tops from well known and loved creators, clip into the shoulder blades depending on which stand I'm using.  The same top/stand with Reborn doesn't to that.  

[Cougar Sangria]

3 hours ago, skepwith said:

Ehhh, maybe, but the question doesn't really concern the conclusions we can or can't draw from data, so much as the motivations of clothing creators who also can't really draw a lot of conclusions from data. They're going to operate on similar kinds of "makes sense" assumptions.

I am going to venture to guess that most clothing creators probably think like this:

• Someone who has had the same body for years probably has a mostly sufficient wardrobe and only occasionally adds to it or does partial refreshes.

 

I will disagree to this observation.  I have worn Maitreya since January of 2015.  I have currated a closet to die for over the years.  I am still an avid shopper, and make the rounds of all the events and weekend sales.  I can assure you if it is a creator that I frequent, or even a new to me creator, and they release a new item and it is to my liking...IT's MINE.  Shopping is one of the fun things to do in SL and I know many others who are of the same mindset.  

Now to the creators who choose to not carry Maitreya sizes...They must do what they feel is in their best interest.  It all comes down to time and the mighty linden, dollar, pound, euro, yin, etc.  I can respect that.  But, in the process they have lost out on a loyal customer.  Not having the Maitreya size in their creations, even though I may love their creations, is not gonna make me run out and buy a meshbody they do create for. 

[skepwith]

4 minutes ago, Cougar Sangria said:

I will disagree to this observation.  I have worn Maitreya since January of 2015.  I have currated a closet to die for over the years.  I am still an avid shopper, and make the rounds of all the events and weekend sales.  I can assure you if it is a creator that I frequent, or even a new to me creator, and they release a new item and it is to my liking...IT's MINE.  Shopping is one of the fun things to do in SL and I know many others who are of the same mindset. 

I'm sure that's true, but I was referring to the broader generalizations that clothing creators seem likely to make. Even for a total Maitreya clothes horse, clothing purchases are a lot more discretionary than they are for someone who just bought a newly introduced TiddyGurl Deluxe or whatever and has literally nothing to wear. I'm sure it's part of some kind of cost/benefit gut-check, and perhaps the desire to make "fetch" happen. What if you could make this body that you've decided to take on support for seem special or exclusive? Would it be worth lost Maitreya customers? Maybe.

[Cougar Sangria]

8 minutes ago, skepwith said:

What if you could make this body that you've decided to take on support for seem special or exclusive? Would it be worth lost Maitreya customers? Maybe.

That is the choice the creator will have to make.  It could be a win for them or they could be slashing their own throat.  Who knows.

[Tazzie Tuque]

4 minutes ago, skepwith said:

What if you could make this body that you've decided to take on support for seem special or exclusive? Would it be worth lost Maitreya customers? Maybe.

Nope, I do not think so.  Although I am capable of making my own mesh clothing,  I chose not to; mainly because I do not have the time or patience to transfer my files to Blender from ZBrush just to get it rigged and uploaded in the correct .dae format.  I rather enjoy using pre made mesh templates,  I do not use the textures that might come with it, because I see the templates as a blank canvas upon which I can paint, and decorate, that is what I enjoy doing most.  I have been around SL for 16 years and I do have a pretty fair customer base.  I have one mesh template creator that I have bought from for ages, but lately she has stopped Freya.  Thankfully she still includes Maitreya.  I can tell you that if my customers do not see Maitreya in my store, they would certainly let me know about it in clear terms.  And I would lose sales for sure and maybe even loyal customers.  Not a risk I would want to take, just to indulge a possible fad or flash in the pan.

 

[Trinity Blakewell]

5 hours ago, Cougar Sangria said:

I will disagree to this observation.  I have worn Maitreya since January of 2015.  I have currated a closet to die for over the years.  I am still an avid shopper, and make the rounds of all the events and weekend sales.  I can assure you if it is a creator that I frequent, or even a new to me creator, and they release a new item and it is to my liking...IT's MINE.  Shopping is one of the fun things to do in SL and I know many others who are of the same mindset.  

Now to the creators who choose to not carry Maitreya sizes...They must do what they feel is in their best interest.  It all comes down to time and the mighty linden, dollar, pound, euro, yin, etc.  I can respect that.  But, in the process they have lost out on a loyal customer.  Not having the Maitreya size in their creations, even though I may love their creations, is not gonna make me run out and buy a meshbody they do create for. 

I wholeheartedly agree! I have worn Maitreya for several years (I wore Slink before that).  And I am still an avid shopper the same way you are. Not only that, but clothing technically has come a long way in a few years (at least the best of it). I wouldn't have my avi wearing most clothing from 5 years ago. As a  current consumer I want mesh detail, great textures that make use of materials, etc.

[Trinity Blakewell]

5 hours ago, skepwith said:

I'm sure that's true, but I was referring to the broader generalizations that clothing creators seem likely to make. Even for a total Maitreya clothes horse, clothing purchases are a lot more discretionary than they are for someone who just bought a newly introduced TiddyGurl Deluxe or whatever and has literally nothing to wear. 

Again, I think this is kind of a generalized presumption. Assuming that most people in SL have at least some kind of budget (which is its own presumption, I know, but given economic realities, I think it's a fair assumption to make).. The newbie that bought TiddyGurl Deluxe may not have a lot of Linden budget left for new clothing right now! She may be joining whatever groups are generous and offering gifts in her size, perusing the FabFree blog, etc.

[skepwith]

3 hours ago, Trinity1776 said:

Again, I think this is kind of a generalized presumption. Assuming that most people in SL have at least some kind of budget (which is its own presumption, I know, but given economic realities, I think it's a fair assumption to make).. The newbie that bought TiddyGurl Deluxe may not have a lot of Linden budget left for new clothing right now! She may be joining whatever groups are generous and offering gifts in her size, perusing the FabFree blog, etc.

Yes, it was my intention to state a presumption, specifically the kind that a clothing creator seems likely to have to make in the face of little actual data if the intention is to catch a trend before it takes off. This whole discussion is necessarily, and unfortunately, a battle of presumptions. But it's not about which ones are more likely to be true, it's about which ones clothing creators are more likely to make.

I would argue that one assumption clothing creators are likely to make about someone who has bought a very recently introduced body is that it's not likely to be a newbie, or at least not a penny pinching one. I think the assumption they'd make about newbies buying bodies is that they are more likely to buy what their friends have or recommend, or what they see around them, or what they see clothes being made for that they want to wear. The TiddyGurl Deluxe that just came out is probably none of those things, and so it's a risky purchase from the start.

I know anecdote isn't the singular of data, but if you'll entertain anecdotal evidence anyway, I can say that as a habitual attachment lister it's pretty consistent with what I see for the eBody Reborn. Regardless of account age, I don't think I've ever seen one without soft thighs, clothes and hair from higher end stores, HD head, and very often they have the "juicy boobs" add-on with compatible clothing, expensive adult attachments hidden away, and so forth. Decked out, in other words. Five figures, easily. And while that certainly doesn't prove anything, I do think that clothing creators are going to think similarly: People dropping thousands of lindens on newly introduced bodies are more likely to be big spenders.

Edited July 31, 2022 by skepwith
ok maybe not the FIRST assumption!

[MarketaKurkova]

On 7/29/2022 at 2:46 AM, steeljane42 said:

On a random note, as much as I dislike Legacy HUD, the horror stories about it are rather exaggerated. Web based part of it is needed for BoM activation (once) and the nails/toenails colors (was once for me too). Other 2 sections with alpha, feet shape etc work perfectly fine without media enabled (I always have it disabled pretty much) and doesn't require their server in any way (it did work when their server was down for maintenance a few times, I made sure to check). It's still a terrible design, I agree, but far less issue than people make it to be. Activate BoM/change nails color/polish, detach body, make a few backup copies just in case and done.

This is the case for me as well. I use the legacy body and aside from enabling BOM and picking nail colors for the first time, I only attach the HUD when I need to adjust feet poses. The few applier based clothing I use doesn't even need to go through the HUD except to enable or disable. 

[colleen Criss]

A designer explained things to me like this, so many bodies not enough time. I would agree with that. NO one sits and rigs 24/7. to do each body is time consuming. Maitreya still has a ton of things made for it.