Here’s How to FIX Firestorm’s UGLY and make it look more like the beautiful default Second Life Viewer.

[Jessica Lyon]

I should add, I appreciate you giving guidance and advice to our users on how to alter the Firestorm interface. Not so much the toxic way you presented the information though.

Thanks.

[davidventer]

1 hour ago, Jessica Lyon said:

Not sarcasm at all. The viewer is open source and we always welcome contributions from the community. Especially given how much work we actually do with very few developers these days. In that Jira I created, I did point out issues and things I disliked. But pointing out things we dislike, offering suggestions on how they could be improved is a million times easier than actually making the changes, and more so maintaining those changes.

We don't really need advice or critique, although I do welcome it. What we need is people to help do the actual work, and then maintain that work for the next 5-10 years through dozens if not hundreds of code merges with LL code.

My point being, it's easy to pick apart what we don't like about something. It's a whole different world to try and fix it.

I see the dilemma, and admittedly, I'm a graphic designer, web developer and specialize mostly in web-based UI experiences, or merely designing graphical mockups of user interfaces for developers to implement. I'm not an app developer/programmer, and I have zero experience in working with the Viewer code. I just discovered the steps shared in my original post by messing around with the debug settings, so I'm not sure how I could contribute but I am willing to learn, and willing to contribute. Point me in the right direction. I could perhaps contribute with the design of the Firestorm website's front-end, not so much the viewer code.

Apologies if my OP came across as insulting the team, it was trigger words meant to attract others who find the Firestorm UI disgustingly ugly as well, and my contribution to the cause here was explaining to such people, how they can make some simple changes to make Firestorm more tolerable through the simple steps indicated in my original post. While this isn't exactly contributing to project code, it does provide those who are anti-Firestorm due to its UI; those who prefer the default viewer, a way to make Firestorm look more like the default viewer. Opening up Firestorm to the default Second Life Login screen and using the same color scheme as official Second Life properties creates an entirely different and a more seamless experience. 

Starlight Teal is not exactly perfect either. I think the default orange Firestorm theme looks better than Starlight in terms of the button opacity and the window borders/corners/title spacing but then the orange/gray/light-green/bright-blue messy mix of colors is an eyesore for many people and doesn't fit in with any of the other Second Life properties like the new search, the over-all color scheme of Second Life marketing materials and Second Life web properties, etc, so Starlight Teal provides a better experience in that regard. But why not have the Default Second Life Viewer skin as an option in Firestorm? And it's already available, no need for someone to contribute its design, it's there, free to use. Firestorm's orange theme is basically close to Default anyway, just with modded colors.

Why not leave the default Second Life viewer colors as an option to those who want a more seamless experience - on par with the colors of other Second Life properties (search/website/web-profiles/marketplace/etc)?

Edited November 26, 2021 by davidventer

[davidventer]

51 minutes ago, Jessica Lyon said:

I should add, I appreciate you giving guidance and advice to our users on how to alter the Firestorm interface. Not so much the toxic way you presented the information though.

Thanks.

My apologies, it was meant to attract the attention of those who dislike the Firestorm UI, to show them that it can be changed. I love Firestorm. I use Firestorm. I recommend Firestorm. My aim is not to insult the Firestorm team, but to show others that the UI can easily be made more tolerable for those who prefer a more cohesive experience on par with other official Second Life experiences, interfaces, colors and properties.

[NiranV Dean]

56 minutes ago, Jessica Lyon said:

Not sarcasm at all. The viewer is open source and we always welcome contributions from the community. Especially given how much work we actually do with very few developers these days. In that Jira I created, I did point out issues and things I disliked. But pointing out things we dislike, offering suggestions on how they could be improved is a million times easier than actually making the changes, and more so maintaining those changes.

We don't really need advice or critique, although I do welcome it. What we need is people to help do the actual work, and then maintain that work for the next 5-10 years through dozens if not hundreds of code merges with LL code.

My point being, it's easy to pick apart what we don't like about something. It's a whole different world to try and fix it.

Is it weird that i agree to this.

Mr Stark, i'm not feeling so good...

[Marigold Devin]

1 hour ago, Jessica Lyon said:

We look forward to your contribution, and thank you for your constructive feedback!
 

Jessica Lyon
Project Manager
Of the viewer with the disgusting and ancient-looking User Interface.

No complaints from me.

And thanks for everything. 

 

 

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, davidventer said:

Apologies if my OP came across as insulting the team, it was trigger words meant to attract others who find the Firestorm UI disgustingly ugly as well

An apology for and reiteration of the same insult in the same sentence.   Wow.

 

[davidventer]

25 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

An apology for and reiteration of the same insult in the same sentence.   Wow.

 

Please explain to me how calling a piece of software’s user interface ugly is in any way personally insulting anyone? Also, the Firestorm team is comprised of developers working on viewer feature code, they’re not UI or UX specialists. They are developers/coders; not designers. So again, how is this insulting? The viewer is ugly. I don’t recall saying the team is ugly. How is this an insult? In fact, I praise their work; the Firestorm Viewer features are amazing! 

I’m a designer, not an app developer. If I try to code and you tell me my code is trash, that’s not an insult, just a fact. Also; great developers/coders are often bad at UI/UX design. Calling the bad UI of their great coded features ugly is not a personal insult to them nor their code; just an observation of the ugly that’s on top of it. I don’t insult or blame a developer for making ugly design decisions. It is what it is… but it’s still ugly. And the steps I shared in my OP makes it less ugly. So, what’s your problem? 

Edited November 27, 2021 by davidventer

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, davidventer said:

Please explain to me how calling a piece of software’s user interface ugly is in any way personally insulting anyone? Also, the Firestorm team is comprised of developers working on viewer feature code, they’re not UI or UX specialists. So again, How is this insulting? The viewer is ugly. I don’t recall saying the team is ugly. How is this an insult?  

If I have to explain it...

A comment doesn't need to be directed AT anyone in particular to be insulting.  

If I were to say, "David, your avatar is disgustingly ugly." , it's still an insult even though I'm insulting something YOU made and find appealing, and NOT YOU personally.  

Get it?

[davidventer]

29 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

If I have to explain it...

A comment doesn't need to be directed AT anyone in particular to be insulting.  

If I were to say, "David, your avatar is disgustingly ugly." , it's still an insult even though I'm insulting something YOU made and find appealing, and NOT YOU personally.  

Get it?

So you’re taking offense to me apparently  “insulting” a graphic user interface of a piece of software, Made by a developer (not a designer). So the apparent “insult” isn’t even directed at their code/profession, just an observation of the lack of quality design on top of it? Albeit still not an insult…

…lol, what? 

Edited November 27, 2021 by davidventer

[Rowan Amore]

An insult is an insult regardless of who or what it's directed at.  Period.

As others have said, if you had come in and posted your 'fix' without the added insults, it would have probably gone unnoticed by most.  That you don't see it as an insult, speaks volumes.

Anyway, you strike me as someone who has to have the last word even if it's wrong.  Not an insult, by the way, so have at it.

 

 

[davidventer]

48 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

If I have to explain it...

A comment doesn't need to be directed AT anyone in particular to be insulting.  

If I were to say, "David, your avatar is disgustingly ugly." , it's still an insult even though I'm insulting something YOU made and find appealing, and NOT YOU personally.  

Get it?

Funny you should say that because my avatar is modeled after the real me, and I’m using my real name on here. So perhaps if you were to say my avatar is ugly, I would find that somewhat insulting but I wouldn’t take offense because I know that I’m not everyone’s type. No one is everyone’s type. Everyone is ugly to someone but beautiful to someone else. 
 

The same goes for the ugly Firestorm UI. You may not think it’s ugly, in which case, that’s cool, ignore my OP and move on. Some do think it’s ugly and I provided a solution for making it less ugly. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by davidventer

[davidventer]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

it would have probably gone unnoticed by most.

And that there is exactly why I used the words that I used. So that others who also dislike the UI and think it’s ugly can easily discover my provided fix. 

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, davidventer said:

I’m a designer, not an app developer. If I try to code and you tell me my code is trash, that’s not an insult, just a fact.

If we told you your critique was trash, would you accept that as fact, too?

[Lucia Nightfire]

I think this thread can be locked already. 99% of its purpose was served in the OP and not much of value followed.

[davidventer]

18 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

If we told you your critique was trash, would you accept that as fact, too?

Yes, my post here would be trash critique indeed but I have already offered the Firestorm team my critique on the Firestorm Jira long ago, right on Jessica’s Jira entry regarding the UI, and some more following that. My post here was not even directed at the Firestorm Team but at those who also think Firestorm is ugly, and I provided a fix for the ugly. 
 

Let me make this clear:

1. The OP here is a fix/solution for those who despise/don’t like the firestorm UI. It was not directed at the Firestorm Team but at users looking for how-to fix the Ugly.  

2. I could’ve used less unsavory words, but my words did get the point across and already attracted at least one person who thanked me for the fix and another who agreed with me. So, objective achieved. 
 

My non-trash constructive criticism that’s actually aimed at the Firestorm Team can be found on the Firestorm Jira. But as with Jessica’s entry, nothing came of that, so, here I am, providing a fix for the ugly to others who also think it’s nauseatingly hideous. You’re welcome. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by davidventer

[davidventer]

23 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

I think this thread can be locked already. 99% of its purpose was served in the OP and not much of value followed.

Exactly. It was meant as a how-to guide for people who don’t like the Firestorm UI, but also ended up attracting feedback from those who do like it. My OP would’ve been better served as a post with comments disabled entirely.

If you like the Firestorm UI, that’s cool, use it. This OP is not aimed at you. Ignore the OP. Move on and enjoy Firestorm. 
 

If you don’t like the Firestorm UI and stick to the default viewer because of it, guess what, you can make Firestorm look quite similar to the default viewer (sort of) by following my steps in the OP., then you too can enjoy the awesome extra features graciously gifted to us by the Firestorm dev team. You don’t have to use Default just because Firestorm is ugly. You can make it less ugly. See my OP for a how-to. 
 

Lindens, please lock this thread!
 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

3 hours ago, davidventer said:

So you’re taking offense to me apparently  “insulting” a graphic user interface of a piece of software, Made by a developer (not a designer). So the apparent “insult” isn’t even directed at their code/profession, just an observation of the lack of quality design on top of it? Albeit still not an insult…

…lol, what? 

How do you know it wasnt a designer that made the interface? 

[Marigold Devin]

I like it. I had never heard anyone grumble about it before this thread was started. It was designed to show all the information we (I personally) needed, such as number of avatars currently logged in, and some of the highlights. Plus a big ol' Phoenix and lovely warm colours. Always the start of another great adventure for me in Second Life. 

Also, from the very beginning of Firestorm, we've always had regular in world tutorials, and have always had plenty of options of how we want it to look and to run while we are actually logged in.  The OP's information comes across as rather too arrogant and a bit like teaching granny to suck eggs.  While no doubt there are a few people who were not aware the interface etc. could be changed, most Firestorm users are actually aware, and have been since the beginning. A lot of us systematically run through all the menus and debug settings just because we are a bit geeky like that anyway.

The in world Phoenix/Firestorm group continues to assist anyone who requires it, and still I haven't ever heard anyone in that group complain about it being "ugly".

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Marigold Devin

[bigmoe Whitfield]

Let me guess v6 is that horrible chui setup LL uses? if so, hell no. pass.

[Richardus Raymaker]

Thest login screen is empty one of still picture with less graphics. I never look at the login screen. The worse login screen is the secondlife viewer.

 

And i don't like the secondlife ui , the made it more complex then needed. Btw, not like v1 ui too, that's to old.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Richardus Raymaker

[davidventer]

51 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

Let me guess v6 is that horrible chui setup LL uses? if so, hell no. pass.

 No, Firestorm doesn’t use CHUI at all, not even in V6 Mode. 
 

V6 Mode along with Starlight Teal will mostly just give you better, more modern looking inventory icons (Not the old Windows 95 type folders, etc), Colors on par with other Second Life properties,  and some placement changes to chat and things that make it feel (sort of) more like the Default viewer, for those who prefer the UI of the default viewer. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by davidventer

[Ansariel Hiller]

16 minutes ago, davidventer said:

 No, Firestorm doesn’t use CHUI at all, not even in V6 Mode. 
 

V6 Mode along with Starlight Teal will mostly just give you better, more modern looking inventory icons (Not the old Windows 95 type folders, etc), Colors on par with other Second Life properties,  and some placement changes to chat and things that make it feel (sort of) more like the Default viewer, for those who prefer the UI of the default viewer. 

If you like the Starlight skins so much, you just qualified to maintain those since nobody else wants to do it.

[davidventer]

1 hour ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

If you like the Starlight skins so much, you just qualified to maintain those since nobody else wants to do it.

Nope, Starlight is not ideal with its transparencies, thin widow titles, and sharp window borders. I’m only suggesting it for its color scheme being on par with official Second Life properties (web profiles, marketplace, the official login screen  etc,) making it feel sort of close to the default UI. It would be better to drop Starlight Teal, and instead just include the Default Viewer skin as an option rather than trying to maintain Starlight. Less work for all. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by davidventer

[davidventer]

27 minutes ago, davidventer said:

Nope, Starlight is not ideal with its transparencies, thin widow titles, and sharp window borders. I’m only suggesting it for its color scheme being on par with official Second Life properties (web profiles, marketplace, the official login screen  etc,) making it feel sort of close to the default UI. It would be better to drop Starlight Teal, and instead just include the Default Viewer skin as a skin option rather than trying to maintain Starlight. Less work for all. 

I like what the Catznip team has done; Their viewer looks Default (in terms of colors, top menu bar and button opacity), so it actually matches other Second Life properties like the marketplace, web profiles, the official website, etc. it feels like Second Life. They’ve just added their features to it. Why can’t Firestorm provide users with the same as an option? 
 

And before anyone says “Just use the default viewer or just use Catznip” - Firestorm has THE BEST features and the whole point of this original post is to show users and potential users who don’t like Firestorm’s Orange/bright-green text/etc. that it can be made to look like the default viewer (sort of) while still enjoying all of its great features (Thank you Firestorm Team). Starlight TEAL is the compromise, but having the Default skin as an option with the official colors, top bar and button opacity would make it perfect and on Par with what everything else related to Second Life looks like (the web properties etc.), removing the need for Starlight Teal Maintenance. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by davidventer

[Ansariel Hiller]

31 minutes ago, davidventer said:

Nope, Starlight is not ideal with its transparencies, thin widow titles, and sharp window borders. I’m only suggesting it for its color scheme being on par with official Second Life properties (web profiles, marketplace, the official login screen  etc,) making it feel sort of close to the default UI. It would be better to drop Starlight Teal, and instead just include the Default Viewer skin as an option rather than trying to maintain Starlight. Less work for all. 

The default viewer skin with the large empty areas in like every window? I bet not! And like I said: You can take over maintaining the Starlight skins - then you can also adjust the negative aspects of them or make them more defaultviewer-ish!

Instead of fabulating about applying apparent web design principles (which I personally feel became utterly insulting ugly in the recent years), you should just grab the Starlight skin design and come up with an alternative design. Don't want to do it? Fine! Me neither. But then stop complaining about the sheer ugliness or simply use the default LL viewer and bug them on their JIRA to add the Firestorm features you would like to see in there.