Micro Parcels - Are they allowed?

[Feorie Frimon]

16 sqm that is on sale for $5k. Yikes! Right in the middle of a field of abanoned land.

Is this something that I can file an AR request for? 

Screenshot: https://gyazo.com/e3c44af115028cecb1ee5ea6f0f4d66d

[Chic Aeon]

It could be SO MUCH WORSE!     Welcome to mainland.  Derender and blocklist it (3rd party viewers) and try and forget it it there.  Happily there is much less of this going on than in the past. To my knowledge this is completely "legal".    

[Maitimo]

6 hours ago, Feorie Frimon said:

16 sqm that is on sale for $5k. Yikes! Right in the middle of a field of abanoned land.

Is this something that I can file an AR request for? 

Screenshot: https://gyazo.com/e3c44af115028cecb1ee5ea6f0f4d66d

This is a grey area. It would certainly not be allowed if it had an ad on it (though you could argue that the flags are a political ad), and it would not be allowed if the surrounding land was owned by someone. It certainly looks like price-gouging to me, though a useless attempt at it, given that the surrounding land is abandoned. My guess is it was done to pressure the previous owner, who solved the problem by abandoning and going elsewhere, and the 16m parcel hasn't been changed since then.

I would suggest submitting an AR anyway, and let the Lab sort it out. In the meantime you can derender the flags, but sadly you can't derender the hill.

 

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

10 hours ago, Feorie Frimon said:

16 sqm that is on sale for $5k. Yikes! Right in the middle of a field of abanoned land.

Is this something that I can file an AR request for? 

Screenshot: https://gyazo.com/e3c44af115028cecb1ee5ea6f0f4d66d

I'd probably try submitting a support ticket to the land team to see if there's anything they can do. Check out this thread from a year ago for some interesting (and infuriating) discussion: 

In the thread, Patch directs people to the wiki entry regarding land-cutting: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Mainland_policies#Policy_Prohibiting_Land-Cutting . You can see that it says:

Quote

In general residents are welcome to subdivide larger parcels of land that they occupy into smaller parcels. Subdivision is considered "land cutting" when a resident extensively subdivides land into smaller parcels for the purpose of further "renting" or "selling" those parcels — and it is not allowed. Other prohibited land cutting includes subdividing land in a manner that decreases the ability of other residents to enjoy their land, collaborate and/or exercise land-management controls, or in a way that constitutes harassment of another resident. Linden reserves the right to make parcel alternations as necessary to ensure residents’ enjoyment of Second Life. We want to keep Second Life beautiful too.

We therefore may, in our sole discretion, move any parcel of land that is smaller than or equal to 128 sqm where such land is interfering with the enjoyment of a significantly larger parcel of land or region.

So, I'd quote that in my support ticket and then cross my fingers, but I'd also keep looking for other land to buy instead. 

One more thought: If you are buying a large amount of abandoned land there, you could rationalize paying the L$5,000 to the extortionist since you are getting such a deal on the rest of it. However, I don't really like to support that kind of behavior, and I'm betting that you don't, either. 

[Feorie Frimon]

1 hour ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

I'd probably try submitting a support ticket to the land team to see if there's anything they can do. Check out this thread from a year ago for some interesting (and infuriating) discussion: 

In the thread, Patch directs people to the wiki entry regarding land-cutting: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Mainland_policies#Policy_Prohibiting_Land-Cutting . You can see that it says:

So, I'd quote that in my support ticket and then cross my fingers, but I'd also keep looking for other land to buy instead. 

One more thought: If you are buying a large amount of abandoned land there, you could rationalize paying the L$5,000 to the extortionist since you are getting such a deal on the rest of it. However, I don't really like to support that kind of behavior, and I'm betting that you don't, either. 

So I actually own 8,192 of a giant mountain that overlooks that valley. When I buy a part of a region like this, I try to make the land not only useable but work with whatever everyone around me is building. I noticed this in the valley as I was taking in the view, and since it was in the same region as me I thought - maybe I can help out the other people in Lota by working on trying to get that solved for them.
 

Maybe someone would claim the land if that wasn’t there? I may offer to buy the abandoned land and rehab it via a ticket… but only if that micro parcel is gone. I know the price could be worse, but $4k for 16 sqm is extortion -and ‘ain’t nobody got time for that’. 
 

I’ll use the quote from Patch and see what they say! 

[Qie Niangao]

Exactly once, I was successful in offering a reasonable price to a microparcel owner who'd set a roadside parcel for sale at an astronomical price. They'd used it to advertise a venue, not violating the advertising rules (all phantom, attached to the ground and extending no higher than 8m above ground level, no particles, etc).

I doubt it would work in this case, but then I never expected it to work when it did, either.

[Feorie Frimon]

7 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Exactly once, I was successful in offering a reasonable price to a microparcel owner who'd set a roadside parcel for sale at an astronomical price. They'd used it to advertise a venue, not violating the advertising rules (all phantom, attached to the ground and extending no higher than 8m above ground level, no particles, etc).

I doubt it would work in this case, but then I never expected it to work when it did, either.

I doubt it too - his profile makes it pretty clear what his enterprise is about. 

[Elena Blossom]

Look at the teen grid. There are 16sqm parcels everywhere with some obelisks; I've seen the group getting land, cutting a mini parcel to place them and then sell the rest.

I used to love that continent, but that ruined it for me. I've seen large extensions of land appear now as 'repair' and are owned by Guy Linden, so I hope they plan on doing something about it

[Alwin Alcott]

Policy Prohibiting Land-Cutting

In general residents are welcome to subdivide larger parcels of land that they occupy into smaller parcels. Subdivision is considered "land cutting" when a resident extensively subdivides land into smaller parcels for the purpose of further "renting" or "selling" those parcels — and it is not allowed. Other prohibited land cutting includes subdividing land in a manner that decreases the ability of other residents to enjoy their land, collaborate and/or exercise land-management controls, or in a way that constitutes harassment of another resident. Linden reserves the right to make parcel alternations as necessary to ensure residents’ enjoyment of Second Life. We want to keep Second Life beautiful too.

We therefore may, in our sole discretion, move any parcel of land that is smaller than or equal to 128 sqm where such land is interfering with the enjoyment of a significantly larger parcel of land or region.



Linden Lab Official:Mainland policies - Second Life Wiki

[animats]

There used to be a thing for 4x4m parcels as bases for giant billboards along roads. The Circuit de Corse in Corsica, which is a popular drive, used to have several. I haven't seen those in a while. I ARd one of them years ago, and probably other people ARd the rest of them. As ads, they weren't working anyway. About half of them were "rent this billboard".

There are still some little brightly colored ad things on 4x4 parcels. Some say "Taxi" on top, so maybe they have teleport links. Never clicked on one. Ugly, but harmless.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

14 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

Policy Prohibiting Land-Cutting

In general residents are welcome to subdivide larger parcels of land that they occupy into smaller parcels. Subdivision is considered "land cutting" when a resident extensively subdivides land into smaller parcels for the purpose of further "renting" or "selling" those parcels — and it is not allowed. Other prohibited land cutting includes subdividing land in a manner that decreases the ability of other residents to enjoy their land, collaborate and/or exercise land-management controls, or in a way that constitutes harassment of another resident. Linden reserves the right to make parcel alternations as necessary to ensure residents’ enjoyment of Second Life. We want to keep Second Life beautiful too.

We therefore may, in our sole discretion, move any parcel of land that is smaller than or equal to 128 sqm where such land is interfering with the enjoyment of a significantly larger parcel of land or region.



Linden Lab Official:Mainland policies - Second Life Wiki

I think this is the exact same section I posted above?

[Feorie Frimon]

15 hours ago, Elena Core said:

Look at the teen grid. There are 16sqm parcels everywhere with some obelisks; I've seen the group getting land, cutting a mini parcel to place them and then sell the rest.

I used to love that continent, but that ruined it for me. I've seen large extensions of land appear now as 'repair' and are owned by Guy Linden, so I hope they plan on doing something about it

I actually just interview someone a few days ago that is working on helping with that problem on Sharpe too. I had no idea - Sharpe is my fave continent so that is a real shame to hear. I hope they crack down over there. 

[Mollymews]

16 hours ago, Elena Core said:

Look at the teen grid. There are 16sqm parcels everywhere with some obelisks

some history on the inworld game which these current obelisks represent is here: https://secondlife.fandom.com/wiki/Army_of_the_Sith_Republic#:~:text=ASR%2C Army of the SIth Republic or now,new resident of the TG back in 2007.

in those days a older version of the obelisks were on pretty much every region on the TG/Sharp.  The early versions were like "stargates", were scripted to be spawn points for the Sith Army game players to jump to when chasing/combatting other players.  Then they started to disappear from the grid as the players drifted away and stopped paying the tiers

seems most likely that some person who used to play that game has come back and is trying to memorialise their youth years which is what these new obelisks say: That they are memorials.  As these new obelisks are not scripted, they don't serve the same function as they did

another thing.  I won't name the region on Sharp, but a couple of years ago, a new Army of the Sith Republic base was built. Was quite incongruous in the then setting as all the then neighbours had home and garden parcels.  Then after a few months the base was abandoned (not sure exactly why but could make a good guess) and the obelisks starting appearing all over

Edited February 9, 2022 by Mollymews
d

[Mollymews]

On 2/8/2022 at 3:50 AM, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

 

 

this orange 4096 parcel is the classic definition of a donut parcel.  Anyone buying the 4096m could submit a ticket to have the donut hole 16m parcel moved to the edge. Next to the green parcel would most likely be where Land Linden would move it too

[Mollymews]

just about landcutting to get microparcels

Linden could make it so that only Land Linden can set parcels less than 512 sqm for sale. Owner can only abandon

 

ps edit add for complete. The above rule would not in itself prevent landcutting to secure micro parcels. As a person could buy a 528m+. Cut out the micro parcel and sell/abandon  the 512m+ keeping the microparcel

so would need a 2nd rule as well to work in-conjunction with rule 1.  Cannot sell/abandon a parcel if this would leave you with less than 512m on the region

Edited February 10, 2022 by Mollymews

[Elena Blossom]

8 hours ago, Feorie Frimon said:

I actually just interview someone a few days ago that is working on helping with that problem on Sharpe too. I had no idea - Sharpe is my fave continent so that is a real shame to hear. I hope they crack down over there. 

I love it too. I had a home there that was dear to me and I have considered going back quite often. But when you realise these obelisk are absolutely everywhere, in the middle of lovely parcels, you move on. 

[Elena Blossom]

7 hours ago, Mollymews said:

some history on the inworld game which these current obelisks represent is here: https://secondlife.fandom.com/wiki/Army_of_the_Sith_Republic#:~:text=ASR%2C Army of the SIth Republic or now,new resident of the TG back in 2007.

in those days a older version of the obelisks were on pretty much every region on the TG/Sharp.  The early versions were like "stargates", were scripted to be spawn points for the Sith Army game players to jump to when chasing/combatting other players.  Then they started to disappear from the grid as the players drifted away and stopped paying the tiers

seems most likely that some person who used to play that game has come back and is trying to memorialise their youth years which is what these new obelisks say: That they are memorials.  As these new obelisks are not scripted, they don't serve the same function as they did

another thing.  I won't name the region on Sharp, but a couple of years ago, a new Army of the Sith Republic base was built. Was quite incongruous in the then setting as all the then neighbours had home and garden parcels.  Then after a few months the base was abandoned (not sure exactly why but could make a good guess) and the obelisks starting appearing all over

Thank you for all the info Molly

Scripted or non scripted, I don't think it is fair using a whole continent as your playground, since you are impacting other residents.

[Feorie Frimon]

7 hours ago, Elena Core said:

Thank you for all the info Molly

Scripted or non scripted, I don't think it is fair using a whole continent as your playground, since you are impacting other residents.

I agree with her here. I did an Interview with a guy that talked extensively about the teen grid and what those are. 
A memorial is nice - 200 ‘memorials’ is more like spam. 

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, Feorie Frimon said:

A memorial is nice - 200 ‘memorials’ is more like spam. 

i would not disagree with this

this kind of behaviour I think works against Linden's best interest - use of micro-parcels that discourage other residents from paying tier to maintain that region

 

add: if mircoparcels were to used as spawn portals for a grid-wide game then they don't have to be giant obelisks. They can be a flat floor prim - able to serve the function and not annoy the neighbours

Edited February 10, 2022 by Mollymews

[Prokofy Neva]

On 2/7/2022 at 11:03 AM, Feorie Frimon said:

So I actually own 8,192 of a giant mountain that overlooks that valley. When I buy a part of a region like this, I try to make the land not only useable but work with whatever everyone around me is building. I noticed this in the valley as I was taking in the view, and since it was in the same region as me I thought - maybe I can help out the other people in Lota by working on trying to get that solved for them.
 

Maybe someone would claim the land if that wasn’t there? I may offer to buy the abandoned land and rehab it via a ticket… but only if that micro parcel is gone. I know the price could be worse, but $4k for 16 sqm is extortion -and ‘ain’t nobody got time for that’. 
 

I’ll use the quote from Patch and see what they say! 

This is one of the constant themes of the MonCierge meetings -- join the throng. If there is only one extortionist parcel per sim, or two, it seems then there is no action, despite the extortion. You can see this all over the former Campbell Coast now with utter crazy prices on small and medium land parcels, particularly to block the Circuit le Course access. But it doesn't "fit" the definition somehow, despite multiple parcels per sim.

You can only try -- and try again -- and get a group to try -- but likely it won't work. The Lindens should simply cease allowing land for sale below a reasonable amount, let's say 128? 256? It will be impossible to set such land to sale. There really is no use case for it. If it is abandoned, you buy it from the Lindens. Or conversely, if land that small is set to sale, it can't have anything on it like a spinning sign (much harder to code or manually police). More and more I see auctions that are raised up above the level of the extortionist microparcels so that an auction buyer may not see them. The Lindens need to crack down more on ad cutting and issue more warnings and disciplinary actions as it is flourishing as much as it did before their policy was finally instituted years ago (which took four years of us lobbying Jack Linden!)

And it's not just land for sale that is a problem.

Timo has lists of dozens of microparcels that the Lindens just will not move on despite multiple ARs. They are clearly made to annoy and not even put for sale, but have obelisks on them -- but that devalues land and then forces it into abandonment -- which enables land barons to take it over, chop it up, and sell it for cheap, usually to other land farmers.

I have lists of the ugly "Good Neighbours" kiosk deployed in bad faith -- in fact to help ad farming even if technically not for sale or with ads on it. Because again, people abandon around it, that land is requested by barons and chopped up, and becomes ad farms. 

It's all part of the awful "ecology" of the Mainland microparcel landscape that the Lindens simply refuse to move on -- because the microparcels in question don't have land for sale and can't be proven to fit that rather vaguely-worded definition invoked by Patch -- which could, in fact, be applied to these situations, but isn't -- the Lindens likely pragmatically weigh what they get in tier from land barons with these bad practices, and what they get from small rentals businesses or end users in tier, and they do the math and ignore the ARs.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 2/9/2022 at 1:31 AM, Elena Core said:

Look at the teen grid. There are 16sqm parcels everywhere with some obelisks; I've seen the group getting land, cutting a mini parcel to place them and then sell the rest.

I used to love that continent, but that ruined it for me. I've seen large extensions of land appear now as 'repair' and are owned by Guy Linden, so I hope they plan on doing something about it

I interviewed the people doing this. They are utterly cynical and deliberate about doing it. I haven't seen that Guy Linden took over the obelisks.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 2/9/2022 at 4:59 PM, Feorie Frimon said:

I actually just interview someone a few days ago that is working on helping with that problem on Sharpe too. I had no idea - Sharpe is my fave continent so that is a real shame to hear. I hope they crack down over there. 

I mentioned this very issue to you in the past but apparently it took seeing it to understand it.

As for "help" -- How? Where? By whom? Timo has been raising this exact same issue of the demolition of Sharpe for YEARS. He has lists of the parcels in question. As I noted, I have queried the  land owners in question as to whether they could remove their obelisks or sell the land for a reasonable price. They are utterly cynical, just like the Bush Guy or Mr. Lee's Hong Kong, their predecessors in the land cutting history of SL. They used to have these as "spawn points" in a war game on the teen grid and they fondly remember their youth and want to keep them. They pointedly tell people just to de-render them. 

I personally don't think de-rendering is how you run a virtual world for lots of reasons.

[Feorie Frimon]

14 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I mentioned this very issue to you in the past but apparently it took seeing it to understand it.

As for "help" -- How? Where? By whom?

I think most people understand things better when they see them. I’m certainly no different. 
 

And as far as ‘help’ - it’s just a friend that is also sending in AR requests. Every AR ticket is help, right? 

[Rolig Loon]

9 minutes ago, Feorie Frimon said:

And as far as ‘help’ - it’s just a friend that is also sending in AR requests. Every AR ticket is help, right? 

 AR is an Abuse Report, to be submitted when you believe that you have witnessed a violation of the TOS.  If you want help with something, do not submit an AR.  Submit a Support Case at https://support.secondlife.com/create-case/ or simply ask in a relevant forum to see whether other residents have answers.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Rolig Loon

[Setsuki Takeda]

There is actually one of those "Sith Memorial" obelisks in front of my parcel, right along the road, in Southern Satori.

It looks *so* out of place next to the industrial look of my place, but I don't really mind it all that much, not like the giant billboard across the road that I derendered to make it stop feeding me a constant cycle of animations.