covid Why Did It Take So Long to Accept the Facts About Covid?

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The solutions presented in your linked paper suggest nothing that was not already done but just posits it should have been done faster. It is this focus on a vaccine solution where the WHO, CDC, FDA and all the other health governing bodies went off the rails. Probably because Big Pharma and the health industry is corrupt all the way through and looked how to best profit from the pandemic rather than nip it in the bud with a broad spectrum anti-viral agent or treatment. Something of that nature is the only real solution to another potential pandemic because even with these mRNA's there is still a lead time to develop a specific one for a virus and then the logistics of testing, manufacture, distribution for a worldwide roll out vs an on hand anti-viral pill distributed to those who start to display symptoms.

The problem with this Covid 19 virus is not the virus itself but the response over it.

They mention the development of therapeutics on page 63, so it's not true that they only focus on vaccines. Again on page 77 (#10 - Therapeutics).
Plus, there are many labs that have been working on viral treatments for decades.
Following are the evidence-based therapeutics for Covid according to the AMA:
https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/public-health/covid-19-therapeutics-what-evidence-shows

I can't imagine why you would think it's better to treat a virus than to simply prevent it from spreading in the first place though! Or why you even make the issue into an 'either-or' dilemma -- I mean...can't it be both...can't we use both vaccines and therapeutics?

You disparage the time lag in vaccine development? The time-lag for vaccine development is no worse than the time-lag would be for any sort of therapeutic developed to treat a specific virus though, and while it's possible there could be a broad-spectrum treatment better than some we have for a few viruses today it's pretty far-fetched to think there will be one solution to treat all viruses.
You also have to consider the resistance that is developed to broad-spectrum anti-virals (the same as we see with bacteria and antibiotics where we soon might not have any viable antibiotics at all!).

Really, your faith and insistence in some sort of pie-in-the-sky natural treatment is worse than Big Pharma pushing its drugs unnecessarily.

Just because there is corruption in health agencies does not mean everything they do is corrupt! There is corruption and error in all human endeavors but we don't toss them all out because of it.
It's your usual black-and-white thinking where 'some' equals 'all' I see on display yet again, and your belief that perfection must exist in human endeavors lest we should throw it all out (and then replace with bizarre 'maverick' solutions from right-wing rags).

If you want to see real mavericks in action then read the article I posted in the vaccination thread referencing the dedicated, amazing Scientists who discovered the mRNA technology used for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/redemption-one-scientists-unwavering-belief-mrna-gave-world/

[FairreLilette]

5 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I see nothing in the two articles you referenced claiming that WHO is exclusively to blame, nor do I see the scapegoating you are exhibiting here within the new independent panel referenced by these articles which describe what went wrong and proposing solutions for the future. It's a long read but worth it:

COVID-19: Make it the Last Pandemic (theindependentpanel.org)

Yes, the article did...right here.  Plus, there are other articles out now.  

The WHO should have declared a global emergency earlier than it did, its report said, adding that without urgent change the world was vulnerable to another major disease outbreak.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-57085505

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

Yes, the article did...right here.  Plus, there are other articles out now.  

The WHO should have declared a global emergency earlier than it did, its report said, adding that without urgent change the world was vulnerable to another major disease outbreak.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-57085505

Not exclusively.

combined response of the WHO and global governments was a "toxic cocktail".

[FairreLilette]

There was a new article out this morning about the coronaviruses, the first one and then this one, the current pandemic, and whether the transmission was through animals in the wet market or if the latest COVID SARS-2 was created in a laboratory accidentally.  The thing is, that's preposterous.  Because 1) the ORIGINAL SARS was deemed to be from the wet market.  So, if SARS-2 was accidentally created in a laboratory it still came from SARS-1 the original from the wet market.  So, either way it came from a wet market even if the 2nd one mutated in a laboratory.  

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/did-the-coronavirus-come-directly-from-animals-or-was-it-released-from-a-lab-top-american-scientists-join-call-for-answers/ar-BB1gJ2IO?li=BBnb7Kz

Edited May 14, 2021 by FairreLilette

[FairreLilette]

26 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Not exclusively.

combined response of the WHO and global governments was a "toxic cocktail".

I'm not sure of what all the governments did as too many involved, but the WHO blame is directed at the WHO in the second sentence in the article with the copy/paste below.  However, from posters in this thread, some countries left "WHO" and decided to act on their own closing their borders way before others, etc.  The WHO was the one who knew about the original SARS how could they not know about how quickly these zoonotic viruses spread?  The organization needs an overhaul badly.  The WHO only declared it an international emergency.  It was their call.  I don't think the blame is out of order on my part.

The WHO should have declared a global emergency earlier than it did, its report said, adding that without urgent change the world was vulnerable to another major disease outbreak.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-57085505

AND THEN THIS:

The panel argued that the WHO's Emergency Committee should have declared the outbreak in China an international emergency a week earlier than it did.

 

It should have done so at its first meeting on 22 January last year, the report said, instead of waiting until 30 January.

The month following the WHO's declaration was "lost" as countries failed to take appropriate measures to halt the spread of the virus.

The WHO was then hindered by its own regulations that travel restrictions should be a last resort, the panel said, adding that Europe and the US wasted the entire month of February and acted only when their hospitals began to fill up.

[Nalates Urriah]

Or... take an irreverent look at the establishment...

 

[Finite]

15 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Or... take an irreverent look at the establishment...

 

Damn that Little Debbie...

[Luna Bliss]

17 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

but the WHO blame is directed at the WHO in the second sentence in the article with the copy/paste below.

Rule number one in research -- go to the source if possible. Fortunately in the problem we're trying to solve (what went wrong in the pandemic response) the source is mentioned and readily available in both articles you cited:
  https://theindependentpanel.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/COVID-19-Make-it-the-Last-Pandemic_final.pdf

The articles you cite were written by people who interpreted the source material, so best to go to the source and evaluate yourself (The Independent Panel link above), weighing the author's 'spin' or interpretation, yes, (considering it), but it's not wise to trust their interpretation (or what they choose to include or leave out) in a lengthy report wholly.
(btw, the articles you cite are pretty much labeled as the 'liberal media' so I would like our conservative forum members to note that I apply the same level of scrutiny to liberal media as I do to conservative media).

Anyway, if you read the very lengthy report from The Independent Panel you will see that it's very short-sighted to blame the WHO exclusively for failures -- shortcomings are evident in many organizations and we need to address all of them if we want the best chance of avoiding dire outcomes in future pandemics.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

Interesting documentary on who is to blame or how to stop the next pandemic:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/01/video/coronavirus-pandemics-causes.html

[Phil Deakins]

30 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Anyway, if you read the very lengthy report from The Independent Panel you will see that it's very short-sighted to blame the WHO exclusively for failures -- shortcomings are evident in many organizations and we need to address all of them if we want the best chance of avoiding dire outcomes in future pandemics.

Nobody here suggested that the WHO were solely responsible for the slow take-up. And, if my memory is correct, you'll find that the Independent Panel's report was specifically reporting on the WHO, so it would not add other organisations short-comings.

"Rule number one in research" - know what it is you are commenting on

Edited May 15, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

Nobody here suggested that the WHO were solely responsible for the slow take-up. And I think you'll find that the Independent Panel's report was specifically reporting on the WHO, so it would not add other organisations short-comings.

It's apparent you have not read this thread or the Independent Panel report.

[Phil Deakins]

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's apparent you have not read this thread or the Independent Panel report.

I think I've read enough. Wasn't the Independant Panel set up the the WHO to report on how it handled the thing? I did say "if my memory is correct" and that's what my memory is saying.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Luna Bliss]

From The Independent Panel report:

"Seized by the gravity of the crisis, in May 2020 the World Health Assembly requested the Director-General of WHO to initiate an impartial, independent, and comprehensive review of the international health response to COVID-19 and of experiences gained and lessons learned from that, and to make recommendations to improve capacities for the future. The Director-General asked H.E. Ellen Johnson Sirleaf and the Rt Hon. Helen Clark to convene an independent panel for this purpose and to report to the World Health Assembly in May 2021".

"The Panel has taken a systematic, rigorous and comprehensive approach to its work. It has sought to listen to and learn from a wide range of interlocutors. Since mid-September 2020, the Panel has reviewed extensive literature, conducted original research, heard from experts in 15 round-table discussions and in interviews, received the testimony of people working on the front lines of the pandemic in town-hall-style meetings, and welcomed many submissions from its open invitation to contribute.

The Panel has examined the state of pandemic preparedness prior to COVID-19, the circumstances of the identification of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and the disease it causes, coronavirus disease (COVID-19), and responses globally, regionally and nationally, particularly in the pandemic’s early months. It has also analysed the wide-ranging impact of the pandemic and the ongoing social and economic crisis that it has precipitated".

Edited May 15, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Jackson Redstar]

On 5/13/2021 at 6:47 PM, FairreLilette said:

I'm not so sure that has been completely debunked.   Blood is very, very dangerous.  Poaching of exotic animals or game is a status symbol in parts of Asia for the wealthy and Asian's mostly only eat fresh meat from what I've heard.  Asian's usually pick out their meat alive.

https://www.google.com/search?q=when+did+sars+start&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS784US784&sxsrf=ALeKk0284iUyVza0V6k9j8jIytokdLDuIw%3A1620945886638&ei=3qudYPCsJtTa9APc66zoBA&oq=when+did+sars+start&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgUIABCGAzIFCAAQhgM6BwgAEEcQsAM6BAgjECc6BggAEBYQHjoFCAAQyQM6BQgAEJIDOggIABCxAxCDAToFCAAQsQM6EAgAELEDEIMBEIsDEEYQ-wE6CAgAEMkDEIsDOgUIABCLAzoICAAQsQMQiwNQyUNY4Gpgym5oA3ACeACAAXqIAeUUkgEENy4xOJgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrIAQi4AQLAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjwk5f-3cfwAhVULX0KHdw1C00Q4dUDCA4&uact=5

How long have coronviruses existed for?

Coronaviruses are found in a diverse array of bat and bird species, which are believed to act as natural hosts. Molecular clock dating analyses of coronaviruses suggest that the most recent common ancestor of these viruses existed around 10,000 years ago.

WHO is practically an arm of the Chinese government. ya really think they would rock the boat by saying the Chinese accidently let it out of a virus lab. you don't bite the hand that is feeding you money

[Qie Niangao]

8 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

WHO is practically an arm of the Chinese government. ya really think they would rock the boat by saying the Chinese accidently let it out of a virus lab. you don't bite the hand that is feeding you money

Remember who used to feed them money. Then suddenly it became "patriotic" to attack the WHO (long before the pandemic) because the Former Guy said so.

If you're worried about the WHO, imagine what they're buying with the Belt and Road Initiative. Meanwhile even paltry USAID could barely get funding thru Congress. If the America First party ever takes power again, the US better get used to being an also-ran has-been.

Anyway, it's pathetic there's so much attention being paid to utterly unknowable speculation about the virus' origin. As if it actually mattered. Even if it somehow escaped from Gain Of Function research, there's a reason why that research is funded: it's only a matter of a brief time before those functions are acquired naturally (which is most likely what happened with SARS-COV2, inasmuch as it happens constantly in nature, especially when humans bring mutually exotic ecosystems into close proximity).

It would be more productive to instead focus on a more effective, rational response to the inevitable next pandemic. Maybe, for incentive, a more complete assessment of the current death toll of COVID-19:

[Arielle Popstar]

27 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Anyway, it's pathetic there's so much attention being paid to utterly unknowable speculation about the virus' origin. As if it actually mattered. Even if it somehow escaped from Gain Of Function research, there's a reason why that research is funded: it's only a matter of a brief time before those functions are acquired naturally (which is most likely what happened with SARS-COV2, inasmuch as it happens constantly in nature, especially when humans bring mutually exotic ecosystems into close proximity).

Of course it matters where it came from. Gain of function research speeds up the natural process to a much greater degree and is focused on being more infectious as well as cause much greater harm to the intended hosts then would happen through a natural evolution. The potential for accidental release is much too great to allow this sort of research to be going on which is maybe why the NIH had previously stopped funding it until Fauci found a loophole to continue it in Wuhan. We are all paying for that. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

 

Where do viruses come from?

Quote

However, some ancient viruses have been detected in permafrost in Siberia, and there are hopes of discovering more as global warming continues to thaw ground that has been frozen for thousands of years. Until then, we remain limited in our ability to precisely reconstruct the origin of viruses.

https://theconversation.com/viruses-can-cause-global-pandemics-but-where-did-the-first-virus-come-from-94551

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/the-origins-of-viruses-14398218/

Edited May 15, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[Luna Bliss]

3 hours ago, Jackson Redstar said:

WHO is practically an arm of the Chinese government. ya really think they would rock the boat by saying the Chinese accidently let it out of a virus lab. you don't bite the hand that is feeding you money

What proof do you have that WHO is an arm of the Chinese government. I know Trump touted that.
The WHO is funded from multiple sources, and many contribute more than China does, and so you really can't use this as a reason why WHO would side with China.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/04/who-funds-world-health-organization-un-coronavirus-pandemic-covid-trump/

Besides, the director of WHO, Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesu, has never even denied lab leakage as a possibility, and so your theory of WHO being in bed with China and protecting them makes no sense. Here's his statement on March 30:

"The team also visited several laboratories in Wuhan and considered the possibility that the virus entered the human population as a result of a laboratory incident.

However, I do not believe that this assessment was extensive enough. Further data and studies will be needed to reach more robust conclusions.

Although the team has concluded that a laboratory leak is the least likely hypothesis, this requires further investigation, potentially with additional missions involving specialist experts, which I am ready to deploy.

We will keep you informed as plans progress, and as always, we very much welcome your input.

Let me say clearly that as far as WHO is concerned all hypotheses remain on the table."

https://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-remarks-at-the-member-state-briefing-on-the-report-of-the-international-team-studying-the-origins-of-sars-cov-2

Edited May 15, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[FairreLilette]

4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

"The team also visited several laboratories in Wuhan and considered the possibility that the virus entered the human population as a result of a laboratory incident.

However, I do not believe that this assessment was extensive enough. Further data and studies will be needed to reach more robust conclusions.

Although the team has concluded that a laboratory leak is the least likely hypothesis, this requires further investigation, potentially with additional missions involving specialist experts, which I am ready to deploy

Logically it isn't such a remote hypothesis IF one adds in laboratory animals who became "the intermediate" hosts as opposed to it happening in a wet market where there are the intermediate hosts - the animals.  However, the WHO doesn't explain this and the reporting all around has been pretty shoddy for well over a year.  

Either way the virus came from the original SARS not out of nothing or outer space (not that you said that last part - I'm just adding it in for others who think the virus just developed out of nothing - it did not, it would have mutated from SARS 1 but whether it did that in a laboratory or in nature was that even explained in any news reports?)  I've not read one.  I came up with my own hypothesis regarding the laboratory and testing on animals.  Many animals in laboratories are sickly, caged up, no sun, no exercise, in those conditions, the animals ARE going to BECOME sickly.  I just don't know what they were thinking 'if' they did this.  

Edited May 16, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Chroma Starlight]

Quote

Nurses’ Union Is “Outraged” With the CDC’s Relaxed Masking Guidance

“We are still in the midst of the deadliest pandemic in a century.”
DAN SPINELLI, Mother Jones, DC Bureao. 2021-05-16

“This newest CDC guidance is not based on science, does not protect public health, and threatens the lives of patients, nurses, and other frontline workers across the country,” NNU Executive Director Bonnie Castillo said. “Now is not the time to relax protective measures, and we are outraged that the CDC has done just that while we are still in the midst of the deadliest pandemic in a century.”

https://www.motherjones.com/mojo-wire/2021/05/nurses-union-is-outraged-with-the-cdcs-relaxed-masking-guidance/

Edited May 16, 2021 by Chroma Starlight

[Theresa Tennyson]

18 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Either way the virus came from the original SARS not out of nothing or outer space (not that you said that last part - I'm just adding it in for others who think the virus just developed out of nothing - it did not, it would have mutated from SARS 1 but whether it did that in a laboratory or in nature was that even explained in any news reports?)  I've not read one.  I came up with my own hypothesis regarding the laboratory and testing on animals.  Many animals in laboratories are sickly, caged up, no sun, no exercise, in those conditions, the animals ARE going to BECOME sickly.  I just don't know what they were thinking 'if' they did this.  

Surprisingly enough, virus evolution cares not a ding-donged thing about the number and order of letters and numbers in their common description:

https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/understanding-evolution-sars-and-covid-19-type-viruses

[Qie Niangao]

The CDC guidance came as a surprise to me—and apparently to the White House—but I've come around to realize it is the best incentive for getting vaccinated the CDC could possibly create.

Sure, there's some motivation to get vaccinated just to avoid having to wear a mask (even though at this point mask-wearing seems barely an inconvenience, and the "liberation" of not wearing a mask seems overblown beyond credibility).

Much bigger, though, is the massive threat this poses to anybody who's not fully vaccinated. At this point, if you aren't vaccinated and aren't wearing a full-blown N95 respirator, you will get COVID if you do things that previously were safe around unmasked people some share of whom aren't really vaccinated. Fear is a very powerful motivator: Get vaccinated or get COVID.

This obviously can't work in Canada yet, where we're still starved for vaccine*, but in the US where apparently anybody who wants can pick and choose their favourite flavour of jab, it's kinda genius. Just a little more calculating than I'd expect from the CDC.

_____________
* and yet our public health authorities are now letting perfectly good AstraZeneca vaccine expire on the shelf because VITT scares them from using it for first doses and they can't allow those with AZ first doses to use the soon-to-expire vaccine for a second jab because they set a four month inter-dose interval for the general population based on no evidence whatsoever.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

It'd pretty sad that people have to be motivated with beer and other material incentives to get vaccinated. Apparently, 'protect the vulnerable' isn't cutting it. I guess, patriotism isn't for everyone.

[LittleMe Jewell]

44 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

(even though at this point mask-wearing seems barely an inconvenience, and the "liberation" of not wearing a mask seems overblown beyond credibility)

Not for those of us with breathing issues.  Part of the reason I have isolated so much during this thing is because the mask does make breathing more difficult and even sometimes invokes smothering-related panic attacks.  Even with a doctor's note, it is just a hassle because everyone still yells at you (or physically accosts you) about wearing a mask.  So I just wear as thin of a mask as I can get away with and make my outings as short as possible.  Thus I have truly done a happy-dance at the CDC statement, that has migrated down to my state & county level.  All I have to deal with now are the businesses themselves that still want masks worn and I'm crossing my fingers that even that will go away very soon.

[Qie Niangao]

1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

All I have to deal with now are the businesses themselves that still want masks worn and I'm crossing my fingers that even that will go away very soon.

Seems pretty likely, although if I were running an airline or a dine-in restaurant, I'd be begging for vaccine passports first. Won't happen because it's politically unpalatable, but restrictions are being relaxed far sooner than can be justified by the infection rates, especially in these settings with high risk of maskless transmission. Unless vaccinations quickly close in on 80% of the population, this could be pretty tragic again. (But again I think anybody still unvaccinated with a lick of sense about what it means to be surrounded by maskless people during a pandemic are already in line for the next jab.)