ChinRey Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 5 hours ago, Jennifer Boyle said: Why are these mutually exclusive? Why can't a viewer have multiple user-selecable interfaces? Good point. There's no reason why the UI can't be customisable as long as the default is new user friendly. 6 hours ago, Adam Spark said: Too many people make the same mistake I did. ... I was trying to run a venue before I knew had to put two basic cube prims together side by side using simple math for precision placement. I think we all made the same mistake trying to run before we could crawl. But to be fair to us all, the UI and all the starter/tutorial sim setups I've encountered are specially made to lead people down that path! I would actually have gone much further than you in simplification and introduced the LWTT principle. Look, Walk, Touch, Talk Those are the four core functions of a shared virtual reality in order of priority. Those words even have a nice rhyme and rhythm. Look: Obviously, see the scene on your screen or in your goggles. That's the first. Walk: Be able to move around in the scene Touch: Interact with the environment Talk: Communicate with other people Everything else are secondary functions and should be kept out of sight until needed. 7 hours ago, Adam Spark said: -how to buy items. You can start with freebies. Don't worry about linden dollars yet. -how to use inventory to change your clothes That should not be necessary for beginners. Head over and check out IMVU's starter avatar system. (You don't have to create an account there, you can play around with the avatar looks before you register and give them any personal info.) This is not unique to IMVU. If I remember correctly, Sansar had something like that and I've seen it in several online games too. I see no reason why SL can't have something similar and more (like color options for hair and clothes, maybe some non human starters and a couple of presets for those who can't be bothered to spend time on their avatar). With that there would be no need for newcomers to worry about the clumsy inventory system before they've had time to make themselves comfortable with the basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animats Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 47 minutes ago, ChinRey said: Good point. There's no reason why the UI can't be customisable as long as the default is new user friendly. This is a curse of open source programs. Customization just dumps the problem of creating a good user interface on each individual user. No, you have to get a reasonably good design and not allow too much customization. It just confuses things. Anyone remember Myspace? With customizable interfaces, tutorials and videos don't line up with what the user sees. Tutorials go out of date rapidly. Blender tutorials are famous for this. The big question in each new release of Blender is "Where did button/menu X move to?" 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 11 minutes ago, animats said: Customization just dumps the problem of creating a good user interface on each individual user. No, you have to get a reasonably good design and not allow too much customization. It just confuses things. Customization options should never be a substitute for a good default and yes, it shouldn't be taken too far. But what I actually had in mind was something Firestorm already has: a few alternative "heritage" skins emulating the interfaces of older viewers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animats Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 What I'd be inclined to do to the current interface is make it disappear completely until you bring the mouse pointer to the bottom or top of the window. Much like the way the controls work on YouTube videos. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritSparrow Skydancer Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 On 10/30/2021 at 8:11 AM, Coffee Pancake said: EG A special kind of folder that contains a collection of inventory items including an image and tags. I have been asking for this for years!! Thumbnails that you do not have to PAY to upload to your inventory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindal Kidd Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 On 11/13/2021 at 1:42 PM, cunomar said: I been here almost 4 and a half years and your telling me now the "wear" option actually serves a purpose ? "Wear" used to be our ONLY option, until LL made it possible to have more than one attachment per attach point and more than one piece of system clothing in a clothing layer. These were huge improvements, but they did make the choices, and the interface, more confusing. "Wear" is still the only option for the Essential Four items, the ones that allow (and require!) one and only one item in their category: shape, skin, eyes, and system hair (or baldy). Physics too, but that's not an essential part of a minimum avatar. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindal Kidd Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 2 hours ago, animats said: What I'd be inclined to do to the current interface is make it disappear completely until you bring the mouse pointer to the bottom or top of the window. Much like the way the controls work on YouTube videos. I don't think this would work, at least for me. I keep my nearby chat and IM windows and my inventory open at all times, over on one side of my screen. I'd go crazy if they were appearing and disappearing all the time. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 8 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said: You mean like the "Undo Changes" button in "Edit My Outfit"? No, "Undo Change". Don't want to revert to the last saved outfit but to the last worn hair, shoes, dress or whatever last item I replaced or added on. And ceertainly don't want to have to have the Edit outfit window open each time but just a keyboard shortcut or even a readily accessible button to do it. Kinda like they do for blender, gimp/PS, or almost any other app wherein one makes successive changes and then wishes to revert to a single previous change. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said: No, "Undo Change". Don't want to revert to the last saved outfit but to the last worn hair, shoes, dress or whatever last item I replaced or added on. And ceertainly don't want to have to have the Edit outfit window open each time but just a keyboard shortcut or even a readily accessible button to do it. Kinda like they do for blender, gimp/PS, or almost any other app wherein one makes successive changes and then wishes to revert to a single previous change. Sooo, you want your attachment to change whenever you accidentally type in a keystroke? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Sooo, you want your attachment to change whenever you accidentally type in a keystroke? You can do better than that Theresa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 43 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: You can do better than that Theresa. I just did: https://jira.secondlife.com/projects/BUG/issues/BUG-231447?filter=allo*****sues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 24 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: I just did: https://jira.secondlife.com/projects/BUG/issues/BUG-231447?filter=allo*****sues No idea what your "wear as" feature request has to do with a revert or control z option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Profaitchikenz Haiku Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 I have long wanted an undo feature, particularly in editing, where you think you've clicked on "edit linked parts" or "select face" and it's only when the entire linkset gets the same texture across all faces you realise you were fooled. However, working through in my mind what would be needed to implement it does explain why it hasn't been added, not only would it require an enormous amount of data to be stored to record the changes made to what thing where and when, but reverting such changes would require quite a barrage of viewer to region communication, which would in itself add to the lag that probably contributed to the click on "edit linked parts" not sticking in the first place. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahKB7 Koskinen Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 There used to be a dumbed down basic viewer around 10-ish years ago which was specifically made for newbies and lacked some everyday features that were common to mainstream viewers. My memory of it now is cloudy, but I think it might have been an alternative offered by either LL or Phoenix/Firestorm if I'm not mistaken. Anyone else remember it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: No idea what your "wear as" feature request has to do with a revert or control z option. It can help with the problem of things knocking other attachments off without needing to create a data cache or creating the possibility of quickly spamming the server with "undo" requests, which your proposal would require. (I used to use CADD systems back when the only way to have the necessary computing power was to work on terminals connected to a mainframe. And they didn't have "undo.") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 8 hours ago, animats said: What I'd be inclined to do to the current interface is make it disappear completely until you bring the mouse pointer to the bottom or top of the window. Much like the way the controls work on YouTube videos. Interesting. Where did you get that idea from? 6 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said: I don't think this would work, at least for me. I keep my nearby chat and IM windows and my inventory open at all times, over on one side of my screen. I'd go crazy if they were appearing and disappearing all the time. Mouseover action should never be used for windows and palettes but that's not what we're talking about here. This is about toolbars and possibly the menu bar. It shouldn't be used for individual menus/buttons either, at least not for unimportant ones. --- Imagine if the viewer had some buttons on the menu bar that opened on mouseover while others didn't. Imagine for example if the viewer's menu bar included some shortcut buttons for controls most people rarely use. Let's say camera presets, graphics presets, parcel media on/off, media on/off and sound mixer. Imagine that four of those buttons opened automatically on mouseover but one right in the middle didn't. And for good measure, let's imagine they opened so fast they popped up if you accidentally moved you mouse cursor there for a fraction of a second and then took ages to close. Sorry about the long description, I was trying to come up with a worst case scenario and ended up with something so far off it's hard to grasp even as a joke. But if you can manage to imagine an interface like this, I'm sure you will agree that it would be an UI as bad as something that was really, really bad to start with and then got much worse. --- In contrast, take a look at how the Mac OSX dock works. Unless you've deliberately chosen to keep it open all the time, it stays out of sight and out of the way until you move the mouse cursor to the edge of the screen. Then it opens fast, but not so fast it may be triggered by accident. Move the cursor away from the edge and the dock vanishes almost instantly. --- There's an extra point here. The contrast between my purely fictional worst case scenario and the Mac OSX' flawless implementation of the same basic principle. A good idea is not enough to make good design. It's how it is implemented that makes the difference between success and disaster. Or as the old song goes: It ain't what you do, it's the way you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 43 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said: I have long wanted an undo feature, particularly in editing, where you think you've clicked on "edit linked parts" or "select face" and it's only when the entire linkset gets the same texture across all faces you realise you were fooled. However, working through in my mind what would be needed to implement it does explain why it hasn't been added, not only would it require an enormous amount of data to be stored to record the changes made to what thing where and when, but reverting such changes would require quite a barrage of viewer to region communication, which would in itself add to the lag that probably contributed to the click on "edit linked parts" not sticking in the first place. As far can see it would only require a list of uuids to call up and attach. It already does this on the saved outfits as well as doing the same on the last one before log out. Would only be looking at holding on to for example the five last lists no of worn items so you can revert back five steps. Would it really be any different than the typical NPC XML file that is what an NPC script uses to clothe an npc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 43 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: It can help with the problem of things knocking other attachments off without needing to create a data cache or creating the possibility of quickly spamming the server with "undo" requests, which your proposal would require. (I used to use CADD systems back when the only way to have the necessary computing power was to work on terminals connected to a mainframe. And they didn't have "undo.") Can either spam the server with one undo request, or spam it with multiple changes trying to find the previously worn hair, skirt, shoes, etc. As far as load on the server is concerned it really would make little difference and in fact would probably be more efficient as it only has to be done once or twice. Quite a bit easier than having to dig around and search for the specific item that was being worn previously. I can no longer remember whether there was a ctrl z on the Computer Vision cadds systems that I was on back in the mid 80s but whatever, my cell phone has more power than those mainframes did back then. There's been a lot of progress since then, or are you suggesting that we stay stuck in the '80s? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 13 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: As far can see it would only require a list of uuids to call up and attach. It already does this on the saved outfits as well as doing the same on the last one before log out. Would only be looking at holding on to for example the five last lists no of worn items so you can revert back five steps. Would it really be any different than the typical NPC XML file that is what an NPC script uses to clothe an npc? Thennnn why don't you just use the saved outfits, which have exactly this feature, and will also show you exactly what you bonked off and allow you to re-attach it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Thennnn why don't you just use the saved outfits, which have exactly this feature, and will also show you exactly what you bonked off and allow you to re-attach it? Because it's not about me or you and our multiple year experiences with working with the viewer. This thread is about what can we do to make life easier for a SL newbie. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Because it's not about me or you and our multiple year experiences with working with the viewer. This thread is about what can we do to make life easier for a SL newbie. I don't have any problems using outfits because that's how I learned to do things as a newbie. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Profaitchikenz Haiku Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said: As far can see it would only require a list of uuids to call up and attach. Also it would need the attach point, position and rotation because you could have tried attaching it to your jacksie and decided that isn't the right place for a rolling-pin. Supposing you had also decided to change the texture on it, or remove some of the content? Changed it's size, edited some components of the linkset, added, deleted or amended a script in it? If it were *that* easy, why haven't the Openimulator devs implemented it? Edited November 20, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said: Also it would need the attach point, position and rotation because you could have tried attaching it to your jacksie and decided that isn't the right place for a rolling-pin. Supposing your had also decided to change the texture on it, or remove some of the content? Changed it's size, edited some components of the linkset? If it were *that* easy, why haven't the Openimulator devs implemented it? The attachment point, rotation and position are already set for the item in my inventory that the uuid is pointing at. I'm assuming from my understanding of how the viewer works that any previously worn item is now already in the viewer cache and would not need to be redownloaded. The Opensimulator developers are server devs not viewer and I believe the control z function would be viewer only. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Profaitchikenz Haiku Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: The Opensimulator developers are server devs not viewer and I believe the control z function would be viewer only. That will depend on whether it is the viewer that keeps track of what the avatar is wearing or the region, and my understanding from the way the bake servers work, it isn't the viewer. Much as I love diverting people I think we ought to get back on topic (*), I do think that for newcomers, the ability to undo changes would be a benefit, perhaps more so than for established people who will now know the many tricks for keeping track of what got changed and how to change it back. But as with the viewer in general, I don't think the lack of an undo feature is what is driving away newcomers. (*) Since my attempts to gain my warning badges to catch up with that Deakins feller by topic-swerving have failed, I'm trying a new tack, being a topic-killjoy, maybe that will work ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Mistwalker Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said: No idea what your "wear as" feature request has to do with a revert or control z option. Ctrl Z is reserved for building undo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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