covid Why Did It Take So Long to Accept the Facts About Covid?

[Chroma Starlight]

24 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

You said you wanted to travel this Summer and that there are quarantines. 

No, I believe that they are referring to my response to someone who proposed that we should shutter all borders and isolate everyone in place because this is the 21st century and it would now seem we just don't know what viruses are or how to respond to them any more. I did point out that all this was unnecessary because testing and quarantining are how, as a matter of social health policy, we handle such issues because we are educated and civilized, we human beings. And so apply your best Enlightened insight and intuition, because this pandemic was foreseen in early 2020 to be an existential crisis worthy of a global response with the full measure of long-prepared controls for such emergencies. That is exactly why we invested so much in having a ready response, and that is why it is now so mystifying that it could have been interfered with.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Chroma Starlight

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

To a great extent, in an ideal world I agree with you 100%. But the response so far has proven that we are not in an ideal scenario.

But my opinion is based on how this pandemic has unfolded so far, from my perspective here in the UK.

Test, trace and quarantine have failed to stop a single variant entering the country. This is just a fact.

Various scientific and international health bodies have been shouting for years about the possibility of a pandemic just like this one. Governments didnt listen. We could have had all the infrastructure in place to better deal with this.

But, money. So we didnt.

Edited May 19, 2021 by AnnabelleApocalypse

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Chroma Starlight said:

If the government doesn't have enough power to control what happens within its own borders, isn't it said to have become a failed government? Could it be the issue isn't control, but rather compliance of the government with its duty to the citizens whose vested authority it wields?

 

 

 

 

Guess who disbanded the one committee the US needed for a pandemic type situation just a year or two before Covid-19 reared it's ugly head.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[Chroma Starlight]

4 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

etc etc

Edited May 19, 2021 by Chroma Starlight

[Silent Mistwalker]

Just now, Chroma Starlight said:

 

Incorrect. The orange baboon disbanded that committee long before the 2020 election. People always blame the sitting president for things the previous one did.

[Chroma Starlight]

4 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

Incorrect. The orange baboon disbanded that committee long before the 2020 election. People always blame the sitting president for things the previous one did.

I'm not referring to stuff that happened in Trump's administration.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Chroma Starlight

[Luna Bliss]

23 minutes ago, Chroma Starlight said:

27 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

Incorrect. The orange baboon disbanded that committee long before the 2020 election. People always blame the sitting president for things the previous one did.

I'm not referring to stuff that happened in Trump's administration.

Here's Biden's plan from mid-Feb for contact tracing. Do you know if any steps have been taken so far to achieve it?

https://joebiden.com/beat-covid19/

The Trump Fiasco: The failure to test swiftly and broadly led to the failure to get the virus under control. After deflecting blame for months, Donald Trump has repeatedly doubled down on his orders to slow down testing. It is unacceptable that with cases surging in some parts of the country and Americans urged to go back to work in others, we still do not have the basic capacity in testing and contact tracing we need to sustainably manage this virus. In Arizona, this past week, Americans with COVID-19 have had to wait in baking hot cars in miles-long lines for a test, and those were the lucky ones who had an appointment. In March, Donald Trump claimed that every American who wanted a test could get one. It was a lie then. It’s still a lie.

The Biden Plan: 

• Stand up a Pandemic Testing Board to massively surge a nationwide campaign and guarantee regular, reliable, and free access to testing for all, including every worker called back on the job .
• Double the number of drive-through testing sites and increase the numbers until there are no more lines.
• Build a national contact tracing workforce, starting by hiring at least 100,000 Americans and equipping sorely under-resourced public health departments with the resources they need to spot and stop outbreaks. 

[Luna Bliss]

On 5/18/2021 at 10:30 AM, FairreLilette said:

On 5/18/2021 at 10:12 AM, Luna Bliss said:

It remains a possibility, and it indeed could have happened accidentally. I did some research on labs and the numerous mistakes made in them, and believe me, it was scary.

There are efforts underway to attain the benefits accrued in the Gain Of Function research used in many labs worldwide in a safer way.

 Like all human endeavors, we have to weigh costs and benefits.

Expand  

What kind of a "lab leak"...as I've not read anything about it.  Which link is best for a quick read?

I don't want to post them, for the same reason I don't want to post information about nurses who kill people....there is already too much distrust of science and institutions today, and this distrust is partially to blame for all the disinformation causing so much harm recently in the U.S.

Sure, we need to know about medical mistakes, but how many people who watched Nurses Who Kill on Netflix now believe this is a frequent occurrence? Or how many people who learn that indeed lab mistakes happen, and who discover the Wuhan lab experimented with Coronavirus, automatically believe the lab-leak theory is more likely than the virus manifesting in the wild?  (like you did).

I'm all for finding out whether Covid-19 came from a lab mutation vs a wild mutation, and I think we do need to beef up lab safety all over the world, but I'm as concerned about how the lab-leak issue will be used politically to discredit Science in general and cause division in the U.S. This is what I see the Republicans attempting in their focus on the lab-leak.

The following is an excerpt from an article by David Frum describing the issue:

The pro-Trump Culture War On American Scientists

In many ways, what is happening is highly reminiscent of the anti-Communist battles of the late 1940s and early 1950s. In those days, the United States faced a dangerous external challenge from Soviet Communism. Isolationist Republicans had little interest in meeting that challenge: It would cost money and implied foreign commitments. They opposed the Marshall Plan, NATO, everything that really mattered. Instead, they used the foreign threat to justify launching a purge against an enemy within: domestic ideological opponents.

The United States is today in danger of repeating that sorry history. Pro-Trumpers want to use Chinese misconduct—real and imagined—as a weapon in a culture war here at home. They are not interested in weighing the evidence. They want payback for the political and cultural injuries inflicted on them by the scientists. They want Fauci to have time in the barrel.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/chinese-lab-coronavirus-leak-origin-theory/618911/

[Qie Niangao]

Competence is a good attribute for a government… until success lulls it into complacency:

Complacency let COVID erode Taiwan's only line of defense (Stars and Stripes)

[Luna Bliss]

On 5/18/2021 at 10:30 AM, FairreLilette said:

On 5/18/2021 at 10:23 AM, Luna Bliss said:

I even plan to get vaccinated against pneumonia in a few months.

I have been wondering about this.  I have received the Pneumovax vaccine   I have been wondering why more people are not vaccinated with the Pneumovax vaccine?   

I think most people just focus on what they need to do to survive any particular day and think less about what might happen in the future.

Many are aversive to medical procedures and having their skin punctured.

Many don't have a relationship with a doctor -- it's too expensive in the U.S. The cost of this vaccine along with a doctor visit and possible cab fare to the office could be more than many spend on food for a month. So, priorities.

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

Just now, Qie Niangao said:

Competence is a good attribute for a government… until success lulls it into complacency:

Complacency let COVID erode Taiwan's only line of defense (Stars and Stripes)

So why bother doing anything, ever, right?  Even if you do something well, you'll eventually become complacent. So best not to even start.

[Aethelwine]

  

3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

No, it came from here:

Fact-Checking a “Fact-Checker”: A Response to HealthFeedback.org

Which was a response to this:

People have died from the coronavirus, contrary to article claiming to report pathologist’s “revelations” on COVID-19

Which was originally fact checking this:

“No one has died from the coronavirus”

 

 

 Yes she originally posted it on a Strong Conspiracy and Moderate Pseudoscience website that also promotes Russian propaganda. Ref

That is I suppose better than a site rated as "a Tin Foil Hat Conspiracy and Strong Pseudoscience website based on the promotion of unproven information such as the dangers of Vaccines and 9-11 as a false flag operation". Ref

She seems to have a lot of articles on Globalresearch and doesn't seem bothered they are reposting them, whether she profits from them being there or not she could have them removed if she wanted.

Whichever way you look at it her credibility is somewhere around zero.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Aethelwine

[Madelaine McMasters]

4 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I am wording it wrong I just know it..

I wish we had the first covid thread, then I could go back to what I'm referencing..

There were a couple of virologists explaining  in an interview about ebola and covid.. It may have been covid being a slower mutating virus than ebola..

I can't remember now and I hate that all the good information from the first thread is lost..

Searching for "ebola mutation rate", I find this...
https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/mutations.pdf

The gist of that report is that Ebola mutates as rapidly as other RNA viruses (faster than DNA viruses) but most mutations aren't viable so the viable mutation rate is low.

I do recall considerable worry during the 2014 outbreak that highly contagious variant would emerge. It didn't happen...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180412130805.htm

Searching for "covid-19 mutation rate", I find this...
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02544-6

"But sequencing data suggest that coronaviruses change more slowly than most other RNA viruses..."

It's not clear from that article whether they're talking about total mutation rate or viable mutation rate. There are several strains of Ebola and several of Covid-19, with case-mortality rate differences between strains that are significant but not shockingly so.

Finally, I Googled "Why didn't Ebola become a pandemic" and got this...
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-did-the-world-shut-down-for-covid-19-but-not-ebola-sars-or-swine-flu/

The takeaway from that is "Ebola: Very severe, but hard to contract". That's been my impression. It's not my impression that difference in mutation rates is a major factor, but I will keep an eye open for that idea.

[Qie Niangao]

26 minutes ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said:

So why bother doing anything, ever, right?  Even if you do something well, you'll eventually become complacent. So best not to even start.

Oh, Taiwan is still handling COVID, what?, four orders of magnitude better than the US, EU, UK, etc. But there should be some lesson to be gleaned from the experience of doubling their case count in a week, over a year into the pandemic. Preferably a lesson beyond avoiding hostess bars and airport hotels.

What happened, really, was that Taiwan was wildly successful with very rigid quarantine of new arrivals, then relaxed one aspect of that quarantine, and suddenly all hell broke loose because the whole rest of the country was wide open, unwittingly dependent on that specific strictness of quarantine. It's not that response to future pandemics should be sure to preserve that particular health measure, but rather to prepare for unknown vulnerabilities: Even when everything looks great, be ready to escalate testing on a moment's notice, and get the population vaccinated.

[Rowan Amore]

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Yes! And here is the study to prove it!

Vitamin D3 mixed with hydroxychloroquine shows promise in treating COVID-19: Study

and yours came from the Washington Examiner

The Washington Examiner is owned by Clarity Media Group, which is owned by Philip Anschutz, an American billionaire entrepreneur who describes himself as a “conservative Christian.” Anschutz is also the owner of the right-leaning Weekly Standard and has donated millions of dollars to right-leaning causes, including anti-LGBT groups, such as the Family Research Council, which has been labeled a hate group.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh, Taiwan is still handling COVID, what?, four orders of magnitude better than the US, EU, UK, etc. But there should be some lesson to be gleaned from the experience of doubling their case count in a week, over a year into the pandemic. Preferably a lesson beyond avoiding hostess bars and airport hotels.

What happened, really, was that Taiwan was wildly successful with very rigid quarantine of new arrivals, then relaxed one aspect of that quarantine, and suddenly all hell broke loose because the whole rest of the country was wide open, unwittingly dependent on that specific strictness of quarantine. It's not that response to future pandemics should be sure to preserve that particular health measure, but rather to prepare for unknown vulnerabilities: Even when everything looks great, be ready to escalate testing on a moment's notice, and get the population vaccinated.

I think one needs to be careful when comparing the Covid rates of some Asian countries with that of the ones in North America. Another poster a while back tried the same for the efficacy of masks as you are here for quarantines. Both the country the other mentioned (Japan) and Taiwan as well as Korea are significant in that obesity is not a big factor unlike the USA (and Canada to a lesser extent) where it is considered an epidemic in its own right. There are stats that point out 75%+ of people who wind up in hospital for Covid have a high BMI number. Additionally factor in the predominantly seafood, fresh vegetable and fruit diets in those countries and I suspect we will never have the same sort of covid rates even if we had of quarantined and masked to the same degree as they did. 

[PermaRuthed]

On 5/17/2021 at 12:53 PM, Madelaine McMasters said:

Every fall, there's a new flu vaccine available, targeted at the best guess for that year's predominant strain. Researchers are familiar with the influenza family of viruses and don't need to start from scratch every year. I haven't seen public hand-wringing over the speed of pushing out those yearly updates.

The same is true of coronaviruses. The research community had a long head start...

https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/public-health/how-decade-coronavirus-research-paved-way-covid-19-vaccines

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7371592/

Makes sense.

[Love Zhaoying]

26 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I think one needs to be careful when comparing the Covid rates of some Asian countries with that of the ones in North America.

Yes, comparisons without proper background, per capita comparisons, knowledge of difference across the populations, etc., may make comparisons inaccurate, irrelevant, or downright misleading. 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The gist of that report is that Ebola mutates as rapidly as other RNA viruses (faster than DNA viruses) but most mutations aren't viable so the viable mutation rate is low.

I do recall considerable worry during the 2014 outbreak that highly contagious variant would emerge. It didn't happen...

When it returns, the new name will be "iBola", as "e-things" went out of style years ago.

[Luna Bliss]

6 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Yes! And here is the study to prove it!

Vitamin D3 mixed with hydroxychloroquine shows promise in treating COVID-19: Study

As Rowan pointed out, this is in a right-wing rag. You've said before not to look at where it's published but to look at the study. I always do. I have never found a good study posted in a right-wing rag though, in fact it's almost a guarantee that the study will be bad when listed in these, or at the very least a study so small that we can't prove anything from the single study without lots of additional studies, yet you believe the study proves whatever you want it to prove.

As I said before...these types of experiments are there to point to areas where greater research should be undertaken.

Take a look at some of the reasons why that study from Spain is bad:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56180921

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh, Taiwan is still handling COVID, what?, four orders of magnitude better than the US, EU, UK, etc. But there should be some lesson to be gleaned from the experience of doubling their case count in a week, over a year into the pandemic. Preferably a lesson beyond avoiding hostess bars and airport hotels.

What happened, really, was that Taiwan was wildly successful with very rigid quarantine of new arrivals, then relaxed one aspect of that quarantine, and suddenly all hell broke loose because the whole rest of the country was wide open, unwittingly dependent on that specific strictness of quarantine. It's not that response to future pandemics should be sure to preserve that particular health measure, but rather to prepare for unknown vulnerabilities: Even when everything looks great, be ready to escalate testing on a moment's notice, and get the population vaccinated.

Expand  

I think one needs to be careful when comparing the Covid rates of some Asian countries with that of the ones in North America. Another poster a while back tried the same for the efficacy of masks as you are here for quarantines. Both the country the other mentioned (Japan) and Taiwan as well as Korea are significant in that obesity is not a big factor unlike the USA (and Canada to a lesser extent) where it is considered an epidemic in its own right. There are stats that point out 75%+ of people who wind up in hospital for Covid have a high BMI number. Additionally factor in the predominantly seafood, fresh vegetable and fruit diets in those countries and I suspect we will never have the same sort of covid rates even if we had of quarantined and masked to the same degree as they did.

If appropriate contact tracing is applied in the first place the virus won't spread, and so there won't be any fat people who encounter the virus.

Several countries achieved this early on, proving the efficacy of  contact tracing.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

If appropriate contact tracing is applied in the first place the virus won't spread, and so there won't be any fat people who encounter the virus.

Actually your whole testing tracing focus is not rational unless there is a therapy. Of what use is it to do all this testing and then simply tell someone 2 days later they have covid and need to isolate. Huge waste of manpower. If on the other hand there is a prescription or therapy one could start on after a positive diagnosis then ok but otherwise, it is just a waste of time and will not result in any lives saved.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If appropriate contact tracing is applied in the first place the virus won't spread, and so there won't be any fat people who encounter the virus.

Actually your whole testing tracing focus is not rational unless there is a therapy. Of what use is it to do all this testing and then simply tell someone 2 days later they have covid and need to isolate. Huge waste of manpower. If on the other hand there is a prescription or therapy one could start on after a positive diagnosis then ok but otherwise, it is just a waste of time and will not result in any lives saved.

The goal is to keep a pathogen from spreading to the larger community. If we isolate a sick or symptomatic individual and discover who they've come into contact with, and then isolate the contacts until we're sure they aren't ill, we stop the spread.  We have to do this early before significant spread has occurred. 

Several countries successfully achieved this, and there's no reason we can't be one of them. Many lives are saved this way.

[Arielle Popstar]

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The goal is to keep a pathogen from spreading to the larger community. If we isolate a sick or symptomatic individual and discover who they've come into contact with, and then isolate the contacts until we're sure they aren't ill, we stop the spread.  We have to do this early before significant spread has occurred. 

Several countries successfully achieved this, and there's no reason we can't be one of them. Many lives are saved this way.

You are forgetting the peaceful BML protests and the election gatherings. They would have made contact tracing impossible with the random people one would be running into. Sorry, but pie in the sky.

[Madelaine McMasters]

6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The goal is to keep a pathogen from spreading to the larger community. If we isolate a sick or symptomatic individual and discover who they've come into contact with, and then isolate the contacts until we're sure they aren't ill, we stop the spread.  We have to do this early before significant spread has occurred. 

Several countries successfully achieved this, and there's no reason we can't be one of them. Many lives are saved this way.

You are forgetting the peaceful BML protests and the election gatherings. They would have made contact tracing impossible with the random people one would be running into. Sorry, but pie in the sky.

Though Luna's rationale for contact tracing and isolation is quite correct, I do take your point that the some cultures potentially make this a pie in the sky goal. I think that argues for working to change the culture, too.