what is going with the belleza bodies?

[Veronica Blackwood]

I'd just wanna know, I'm hardly seeing any new clothes for those bodies and i'm wondering why.

[Rowan Amore]

12 minutes ago, Christine1099 said:

I'd just wanna know, I'm hardly seeing any new clothes for those bodies and i'm wondering why.

The creator seems to have abandoned the bodies.  They haven't updated in 2 years?  Not even to add the BOM function.  Creators probably don't feel it's worth their time if less people will be using it.

[Orwar]

   Slipping into obsolescence due to lack of updates to stay up to snuff. 

[Veronica Blackwood]

oh, that's sad

 

[Gabriele Graves]

I would imagine the main reason why is that Belleza haven't updated their body in a very long time.  Since well before BoM was released in fact.  Even though there is a BoM activator it doesn't give the full support for it as other bodies do.  This isn't the first time that updates were very much later than other popular bodies for newly released technologies.  Bento took them over a year later than other body creators to release an update for.  In addition to this it doesn't support the universal neck join that popular head makers are using and which was standardized by Lelutka which makes fitting new heads well almost impossible.

Though for a long time the lack of updates didn't seem to impact much on clothing makers support for it, as it has been a much loved body, now that quite a few other bodies have sprung up and it is difficult to support them all and so hard choices often have to be made as to which ones are worth continuing with support for.  A continuing lack of updates from the body creator is most likely seen as an indication that they have lost interest.  Most likely existing customers are also frustrated by this and have started to migrate to other comparable bodies.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[Paul Hexem]

3 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

other comparable bodies

I got a lady friend that's in that boat- fed up by the faltering support, but can't find a body with a shape she likes as much. Spent a couple hours the other day with that new one with the butt, but couldn't scale it down small enough for her liking.

[Lucia Nightfire]

From my own head & body stats data(which I'll release once I feel I have a satisfactory "chunk" of data), I see many Belleza - Freya owners moving to either Meshbody - Legacy Female or to Inithium - Kupra and some moving to Maitreya - Lara. I see many Belleza - Jake owners moving to either Meshbody - Legacy Male, Meshbody - Legacy Male Athletic or Signature - Gianni and some moving to Maitreya - Lara + V-Tech - Boi Chest. I'm not kidding on that last one.

Along with worn head, body, mod counts, I also track worn head, body mod changes.

[Tazzie Tuque]

Personally I have all three Belleza bodies, and my preferred one was Isis,  but I also have Maitreya,  but it has been ages since I used the Belleza one, as it just has not kept up with what is going on with bodies in SL where as Maitreya has so that is my body of choice and has been for a long time.  Some of the others are very nice like Signature Alice and Altamura and even Legacy (both)  but until recently it was harder to get clothing for those,  and honestly I can't see spending a ton of lindens on different bodies when  I might like one particular aspect of each, over another but not enough to spend the big bucks for.

I also enjoy using  pre made mesh templates for clothes (like a blank canvas to create on),  and I have noticed big changes there in what is offered.   Basically I think Belleza is being phased out, with only Freya being made now, along with Maitreya, Legacy (and sometimes Perky), and now this new Kupra one, sometimes Tonic is still there and sometimes eBODY Curvy,  and Signature Alice, Altamura.  It seems to be a mixed bag depending on what the mesh creator prefers.  And with all the bodies out there I can well imagine the time it takes to rig for all of them, so most are picking a few to put out and I don't blame them.  So I fear Belleza is being phased out.

[Veronica Blackwood]

4 minutes ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

Personally I have all three Belleza bodies, and my preferred one was Isis,  but I also have Maitreya,  but it has been ages since I used the Belleza one, as it just has not kept up with what is going on with bodies in SL where as Maitreya has so that is my body of choice and has been for a long time.  Some of the others are very nice like Signature Alice and Altamura and even Legacy (both)  but until recently it was harder to get clothing for those,  and honestly I can't see spending a ton of lindens on different bodies when  I might like one particular aspect of each, over another but not enough to spend the big bucks for.

I also enjoy using  pre made mesh templates for clothes (like a blank canvas to create on),  and I have noticed big changes there in what is offered.   Basically I think Belleza is being phased out, with only Freya being made now, along with Maitreya, Legacy (and sometimes Perky), and now this new Kupra one, sometimes Tonic is still there and sometimes eBODY Curvy,  and Signature Alice, Altamura.  It seems to be a mixed bag depending on what the mesh creator prefers.  And with all the bodies out there I can well imagine the time it takes to rig for all of them, so most are picking a few to put out and I don't blame them.  So I fear Belleza is being phased out.

oh no!, i hope freya can come back after the update...

[Fenimore Hapmouche]

What am I missing out on with regard to BOM by using Jake and that activator thingy?

It seemed to do what it said it would do and I am using BOM things fine, but I am a simple man with simple needs.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

Update? Hah, cute.

 

Anyway. The clothing makers on the male side: "We cannot possibly support more than two bodies! Think of the rigging! Insaaaaane! We are now supporting Legacy and Belleza Jake." 🤪

 

5 minutes ago, Fenimore Hapmouche said:

What am I missing out on with regard to BOM by using Jake and that activator thingy?

Over a year ago, Belleza had the incredible luck that some third party made a BOM HUD for them. So they've been using that third party tool ever since to have something like BOM support. No alphas, though, but who cares, BOM.

Now there's that thing named Universal Neck.. or witchcraft, you might say, or something equal. It's too absurd, so Belleza doesn't support it and you gotta live with a pretty obvious neck seam with newer heads, because they cannot be bothered to come up with an update.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Lillith Hapmouche

[Gabriele Graves]

11 minutes ago, Fenimore Hapmouche said:

What am I missing out on with regard to BOM by using Jake and that activator thingy?

It seemed to do what it said it would do and I am using BOM things fine, but I am a simple man with simple needs.

Not a huge amount, the basics work.  However I am pretty sure that wearing alpha layers doesn't work that way, it requires support adding from Belleza.

One of the bodies has opted to remove HUD alpha cuts altogether in favour of alpha layers only which makes it possible for the body to be one piece and less complex.
So there is the possibility of optimization of the body when adding BoM support.  Having the activation for BoM on by default with a HUD button is another minor thing but helps people new to BoM get there faster.

Also some other bodies have some BoM bits and pieces as addons that can smooth over certain body parts so that system clothing doesn't look as painted on.

Mostly those kinds of things.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[Lillith Hapmouche]

Now wear the Jake body and a LeLutka Evo head...

[Rowan Amore]

19 minutes ago, Fenimore Hapmouche said:

What am I missing out on with regard to BOM by using Jake and that activator thingy?

It seemed to do what it said it would do and I am using BOM things fine, but I am a simple man with simple needs.

This

https://virtualbloke.com/archives/4436

[Marianne Little]

47 minutes ago, Fenimore Hapmouche said:

What am I missing out on with regard to BOM by using Jake and that activator thingy?

It seemed to do what it said it would do and I am using BOM things fine, but I am a simple man with simple needs.

I have it on a male alt, but I stopped because of the neck, but also because of the splayed hands that you don't see yourself. But after I logged in on two viewers and saw the hands looked fine for the avatar with the Jake body, where the other (me) saw splayed hands, I am not letting the poor alt out in SL with splayed hands! 😡

[Finite]

7 hours ago, Christine1099 said:

I'd just wanna know, I'm hardly seeing any new clothes for those bodies and i'm wondering why.

 

I haven't noticed any shortage of clothes or skins for Jake. I am not sure about their female body as I use Maitreya. In fact I just bought Jake for my 2nd male a few days ago. And have 2 more avies that need bodies that I will likely get Jake for. Have had it on my initial male avie for a year now. The other one has Signature and Slink also and I find Jake to be the best of the three. He's had Sig and Slink since like 2017.

Most of the higher end creators make newly released clothes for Sig Legacy and Jake for males and Legacy and Maitreya for females. So it could be just where you're shopping. I would suggest maybe attending a shopping event or two to get a sense of what's new. There's a free Grid-Affairs hud floating around that will let you know what events are going on. Feel free to IM me if you can't find it. I can send you a copy. The marketplace is only good when you are looking for something specific and even then it's hard to tell if its a new item you are looking at unless you check the reviews. I commonly see new players give bad reviews in 2020 or 2021 for products with reviews on them from 2011.

 

1 hour ago, Fenimore Hapmouche said:

What am I missing out on with regard to BOM by using Jake and that activator thingy?

It seemed to do what it said it would do and I am using BOM things fine, but I am a simple man with simple needs.

No idea. I haven't had any issues using BoM with my Jake bods. Even the neck issue seems over exaggerated.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Finite

[Orwar]

1 hour ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

No alphas, though, but who cares, BOM.

   Alphas muss sein!

   I abhor the alpha HUD pies. Can't wait for the updates of Signature and Maitreya when they do away with it and lighten up the texture and script use of the HUDs. 

[Gabriele Graves]

1 minute ago, Orwar said:

   Alphas muss sein!

   I abhor the alpha HUD pies. Can't wait for the updates of Signature and Maitreya when they do away with it and lighten up the texture and script use of the HUDs. 

I would have expected them to do it at the outset of their BoM implementation if they were going to.  To be honest I would be super glad if they don't.  I understand why some people want it and am fully aware that it brings some benefits but the convenience of the simple alpha cuts outweighs those things for me.  I suspect many people are the same and that is why Maitreya decided not to go with it at BoM release.  I have made my own alphas so it isn't an academic point of view either and there is no way anyone can argue that it is as simple as a few clicks.

[Gabriele Graves]

I think that the alpha use of male bodies vs. female bodies is often very much different.  For my own choice of clothing at least, the alpha cuts vary a lot in virtually every part of the body.  This is due to the many varied types of clothing cuts that I have.  A lot of the men's clothing styles don't seem to need anywhere near as many varied cuts as we do.  Sure, that is an outrageous generalisation and I am sure someone will pop up with the odd piece of clothing that shows this isn't always true.  However, I think it is the common case.  Obviously if a woman tends to wear mostly pants and sweaters or jumpsuits and keeps much of their body covered then that would be a more similar comparison.  I am not one of those women.

So the point of that was to show that it is understandable that men using a man's body particularly want it simpler and more optimised, because it can be much simpler for them.  There is no reason why a male only body creator shouldn't consider this in my opinion.  Where it gets murky is when bodies are used by people of both genders for both types of clothing of course, you cannot suit both types of user except by supporting both ways.

For a lot of us who use a female body with female style clothing, the cuts aren't simple and anything that makes it simpler is a boon.  HUD cuts is simple.  Adding an alpha layer is simpler but only if the designer does a good job where they cut.  That where being simple stops for my own use case and those like me.  Of the ones I have seen, they alpha too much in general when not necessary and I can understand their caution but often it doesn't suit what I need.  If the designer does a bad job/is overly cautious then you are hosed unless you can make them yourself easily.  Many cannot and so the HUD cuts give them some control and means they may still buy the outfit.  Which is what designers want too.

Even now from my own purchasing I can see that many major female clothing brands haven't even bothered to attempt to do alpha layers with their outfits.  So I can see alpha cuts being around for a long time as a consequence.
 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[Finite]

13 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I think that the alpha use of male bodies vs. female bodies is often very much different.  For my own choice of clothing at least, the alpha cuts vary a lot in virtually every part of the body.  This is due to the many varied types of clothing cuts that I have.  A lot of the men's clothing styles don't seem to need anywhere near as many varied cuts as we do.  Sure, that is an outrageous generalisation and I am sure someone will pop up with the odd piece of clothing that shows this isn't always true.  However, I think it is the common case.  Obviously if a woman tends to wear mostly pants and sweaters or jumpsuits and keeps much of their body covered then that would be a more similar comparison.  I am not one of those women.

So the point of that was to show that it is understandable that men using a man's body particularly want it simpler and more optimised, because it can be much simpler for them.  There is no reason why a male only body creator shouldn't consider this in my opinion.  Where it gets murky is when bodies are used by people of both genders for both types of clothing of course, you cannot suit both types of user except by supporting both ways.

For a lot of us who use a female body with female style clothing, the cuts aren't simple and anything that makes it simpler is a boon.  HUD cuts is simple.  Adding an alpha layer is simpler but only if the designer does a good job where they cut.  That where being simple stops for my own use case and those like me.  Of the ones I have seen, they alpha too much in general when not necessary and I can understand their caution but often it doesn't suit what I need.  If the designer does a bad job/is overly cautious then you are hosed unless you can make them yourself easily.  Many cannot and so the HUD cuts give them some control and means they may still buy the outfit.  Which is what designers want too.

Even now from my own purchasing I can see that many major female clothing brands haven't even bothered to attempt to do alpha layers with their outfits.  So I can see alpha cuts being around for a long time as a consequence.
 

If something is rigged well I don't see the use for an alpha layer. I don't think it should be up to the body creator to account for poor rigs. Whoever made the clothes should supply the alpha layer if one is needed. I haven't ran into an issue where I thought an alpha layer would be the solution. So it's possible I'm just not understanding what you are proposing.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Finite

[Gabriele Graves]

25 minutes ago, Finite said:

If something is rigged well I don't see the use for an alpha layer.

Well sadly that isn't true in a great many cases and cannot be so for some types of clothing.

Quote

I don't think it should be up to the body creator to account for poor rigs.

The bodies under discussion were the ones who already provide alpha cuts on the HUD and my post is to highlight why male/female bodies and clothings can vastly differ in their requirements.

Quote

Whoever made the clothes should supply the alpha layer if one is needed.

If one is supplied, it should definitely come from the clothing creator.  However, the "if one is needed" part is where it comes unravelled and exactly how it should be cut is often debatable as per my last post.

Quote

I haven't ran into an issue where I thought an alpha layer would be the solution.

I think that you are probably in a small minority then.

Quote

So it's possible I'm just not understanding what you are proposing.

I am not proposing anything, my post was an attempt try to highlight why the different use cases cannot all be fulfilled with the same solution for all.  One end of the spectrum of use cases is much more complex than the other potentially.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Well sadly that isn't true in a great many cases and cannot be so for some types of clothing.

The bodies under discussion were the ones who already provide alpha cuts on the HUD and my post is to highlight why male/female bodies and clothings can vastly differ in their requirements.

If one is supplied, it should definitely come from the clothing creator.  However, the "if one is needed" part is where it comes unravelled and exactly how it should be cut is often debatable as per my last post.

I think that you are probably in a small minority then.

I am not proposing anything, my post was an attempt try to highlight why the different use cases cannot all be fulfilled with the same solution for all.  One end of the spectrum of use cases is much more complex than the other potentially.

I agree 100%.  Sometimes, it's something small such as an elbow poking out with my stand.  Even if I were so inclined to actually follow a tutorial on making an alpha, I sure wouldn't for an area so small.  I'd just use the HUD and alpha out one tiny section.

Totally removing that option with the bodies will only make it that much more difficult for new users.  As has been mentioned before, even if creators include an alpha, it's not always done correctly.  

[Finite]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

I agree 100%.  Sometimes, it's something small such as an elbow poking out with my stand.  Even if I were so inclined to actually follow a tutorial on making an alpha, I sure wouldn't for an area so small.  I'd just use the HUD and alpha out one tiny section.

Totally removing that option with the bodies will only make it that much more difficult for new users.  As has been mentioned before, even if creators include an alpha, it's not always done correctly.  

Oh then i think I am misunderstanding since I thought it was something more complicated than hiding elbows since the huds already do touchups like that. They are removing alpha's in huds?

[Finite]

4 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

 

I think that you are probably in a small minority then.

 

Could you describe a situation where an alpha layer would be needed? I assuming you mean an alpha texture for the system layer that used to be included with some outfits prior to auto-hiders. It seems like a very niche situation for some things that weren't necessarily rigged or designed properly for the body. 

[Rowan Amore]

13 minutes ago, Finite said:

Oh then i think I am misunderstanding since I thought it was something more complicated than hiding elbows since the huds already do touchups like that. They are removing alpha's in huds?

I hope they don't remove the alpha option in the huds.  @Orwarhad mentioned hoping they did away with it in a future update.