Security orbs and navigable waters

[Tonya Souther]

I just bought a parcel in a bay connected to the Blake Sea. Spent a not inconsiderable amount of Lindens on it, too. Before buying, I checked carefully to ensure that we could sail to the Blake Sea from there.

Unfortunately, I did not realize there were landowners who think that navigable waters can and should be blocked. In boating around the area, I'm discovering a LOT of channels that are covered by security orbs with 20- or even 10-second timeouts. I can't even turn around in those channels, and 10 seconds isn't enough to get clear. This results in my getting TPd home, and then having to go back and pick up my boat: no small nuisance if I've sailed a fair distance away.

On top of that, one major landowner/landlord in the area has gone so far as to block the main channel that I was depending on to get out into the Blake Sea. "Oh, that's not for public use, just our guests." They put an invisible ship in the middle of the channel. It's possible to navigate around it...as long as your craft isn't too wide, and you don't need to tack. Otherwise, if you're traveling at any kind of speed (yes, even 5 knots), you collide with it, and are sent crashing into one of the neighbors' parcels.

I'm getting so disgusted with this that I'm considering selling the parcel and buying elsewhere. Or simply buying elsewhere, near this one landlord's properties, and putting up something really annoying (but within TOS, of course).

There's a landlord nearer to my parcel who has done the right thing: he's set up a strait in a separate parcel and dedicated it for open navigation. Any major landlord who controls access to any significant amount of water that he does not completely own should do the same.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Tonya Souther

[diamond Marchant]

As you have discovered, unless your parcel borders on Linden protected water, you can be blocked. There are many residents who make a point of keeping there water open to the public and some landlords set aside public water channels, but of course, this situation can change at any time (for example, after a land sale).

Most in the boating and flying community support the creation and enforcement of protected waters. Protected waters and airspace are of value to all residents.

[Tonya Souther]

I'm pleased to report that my situation, at least, has been resolved. The owner of the strait has agreed to open it up to use by all, along with the owner of an adjacent waterway that's needed to complete the path.

Diamond, you're right about access to protected waters...so now I've learned about that, and will look out myself should I be in the market again.

Now if we can just convince the Lindens to lower one particular sandbar...it's terraformed to a depth of slightly more than a meter, but the landowner (who's the guy who dedicated it to public access from the beginning) says that's as low as he can push it.

[belindacarson]

This has been discussed many times.

 

You have no right to roam on someone's land, zero time orbs are legal on mainland, landowners cab legally use ban lines.

 

Argument closed 🤣

[diamond Marchant]

1 hour ago, Tonya Souther said:

I'm pleased to report that my situation, at least, has been resolved.

So happy to hear it. It's wonderful to see people taking pleasure in contributing to our community.

[Tonya Souther]

59 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

This has been discussed many times.

 

You have no right to roam on someone's land, zero time orbs are legal on mainland, landowners cab legally use ban lines.

 

Argument closed 🤣

Did I claim that people had the right to roam on others' lands?

What I said is that someone who can control - as in end - access to major waterways from other parcels or regions should dedicate public accessways for all to use. Did I argue for trespassing? No. Did I suggest taking their land by mandate? No. But I do think they should do the right thing.

[xDancingStarx]

Not in regards of this case that luckily got solved but in general I hope that everyone who blocks trespassing for others thinks about it twice when they cross other people's lands. I will keep my land open even though I sometimes feel like being the stupid one when I run into a ban wall just 50m from my own parcels.

[Qie Niangao]

On 7/4/2022 at 5:34 PM, Tonya Souther said:

Now if we can just convince the Lindens to lower one particular sandbar...it's terraformed to a depth of slightly more than a meter, but the landowner (who's the guy who dedicated it to public access from the beginning) says that's as low as he can push it.

This usually doesn't get approved, although the landowner can ask with a support ticket. That "depth of slightly more than a meter" is pretty good evidence that this "waterway" was originally beach, with that particular stretch almost 3m above water level. Although right now the owner has it terraformed as water, the next owner may want that beach back where it was originally.

Occasionally a Linden (or Mole, maybe?) will override the region's terraforming limits on Governor Linden-owned land, but I'm not sure what would even happen if they did so on a private parcel; my hunch is that the next time some regular resident with terraforming ability touched the location, the land would revert to be within the old limits.

[Aethelwine]

On 7/4/2022 at 7:22 PM, Tonya Souther said:

On top of that, one major landowner/landlord in the area has gone so far as to block the main channel that I was depending on to get out into the Blake Sea. "Oh, that's not for public use, just our guests." They put an invisible ship in the middle of the channel. It's possible to navigate around it...as long as your craft isn't too wide, and you don't need to tack. Otherwise, if you're traveling at any kind of speed (yes, even 5 knots), you collide with it, and are sent crashing into one of the neighbors' parcels.

 

Relying on the goodwill of others whilst not extending that goodwill to your neighbours, is so obviously selfish, it should not need pointing out. But it sounds like it resolved itself.

If it is the area I am thinking of then I spoke with the landlord and their renter at the West end of the route because they blocked a cruise I planned and had spent hours and in the past spent a lot of money on land to help to create. The outcome was constructive at least for now. It is sad and I don't think a very clever system that we have to gamble on investments to open routes up like this. It should really be obvious to those buying the parcels they are paying a premium for them because the value of their land depends upon access, access that their neighbours collaborate to achieve. 

[Chike Nightingale]

On 7/5/2022 at 6:12 AM, belindacarson said:

This has been discussed many times.

 

You have no right to roam on someone's land, zero time orbs are legal on mainland, landowners cab legally use ban lines.

 

Argument closed 🤣

I did not know that zero time orbs were approved on mainland.

[belindacarson]

4 hours ago, Anthony Marques said:

I did not know that zero time orbs were approved on mainland.

They certainly are.

[Tonya Souther]

9 hours ago, Anthony Marques said:

I did not know that zero time orbs were approved on mainland.

Evidently they are. They most certainly should not be. If you want to keep people out like that, set up a ban line, ferchrissakes. At least that way you don't leave your vehicle behind when the thing throws you out.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

Except that if you use ban lines, people complain about THAT. 

(No, I don't use ban lines or zero time orbs. Just saying people will always complain.)

[Spooky Shadow]

Unless they find a way to keep boats on protected water while boating then ban lines and zero warning security orbs make sailing on the mainland effectively an impossibility. Ban lines are only visible when you are a few meters away making it nearly impossible to steer clear of them. 
Ban lines and zero warning orbs only disrupt our enjoyment of sailable protected waters. That is the truth.

[Coffee Pancake]

Cunning plan .. keep your vehicles on the actually protected public water ways and not on other people's parcels and you wont have a problem.

Most viewers will now show parcel lines on the mini map.

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

Cunning plan .. keep your vehicles on the actually protected public water ways and not on other people's parcels and you wont have a problem.

Most viewers will now show parcel lines on the mini map.

Are we bringing this up again? Lol

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Are we bringing this up again? Lol

Well that's what it boils down to.

How to get smashed by a ban line or a 0 second orb - try and drive your whatever on someone else's land. That's it. That's the only way.

All the talk of "protected" and "public access" is a smoke screen to hide that they are in fact, drivin though someone else's yard and that person may or may not be sympathetic. take your chances. good luck. ymmv. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Coffee Pancake

[Aethelwine]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Cunning plan .. keep your vehicles on the actually protected public water ways and not on other people's parcels and you wont have a problem.

Most viewers will now show parcel lines on the mini map.

Hardly useful advice in the context of this thread which is about landowners opening their land up to travel. There is no protected route across the top of nautilus the route that is there for last few years and continues to be there is down to the collaboration of around 12 landowners. 

The dismissive advice to just stick to protected waterways comes across fairly insulting and patronising to those involved. 

[Coffee Pancake]

41 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Hardly useful advice in the context of this thread which is about landowners opening their land up to travel. There is no protected route across the top of nautilus the route that is there for last few years and continues to be there is down to the collaboration of around 12 landowners. 

The dismissive advice to just stick to protected waterways comes across fairly insulting and patronising to those involved. 

No it really isn't patronizing. 

These discussions always come back to there being some kind of entitlement to access that just doesn't exist. If someone buys land and blocks your route, well that's their choice to make and they don't deserve to be bullied, harassed or cajoled into complying with your interests.

The entire premise of this thread is the OP is frustrated that some people don't want others passing through, even going as far as to suggest spiteful retribution.

If you can sail, that's a blessing. If you can't .. that's just too bad.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Coffee Pancake

[diamond Marchant]

A few thoughts...

1. Second Life annoys us in different ways, depending on our interests. We each decide which hill to die on. My hill is continental connectivity of PROTECTED water.

2. Each vehicle class (watercraft, on road vehicles, off road vehicles, trains, aircraft, animals) has it's own issues. I speculate that watercraft issues dominate.

 3. The "way things are" was most likely not designed a priori. They seem to be making it up as they go. It is evident to me that Bellisseria was a product of learning from the prior mess.

4. I speculate that connectivity of vehicular pathways is subject to the network effect in that our virtual world becomes more valuable with increasing connectivity.

5. Many residents delight in having others cross their parcels in vehicles. Others do not. That is the the SL way.

[Katherine Heartsong]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

No it really isn't patronizing. 

These discussions always come back to there being some kind of entitlement to access that just doesn't exist. If someone buys land and blocks your route, well that's their choice to make and they don't deserve to be bullied, harassed or cajoled into complying with your interests.

The entire premise of this thread is the OP is frustrated that some people don't want others passing through, even going as far as to suggest spiteful retribution.

If you can sail, that's a blessing. If you can't .. that's just too bad.

100% this. If you buy land that looks like it's open to sailing water you had better TP there, and fly in every direction and path possible to ensure the water you're seeing is open. Right click on the land and check who the owners are, is it Linden or a private individual. Every step of the way. And if you're happy, buy the land knowing that at any point in the future unlerss you're right on the coast itself, someone can come along and block your access to that open water.

And that's their right. It's sometimes silly and unnecessary, especially when the leave their land as open water and it looks accessible, but that's their right. You do not have any right to access another person's property in SL, the same way you don't in RL. Exactly as Coffee keeps saying, and to the entire premise of the thread, but so many can't accept she's right.

"These discussions always come back to there being some kind of entitlement to access that just doesn't exist. If someone buys land and blocks your route, well that's their choice to make and they don't deserve to be bullied, harassed or cajoled into complying with your interests."

That red part especially.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Katherine Heartsong

[Sammy Huntsman]

3 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

100% this. If you buy land that looks like it's open to sailing water you had better TP there, and fly in every direction and path possible to ensure the water you're seeing is open. Right click on the land and check who the owners are, is it Linden or a private individual. Every step of the way. And if you're happy, buy the land knowing that at any point in the future unlerss you're right on the coast itself, someone can come along and block your access to that open water.

And that's their right. It's sometimes silly and unnecessary, especially when the leave their land as open water and it looks accessible, but that's their right. You do not have any right to access another person's property in SL, the same way you don't in RL. Exactly as Coffee keeps saying, and to the entire premise of the thread, but so many can't accept she's right.

"These discussions always come back to there being some kind of entitlement to access that just doesn't exist. If someone buys land and blocks your route, well that's their choice to make and they don't deserve to be bullied, harassed or cajoled into complying with your interests."

That red part especially.

I actually have a method to combat this, if you have an orb up. And this is entirely your choice, this is me not forcing you to do it. But have it set a meter around your immediate house and a meter above your house. So then they can trample on your lawn all they want and go boating all they want. But if they come anywhere close to the perimeter. It boots them straight home. 

[Aethelwine]

6 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

No it really isn't patronizing. 

These discussions always come back to there being some kind of entitlement to access that just doesn't exist. If someone buys land and blocks your route, well that's their choice to make and they don't deserve to be bullied, harassed or cajoled into complying with your interests.

The entire premise of this thread is the OP is frustrated that some people don't want others passing through, even going as far as to suggest spiteful retribution.

If you can sail, that's a blessing. If you can't .. that's just too bad.

I don't see any of that and in fact the person that had blocked the route apologised when it was pointed out. No one needed to be cajoled or bullied. 

The only way to use the water there is through cooperation. That is how it is set up and why that dynamic exists. 

 

[Aethelwine]

5 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

100% this. If you buy land that looks like it's open to sailing water you had better TP there, and fly in every direction and path possible to ensure the water you're seeing is open. Right click on the land and check who the owners are, is it Linden or a private individual. Every step of the way. And if you're happy, buy the land knowing that at any point in the future unlerss you're right on the coast itself, someone can come along and block your access to that open water.

And that's their right. It's sometimes silly and unnecessary, especially when the leave their land as open water and it looks accessible, but that's their right. You do not have any right to access another person's property in SL, the same way you don't in RL. Exactly as Coffee keeps saying, and to the entire premise of the thread, but so many can't accept she's right.

"These discussions always come back to there being some kind of entitlement to access that just doesn't exist. If someone buys land and blocks your route, well that's their choice to make and they don't deserve to be bullied, harassed or cajoled into complying with your interests."

That red part especially.

But neither can they complain if they find the access they depend upon being blocked reciprocally by their neighbours. 

People don't own land in isolation on mainland, actions have consequences. 

[Coffee Pancake]

 

3 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

I don't see any of that and in fact the person that had blocked the route apologised when it was pointed out. No one needed to be cajoled or bullied. 

 

On 7/4/2022 at 2:22 PM, Tonya Souther said:

I'm getting so disgusted with this that I'm considering selling the parcel and buying elsewhere. Or simply buying elsewhere, near this one landlord's properties, and putting up something really annoying (but within TOS, of course).

I've been in SL since 06.

I used to have a large store on mainland that would routinely end up with vehicles glitched inside because it was on a "flight path" near a region border.

You know what routinely happened when someone managed to glitch a plane into the building? They would vent their frustration by trying to fly around inside and running over shoppers. I got threats, grif attempts, demands that I delete my store and/or myself.

I've had water front land and because someone else decided to build a boat house on their patch of water (the nerve!) people would divert through my land,  for every nice person who would ask me to change the usage of my land to better accommodate their sailing though it, there would be someone else getting aggressive ... usually after auto-return would send their abandoned boat back from my living room .. that only got there because they drove onto my land, did a 90 and then floored it into the house and walked away.

It's been my genuine experience interacting with SL vehicle community that there is always the implicit threat .. and here we are, in a thread ranting on the forums to garner mob support for an entitled angry demand that water be navigable, just because it's there.