Where to find hotspots for black people?

[Orwar]

22 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

But not all opinions are equally valuable.

   On principle, of course they do. In reality ..

[Caroline Takeda]

7 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Nope sorry...my opinion stands. I like ice.

I think Rowan made pretty clear that it is not a race thing to her, but a cultural or regional thing. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

However the TO does sound indeed  racist. 

A phrase like this:

 

Quote

 I don't have an issue with other races

Indicates a racist attitude. First of all because it is denying the fact that there are actually no different human races. In science it is called variations not races.

Differences between people are not caused by the colour of one's skin, but rather by the eniromental and cultural circumstances. A black US citizen is different to a black Nigerian as well as a white German is different to a white Russian for aforementioned reasons.

Same applies to statements like:

Quote

 I'd prefer to spend my time in area where there's more people like me.

 To meet more people like me (black people here), regardless of culture, nationality or regional interests, explicitly makes a difference between people based on their "race" .

That  is actually racism by definition. I am sure the TO has no bad intentions, she might not even be aware, that this is exactly how we define racism.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Caroline Takeda

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Caroline Takeda said:

Differences between people are not caused by the colour of one's skin, but rather by the eniromental and cultural circumstances. A black US citizen is different to a black Nigerian as well as a white German is different to a white Russian for aforementioned reasons.

when we first see some one for the first time then we don't know that the person is a US citizen or from Nigeria. We don't know that a German is not a Russian. What we know we first see them is that there is a black person and over there is a white person

our first recognition that are different has nothing to with our or their environmental and cultural circumstances

our seeing that a person has dark or light skin, that they are different, is a fact. Is a  fact that they have, and a fact that we see this

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Caroline Takeda said:

To meet more people like me

I prefer to meet people closer to my age.  Doesn't make me ageist just.more likely to have things in common with people my age.  

I don't understand why you seem to think it's any different than people looking for  trans people, short people, other whatever all with your quote "people like me (older people here).  It doesn't make any of those people against any other people, just more at ease with people they have similar interests or experiences with.   

Just seems because it's a black person asking, it somehow has to end up being racist.  Geezus people.  Stop it.

 

[Caroline Takeda]

5 hours ago, Mollymews said:

when we first see some one for the first time then we don't know that the person is a US citizen or from Nigeria. We don't know that a German is not a Russian. What we know we first see them is that there is a black person and over there is a white person

our first recognition that are different has nothing to with our or their environmental and cultural circumstances

our seeing that a person has dark or light skin, that they are different, is a fact. Is a  fact that they have, and a fact that we see this

Know the saying "never judge a book by his cover"?

 

[Caroline Takeda]

4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

It doesn't make any of those people against any other people, just more at ease with people they have similar interests or experiences with.   

Thats is exactly my point.

Same skin colour does not imply similar interests or experiences.

[Robin Kiyori]

I swear, everytime someone from a marginlized indenity or community  tries to innocently ask about where to find places or groups with similar experiences or indenties as them. Quite a few in this fourm go absolutely hog wild and derail it with how "omg it doesn't matter ur just racist/the real bigoted one omg!1111" and turn the thread into a cesspit of fighting over nothing.

 

Which ironically just proves WHY we seek out these spaces. Because if some of you can't even handle such a non issue. How the duck are we supposed to feel comfortable talking about the actual issues we face?

[Orwar]

1 hour ago, Robin Kiyori said:

I swear, everytime someone from a marginlized indenity or community  tries to innocently ask about where to find places or groups with similar experiences or indenties as them. Quite a few in this fourm go absolutely hog wild and derail it with how "omg it doesn't matter ur just racist/the real bigoted one omg!1111" and turn the thread into a cesspit of fighting over nothing.

 

Which ironically just proves WHY we seek out these spaces. Because if some of you can't even handle such a non issue. How the duck are we supposed to feel comfortable talking about the actual issues we face?

   And this is ironic, as it shows how you feel the 'non-marginalised' people are when we mirror the behaviour of the marginalised. 

   "We want equality, but we also want the rights to exclude people based on ethnicity, gender, or sexuality". Right - good luck making that come true without causing an increase of actual, genuine racism, further polarisation, and more conflict and contempt.

   This is not equality:

   Person A gets to exclude person B based on ethnicity - because person A belongs to ethnicity X and person B belongs to ethnicity Y. 
   Person B doesn't get to exclude person A based on ethnicity - because that's racism. 

   This would be equality:

   Person A doesn't get to exclude anyone based on ethnicity, sexuality, or gender - and neither does person B, because they're equal and have the same rights and the same responsibilities.
   Or:
   Person A gets to exclude anyone based on ethnicity, sexuality, or gender - and so does person B, because they're equal and have the same rights and the same responsibilities. 

   I'm well aware that we currently do not live in any kind of utopia, and that there absolutely are issues that need to be addressed, but many of the arguments raised by the 'tHeRe Is nO wHiTe RaCiSm'-crowd are completely counterintuitive. You do not put out fires by throwing more fuel at them. 

   .. Or we just give up on the whole quest for equality thing, and just keep spewing toxic at each other and see who snaps first. It's not like the current rise of nationalism and its ilk is at all a logical outcome of anything like pushing a pendulum or anything. 

[Kathlen Onyx]

10 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But not all opinions are equally valuable.   And I will also, leave it at that.

You have no idea Rowan how very true I find that.

[Robin Kiyori]

Or you can stop jumping at conculsions. At no point did I or anyone say that we want to exculde anyone that isn't part of our marginalized community.

What people do want and this is important.
Is a space to meet people with similar experiences and support networks. Especially in these covid times where our ability to find these experiences in real life have been deminished due to lockdown. These spaces do not, contray to popular misconception exculde people outisde the maginlised communities. Often times they readily welcome others as dear friends, family and allies because we can't change the current real life world without suppirt both within and outside our communities.

In fact allot of us long for the day when these communities are no longer needed. That we can exist anywhere anytime with out worry.

 

But that isn't the world right now. When people can't even show rightful anger at their own people being murdered or ***** even politely ask to have more fictional characters without being harassedor threatened with violence.
It's sort of still nessarcy to have at least one place or space where we can just breathe and talk about issues without harassment.

And no Second Life isn't guilt free from this. I have been harassed for my gender and disability, others for their race. Sl is part of the greater whole. Flaws and all.

Instead of blaminnthe victims. Maybe we should idk. Look at the rwal reason the worlds getting more wonky. Like the big  golbal pandemic. Ecomonical inequality.

[Rowan Amore]

39 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   

 

   Person A gets to exclude person B based on ethnicity - because person A belongs to ethnicity X and person B belongs to ethnicity Y. 
   Person B doesn't get to exclude person A based on ethnicity - because that's racism. 

   

Where in the OP did she say anything about places that exclude anyone?  It's exactly the same as a person who might not speak English very well asking where other people who speak Greek hang out. 

There's a beach in SL that only allows women.  Why are people not up in arms demanding they close or accept men?.  Why did no one jump on the poster asking where all the Brits were?  The thread asking for people from Singapore?  Furry friendly places?  

I know you can find different people in all kinds of different places but the next time you all go to any busy place, look around.  Do most people look like you?  What % of people are of color?  40 people are Fameshed and 2 people of color.  

As far as racism comments, please check your definition.

a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Did she say anything about finding black people because they're superior? No.  

My example.post...

Hi everyone!  I'm new to second life and so far, having a great time.  I was just wondering if anyone could help me find places where single people over 50 might hang out or any groups I could join.  I love hanging out with people who have similar life experience.  I do love the energy of the younger folks and have no trouble finding places they like.  Where are all you over 50 people hiding?!?  😃

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[Kathlen Onyx]

40 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

 

Hi everyone!  I'm new to second life and so far, having a great time.  I was just wondering if anyone could help me find places where single people over 50 might hang out or any groups I could join.  I love hanging out with people who have similar life experience.  I do love the energy of the younger folks and have no trouble finding places they like.  Where are all you over 50 people hiding?!?  😃

 

Hi everyone!  I'm new to second life and so far, having a great time.  I was just wondering if anyone could help me find places where white people hang out or any groups I could join.  I love hanging out with people who have similar life experiences. I don't have an issue with other races it's just that for me personally I'd prefer to spend my time in area where there's more people like me. I've tried going out to make friends in general but the conversations don't stick.  Where are all you white people hiding?!?

Doesn't sound so great worded like that does it?  All the other groups mentioned are not races. Brits, Furry's, Women, Lesbian's, people over 50, people under 50, Brits that like mermaids, etc. It may be discriminatory but not racist.  It also should be mentioned that a person presenting as white female may indeed be a black male behind the avatar or someone that looks like a black male may actually be a white transgender female. That is why you need to go out and talk to people and find out who they really are.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Sam1 Bellisserian

[Rowan Amore]

 the average black person's friend network is eight percent white, but the average white person's network is only one percent black. To put it another way: Blacks have ten times as many black friends as white friends. But white Americans have an astonishing 91 times as many white friends as black friends.

There are a number of factors driving these numbers. Simple population counts are one of them: There are more white people than black people in the United States, so it makes sense that the average American is going to have more white friends than black friends.

Another factor is our tendency to seek out and associate with people who are similar to us in any number of ways - religiously, politically, economically and, yes, racially, too. The polite term for this phenomenon is "sorting," and it affects everything from political polarization to income inequality to the racial differences in friend networks.

White avatars are NOT a minority in SL, Sam so again, if someone did ask where all the white people were, it would be to stir the pot.

And...she wasn't EXCLUDING anyone.  Sorting yes, discriminating or being racist, NO.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[Silent Mistwalker]

12 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

That is why you need to go out and talk to people and find out who they really are.

Good luck with that since many people in SL do not want anyone to know who they really are. It's why they don't share anything from their real lives.

[Kathlen Onyx]

5 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Good luck with that since many people in SL do not want anyone to know who they really are. It's why they don't share anything from their real lives.

So what makes you think that they would be honest here on the forums?  

 

8 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

 the average black person's friend network is eight percent white, but the average white person's network is only one percent black. To put it another way: Blacks have ten times as many black friends as white friends. But white Americans have an astonishing 91 times as many white friends as black friends.

There are a number of factors driving these numbers. Simple population counts are one of them: There are more white people than black people in the United States, so it makes sense that the average American is going to have more white friends than black friends.

Another factor is our tendency to seek out and associate with people who are similar to us in any number of ways - religiously, politically, economically and, yes, racially, too. The polite term for this phenomenon is "sorting," and it affects everything from political polarization to income inequality to the racial differences in friend networks.

White avatars are NOT a minority in SL, Sam so again, if someone did ask where all the white people were, it would be to stir the pot.

And...she wasn't EXCLUDING anyone.  Sorting yes, discriminating or being racist, NO.

 

The polite word for racism is "sorting"? 

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

Orwar and Sam1 - Are you not actually reading what anyone else is saying? Because it feels like your not. More just casually skipping through it and making assumptions that are way off base. 

Yes everyone is entitled to opinions, but facts trump opinions. As I pointed out a few pages ago, and as have others:

SHE NEVER SAID SHE WANTED TO EXCLUDE ANYONE. Merely that she would like to hang out in a place where there are MORE people like her. There's a MASSIVE difference. 

Sorry to shout, but you dont seem to be paying people the courtesy of actually listening to what they are actually saying. I dont understand how your failing to grasp this very basic distinction. 

I dont like/want to hang out with (insert race here) = Racism.
I would like to meet/hang out with more people like me = not racism.

Its really very simple.

Were all entitled to discriminate in regards to the company we keep. Along any lines we want. Thats not automatically racism. It only becomes racist if your actively excluding ALL people from a specific ethnic or cultural group specifically because they are from those groups.

EDIT - obviously, this is referring to this conversation specifically. There are other more insidious forms of racism that are more structural and complex. I believe that we are ALL inherently racist/discriminatory to some degree. Its our old tribal monkey-brain at work.

Edited May 14, 2021 by AnnabelleApocalypse

[Kathlen Onyx]

29 minutes ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said:

SHE NEVER SAID SHE WANTED TO EXCLUDE ANYONE. Merely that she would like to hang out in a place where there are MORE people like her. There's a MASSIVE difference. 

 

Worded differently is all. Not a massive difference.

[Silent Mistwalker]

30 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

So what makes you think that they would be honest here on the forums?  

What makes you think I believe they are? I know all too well just how cruel humans are.

[Rowan Amore]

19 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

So what makes you think that they would be honest here on the forums?  

 

The polite word for racism is "sorting"? 

Did you even read the definition of.racism?  

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

The OP was doing none of that.  We all choose who we associate based on many factors.  Gender, political affiliation ( moreso  recently) religious background and of course race.  Socializing with people of a similar background as oneself is only natural but somehow, people assume the OP was doing so for racist reasons.  Believing black people are somehow superior?  WTF?  Show me where she said that.  

Her mention of NOT having issues with other races was probably to avoid just the attitude shown in this thread.  

Frankly, I've said all I have to say on the topic.  

 

 

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Believing black people are somehow superior?  WTF?  Show me where she said that.  

 

Show me where I insinuated she thought black people were superior? 

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Show me where I insinuated she thought black people were superior? 

That is the root of racism.  Again, check your definition of what racism IS.  Therefore, she was NOT being racist.  How are you not understanding that?  

Believing one race is superior.  Being antagonistic or derogatory based on race.  Discriminating based on race.

No where does in her post is she doing any of that.

Simply asking where the heck in SL black people hang out is NOT, and I repeat, NOt racist.

I have a feeling this wouldn't be such an issue if someone asked about Asians.  Another racial minority in SL.  

 

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

20 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Worded differently is all. Not a massive difference.

No, its not semantics. Its clearly means something very different. Surprise but words actually mean things. 

Like I said:

I dont like/dont want to hang out with (insert race here) = Racism.
I would like to meet/hang out with more people like me = not racism.

Its really, really, (really, really) very simple. Pick up a dictionary, please.

If I, as a person from the UK say "I would like to meet more people from the UK, but no northern Irish because they are a bunch of thieving drunks" THATS racism.

However - "I would like to meet more people from Mainland UK" - perfectly fine. 

EDIT - I'm Welsh/Irish, so I can totally say the above

Edited May 14, 2021 by AnnabelleApocalypse

[Kathlen Onyx]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

That is the root of racism.  Again, check your definition of what racism IS.  Therefore, she was NOT being racist.  How are you not understanding that?  

Believing one race is superior.  Being antagonistic or derogatory based on race.  Discriminating based on race.

No where does in her post is she doing any of that.

Simply asking where the heck in SL black people hang out is NOT, and I repeat, NOt racist.

I have a feeling this wouldn't be such an issue if someone asked about Asians.  Another racial minority in SL.  

 

I appreciate your opinion however, let's agree to disagree. I think she was being racist and you don't. Neither one of us is going to change each other's opinion. AND on that note that is all I will say about it.

[Coffee Pancake]

No one thinks the OP has a problem with race.

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

No one thinks the OP has a problem with race.

Someone does.  Sadly.