New Firestorm Version: March 2022

[arabellajones]

The new version of Firestorm is out, caught up with the official viewer and with the usual plethora of other options. But there is a looming change, next version, which may be a problem. I am not 100% sure, but the Starlight skins will be removed if nobody takes on the support work, and they seem to be the only skins that give dark text on a light background.

This was rare in the past, but has become fashionable in the past few years. It is getting very common on smartphones and tablets, but it is presented as a choice for use in darker environments. That choice makes sense, but research published in 2018 and later reveals it needs to be a choice. Some people it helps, some it doesn't.

Report on the effects of Dark Mode in Wired

The source is Professor Susanne Mayr at the University of Passau.

Let me be clear, a lot of the Starlight Skin changes are other than colour choices. The buttons are different shapes, some things are arranged differently. I don't need full Starlight, but if Linden Lab and other viewer teams can't make Dark Mode a choice I may have problems. If I have missed the skin choice or setting, Firestorm or any other viewer, which gives me the choice, you can blame me, but I am already grumpy enough about the quality of documentation. "Try the Starlight skin" is not a useful answer.

[Fritigern Gothly]

I use the Ansastorm skin myself which is nice and dark and calm to my eyes.
Perhaps have a look at that and keep it in mind as an emergency solution in case Starlight gets removed?

[arabellajones]

So far, the best I have found in Firestorm is the "Vintage Classic" Skin, which seems to be closer to the original Viewer 1 choices. I still get some windows which use white text on very pale grey backgrounds. The skin is not the full high-fashion Dark Mode. It's not so very different to the choices used in Henri Beaumont's Cool VL Viewer.

I am left with a feeling that nobody on the team bothered to check. White text on very pale grey seems such an obvious bad choice, whatever the overall nature of the skin.

[VictoriaGrwd]

Still no tilt option on the camera like Black Dragon has.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 hours ago, VictoriaGrwd said:

Still no tilt option on the camera like Black Dragon has.

Victoria, I don't know if you are being deliberately cheeky or not here, but I wanted to let you know that my "laugh" response was intended to be with, and not at you.

You're a very accomplished photographer, and I admire your work a great deal. And anything that goes into the viewers that assists you in carrying that forward is a good thing, so far as I am concerned. 🙂

[LittleMe Jewell]

9 hours ago, VictoriaGrwd said:

Still no tilt option on the camera like Black Dragon has.

Many of the various photo editing software apps out there will aid you in tilting a photo.

[LittleMe Jewell]

Damn - I just logged in and checked.  Sure enough, I am currently using one of the StarLight skins.   Guess I'll have to spend some time finding another option that suits me.

Edited March 23, 2022 by LittleMe Jewell

[arabellajones]

I am feeling grumpy about the Firestorm teams reactions, elsewhere. Because it is described as "experimental" they don't seem to care about problem reports.

Let's be clear: there are new tools in Firestorm to "Improve Graphics Speed...", and they're described as "experimental". I suppose that means they might vanish in the next release, or be changed enormously. But if they can't use an existing skin's colour system, can't usefully use the way text and button background colours are defined, they have a deeper problem.

It's not just that light texts on dark backgrounds are difficult for about half the population, because of vision defects such as astigmatism (and I gave you citations for that), it's that this Dark Mode can be useful, some of the time for some people, but it's being treated as a universal. And, instead of a fashionable option, we lose the choice.

Fashion shouldn't be forced. And since nobody else can see out screens, these fashion-driven UI choices feel a bit pointless.

[panterapolnocy]

4 hours ago, arabellajones said:

Because it is described as "experimental" they don't seem to care about problem reports.

4 hours ago, arabellajones said:

they're described as "experimental". I suppose that means they might (...) be changed enormously.

There will be some changes because Firestorm team does care about problem reports. Maybe just not enormous, but who knows.

4 hours ago, arabellajones said:

But if they can't use an existing skin's colour system, can't usefully use the way text and button background colours are defined, they have a deeper problem.

Changing hex values is not a big deal (but takes time and a lot of testing regardless), but the team thought about retiring this set of skins, and was trying to patch/save it at the same time, for a far longer amount of time - it's not a decision that was taken over one single night. Everything has its limits... StarLight skins have more problems than just a different colour scheme - like compatibility issues with the main skin, that usually emerge after every bigger code merge - and there is no dedicated person in the team to track or fix them. They're structurally different enough from the main skin that you just cannot copy and paste some solutions, you need to create dedicated code just for StarLight skins. An alternative may eventually emerge, however, as... the Vintage skin is still maintained by the team. See https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-31478 - note that no comment has been made on this suggestion for now. No decisions, no dates.

That said, if anyone would like to pick the gauntlet and continue to maintain StarLight skins (as indefinitely as possible) - he or she is more than welcomed to do so. If no one will - FS will lose StarLight and StarLight CUI.

4 hours ago, arabellajones said:

Fashion shouldn't be forced.

This is not about forcing fashion on anyone, but about technical difficulties. Does anyone complain that an old operating system is not getting any official updates, drivers or upgrades anymore? No, because human resources were shifted to newer solutions and the first thing you get after contacting a helpline is "please update your OS". You'd get that reaction even with Linux if you'd like to get help while using an ancient kernel that no one has time and energy to patch anymore.

Edited March 25, 2022 by panterapolnocy

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 hours ago, panterapolnocy said:

See https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-31478 - note that no comment has been made on this suggestion for now.

Thanks for this link.  I hadn't yet gotten around to searching the Jira after hearing about Starlight going away.  I added my vote and a comment.

[arabellajones]

While the Starlight skins are the really obvious exception to the prevalent Dark Mode fashion, I am trying to step aside from that aspect.

The problem I am having is with the colours used, and as the multiple Starlight versions demonstrate, Starlight itself isn't the problem

Run your copy of Firestorm, log-in, and open your Preferences window, choose Skins.

You don't need to change your Skin, don't worry.

Now pick the Starlight skin and compare what is shown for these two subsidiary colour schemes:

          Nostalgia Blue

          Silver Blue

I have been looking through the other skins and their colour schemes and not found anything close to that Silver Blue colour scheme, nothing with the same general light/dark difference outside the Starlight family, and the Starlight family lets a user choose.

A similarly light skin in the Firestorm group would also be a useful basic test.

 

 

[Ansariel Hiller]

Well... Maybe it's time to step up and volunteer for the open position as Starlight skin maintainer? It's not that you have to start from scratch - the Starlight skins are still there as base to start with. I had to fix those skins or try to add new features from the LL viewer for the majority of the last decade when merging LL's code - I am just tired of doing that and won't do it any longer. Since the Hitomi Tiponi, the inventor of the Starlight skins, basically vanished and if nobody else will take over, then Starlight skins will be going. Easy as that - well... except if you want to continue using unmaintained skins that may lack features or even cause the viewer to crash in the worst case. What's certainly not going to happen is that I am going to put any more work into them.

[LittleMe Jewell]

I completely understand not wanting to maintain something that someone else created, is not totally necessary, and takes many hours of work to keep it functioning.  

I'm just hoping that the Jira mentioned above gets accepted and worked on so that we have at least one light colored setup.  If I had a clue about skins and how they work, I might consider looking in to it, but that is far from my IT specialty.

[NiranV Dean]

Well this is the very reason i've kept BD to a single skin, just a single skin can be a tremendous amount of work, having multiple (if they aren't just recolors) can multiply this amount of work especially when they require extra code to function due to their fundamentally different functionality. I've always wanted to do extra skins but i'd be limited to color changes only unless i want to double my work. Now add localization to this whole fun and RIP. I wish LL wouldn't constantly finger the UI like crazy when theres hardly any need to, instead of one massive sweep to overhaul the UI.

[Nalates Urriah]

On 3/23/2022 at 4:19 AM, VictoriaGrwd said:

Still no tilt option on the camera like Black Dragon has.

I don't miss in viewer tilt. I take hi-rez images and crop and tilt in an image editor.

On 3/25/2022 at 2:10 AM, arabellajones said:

I am feeling grumpy about the Firestorm teams reactions, elsewhere. Because it is described as "experimental" they don't seem to care about problem reports.

Let's be clear: there are new tools in Firestorm to "Improve Graphics Speed...", and they're described as "experimental". I suppose that means they might vanish in the next release, or be changed enormously. But if they can't use an existing skin's colour system, can't usefully use the way text and button background colours are defined, they have a deeper problem.

It's not just that light texts on dark backgrounds are difficult for about half the population, because of vision defects such as astigmatism (and I gave you citations for that), it's that this Dark Mode can be useful, some of the time for some people, but it's being treated as a universal. And, instead of a fashionable option, we lose the choice.

Fashion shouldn't be forced. And since nobody else can see out screens, these fashion-driven UI choices feel a bit pointless.

Grumpy? Yeah. You sound totally spoiled. Brat. 😝

I understand losing the Starlight skin would make you grumpy. We all handle loss poorly. But Firestorm is an open source project made by volunteers. I am thankful for whatever they give me. I'll morn my loss without hassling  @Ansariel Hiller or other team members.

The thing with open source is that if you don't like something, YOU can change it. The Communist/Socialist idea of making someone do it for you doesn't work in the community. So, if I were to ask anything of the team it would be to remind me where all the support info is for those that want to make viewer-skins.  ...and that's pushing it since I CAN LOOK IT UP.

 

[belindacarson]

Let's be clear on one thing, shall we? the firestorm devs are doing this for FREE like niranv does.

 

If you don't like the product, don't use it.  Personally I'd have thought it was simple choice instead of posting a thread whining about the work that these people do for FREE.

 

NOBODY says you have to use Firestorm, go use that clunky thing called the "official viewer".

[arabellajones]

I am not sure of the reading ability of some of those who have responded to my initial comment. I set out a very general user interface problem,  with a citation. About half the population have an eyesight defect, astigmatism, which interacts badly with the popular Dark Mode colour schemes. They are an almost universal option for smartphones and tablets, but remain an option. In some environments they work well, they have a purpose but they are not universal.

On Firestorm I used the Starlight skin, which has the only colour scheme not in Dark Mode territory. I hadn't realised how the needed support had collapsed. It's something that Firestorm users can still look at to see for themselves how big a difference the colours make.

I'm willing to accept the loss of Starlight skins, but it will make Firestorm an entirely Dark Mode viewer.

If you like Dark Mode, that's OK, I only want it to be an option, part of a set of adjustments you can make to get the best out of your hardware.

If you are saying it's open source and I can fix it for myself, you are making a big assumption about my skills. And if you dismiss my observations on those grounds, I do have words to describe you which go beyond mere fool, but I choose not to use them.

I have been looking though the Firestorm skins, and I have found a couple of borderline Dark Mode, but they're not that much better. I have checked my monitor settings and how it interacts with room lighting. I know how the brightest and darkest colours in textures need to leave room for the effects generated by the ALM.

You might have something useful to add, such a viewer that has avoided the Dark Mode trap, but on what I see so far, responses have already dropped into "...a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." How do you want to look?

[panterapolnocy]

44 minutes ago, arabellajones said:

If you like Dark Mode, that's OK, I only want it to be an option

Firestorm viewer does not have a dark mode option. Firestorm viewer has a set of skins. And the team is going to drop two of them if a new person that is willing to take care of them will not emerge. It is unfortunate that these problematic skins are the only ones that are the brighter ones, but this is the only way for the developers to stay sane. There is no fashion being pushed on anyone, no freedoms being taken. No politics being involved, not a conspiracy or a hidden agenda, no trends being applied. There is development time and resources being focused on different aspects of the viewer.

48 minutes ago, arabellajones said:

If you are saying it's open source and I can fix it for myself, you are making a big assumption about my skills.

I don't know if your OS has it, but Windows 10 and Windows 11 do support colour filters as an accessibility option, including "invert".

1 hour ago, arabellajones said:

About half the population have an eyesight defect, astigmatism, which interacts badly with the popular Dark Mode colour schemes.

I do have rather severe vision issues myself, which I'd rather not disclose here (but astigmatism is part of them), but when I wear my glasses I see everything mostly fine - dark letters on bright background or bright ones on the dark one like in Firestorm Gray skin - doesn't matter. I also keep proper lighting conditions in my room and do not stare at the screen for a few hours in a row. If in need I enlarge the font size in the viewer. I know my limitations. When my glasses were out of order once I didn't use my computer and just took a walk in the park instead.

Again: I am aware that you'd like a light theme to stay in the viewer. Noted, understood. Answer: Right now it is not possible. Maybe it will be. Depends on the community. This is the fact. Posting a fourth post about mostly the same thing, a "dark mode as an option", won't help here. If you want to provide some help, then the best way to do that would be to learn how to modify viewer files (no one was born with these skills) and provide a new light scheme for any of the existing skins. Or to take care of StarLight skins, as a whole.

[arabellajones]

19 hours ago, panterapolnocy said:

I don't know if your OS has it, but Windows 10 and Windows 11 do support colour filters as an accessibility option, including "invert".

My OS does does have a method of identifying a window and inverting that window. This is the result for me.

It is possible to set up this color-inversion to be more selective, using more specific sub-window labels, but that depends on a properly defined WM_CLASS label so the different sorts of compositing call can be distinguished.

This doesn't look like a useful solution, so Firestorm is likely to remain a de facto Dark Mode viewer.

[Gwin LeShelle]

So..no more Silver Pink skin? T^T

[Lucia Nightfire]

2 less skins means Firestorm will install/uninstall quicker, shaving 30 seconds off of the 4 minutes it typically takes.

If we could just select what skins to include at install, that would be sweet. 🙏

[Ansariel Hiller]

1 hour ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

If we could just select what skins to include at install, that would be sweet. 🙏

Less options would be even sweeter! 😎

[Coffee Pancake]

6 hours ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

Less options would be even sweeter! 😎

Every checkbox comes with hundreds of screaming users who can't possibly live without the ability to set or unset that particular option.

 

[arabellajones]

Since this thread is still popping up in Google searches, I figure I should link to an answer to the Dark Mode problem that I described. It is a working answer.

For me it is a huge improvement over the commonplace light text on a dark background. Why no other set of skins includes such a choice still bewilders me.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_Skins/Starlight