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what is going with the belleza bodies?


Veronica Blackwood
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1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

I hope they don't remove the alpha option in the huds.  @Orwarhad mentioned hoping they did away with it in a future update.  

Haha yes I just scrolled up and saw that. Hell no don't do away with those lol. That would like totally standardize all clothes for those bodies and limit any sort of customization or personalization.

Edited by Finite
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2 minutes ago, Finite said:

Could you describe a situation where an alpha layer would be needed? I assuming you mean an alpha texture for the system layer that used to be included with some outfits prior to auto-hiders. It seems like a very niche situation for some things that weren't necessarily rigged or designed properly for the body. 

I am talking about the system layer assets which are called alpha masks, most people in the circles I frequent just call them alpha layers.  If you right-click into a folder in your inventory and choose New Clothes->New Alpha Mask, those are the assets I am talking about.  I didn't realise you didn't know what I mean by that.  I am not asking for textures to be included with outfits at all.

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1 minute ago, Finite said:

Haha yes I just scrolled up and saw that. Hell no don't do away with those lol. That would like totally standardize all clothes for those bodies and limit any sort of customization or personalization.

In a perfect world, all clothing made for a specific body would fit exactly in every situation.  Some creators do a better job than others.  But that's not the case.  Some use auto hide, some now will include an alpha and others, although the fit is near perfect, something might poke out.  That's when I like the alpha HUD option.  One creator does great except some items, the nips show.  An easy fix with the alpha HUD.

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Just now, Gabriele Graves said:

I am talking about the system layer assets which are called alpha masks, most people in the circles I frequent just call them alpha layers.  If you right-click into a folder in your inventory and choose New Clothes->New Alpha Mask, those are the assets I am talking about.  I didn't realise you didn't know what I mean by that.  I am not asking for textures to be included with outfits at all.

Yes those would be the same as I was talking about. The alpha for the system layer.

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1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Aren't you aware of Bakes-on-Mesh and that now those alpha masks/layers are used to hide parts of the mesh bodies that people are wearing?

I was told in the mesh forum that mesh bodies are individual slices of mesh scripted to hide. I didn't realize they were using the system alpha. I assumed it was the texture box in edit. But now that I think about it, that would only make it white. Not invisible lol.

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4 minutes ago, Finite said:

I was told in the mesh forum that mesh bodies are individual slices of mesh scripted to hide. I didn't realize they were using the system alpha. I assumed it was the texture box in edit. But now that I think about it, that would only make it white. Not invisible lol.

You should take a look at this page to begin with:

This will help you to learn about Bakes-on-Mesh (BoM) and what is possible now.  It only works with body parts, not all types of mesh objects or rather it can be set on any mesh object but it is only useful for body parts.

After that there are many tutorials, videos and guides on the internet that you can find if you search for "bakes-on-mesh" or something similar.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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I just have this to say about alpha huds...  why on earth would anyone want to do away with such an important NEED.  Because no matter how good a mesh maker is at rigging, there will still be poke throughs with certain poses and dances that a hud can easily and quickly fix..  We must remember not to go too far in down scaling avatar bodies.. In my humble opinion. Maitreya has it locked down for choices with their latest body,  nothing was overlooked..  I love the choice to go full BOM or mix it up with mesh and be covered either way.

Edited by Tazzie Tuque
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10 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

You should take a look at this page to begin with:

This will help you to learn about Bakes-on-Mesh (BoM) and what is possible now.  It only works with body parts, not all types of mesh objects.
After that there are many tutorials, videos and guides on the internet that you can find if you search for "bakes-on-mesh" or something similar.

Yes I understand bom quite a bit. I just thought the scripts in body huds were hiding the individual mesh slices using the object hider in the edit tab. Didn't know they were using the system layer to do it since I thought (incorrectly) that would make it the mesh white (or the original color of the mesh without texture) not invisible.

Edited by Finite
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14 minutes ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

I just have this to say about alpha huds...  why on earth would anyone want to do away with such an important NEED.  Because no matter how good a mesh maker is at rigging, there will still be poke throughs with certain poses and dances that a hud can easily and quickly fix..  We must remember not to go too far in down scaling avatar bodies.. In my humble opinion. Maitreya has it locked down for choices with their latest body,  nothing was overlooked..  

Yes I have to agree with Maitreya and it's reasonably priced. I tried a demo for Legacy the other day to try to help a friend with something. While I like it when compared to some of the male bodies, I don't think it compares well to Maitreya. Been trying to get my friend to go Maitreya the last few days since lol.

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19 minutes ago, Finite said:

Yes I understand bom quite a bit. I just thought the scripts in body huds were hiding the individual mesh slices using the object hider in the edit tab. Didn't know they were using the system layer to do it since I thought (incorrectly) that would make it the mesh white (or the original color of the mesh without texture) not invisible.

Well, that's the point.  There are two ways to do it, one with HUDs, scripts and chunks of mesh that are individually changed to be hidden and now the BoM alpha mask/layers.  @Orwarwas advocating for the HUD/script method to go away in favour of the BoM method to some reasonable efficiency gains and some of us were putting forward an argument to show that this is not a total nor great solution for a lot of use cases and that we need those to stay.  My second post was trying to explain why I thought that there is a big difference between the way men with men's clothes would use a male body that makes this seem reasonable vs women with women's clothes and a female body.

Do you see?

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

 My second post was trying to explain why I thought that there is a big different between the way men with men's clothes would use a male body that makes this seem reasonable vs women with women's clothes and a female body.

Do you see?

Yes I got that after the fact.

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Been seeing people saying Belleza is working on an update for almost a year now.. kind of feel like they're just blowing hot air as i've scoured quite a bit and never found anything officially said about this. I think it's just wishful thinking. Which I understand. I still see a good bit of clothing sizes for Freya still coming out; thank god, because not all of us are in to having a near non-existent waist with a butt as large as Mount Everest.

Still see quite a bit for Jake as well, which from what I understand still has a pretty decently sized userbase.

I think most who are moving away from Freya, as others have said, are moving because of the lack of updates. Still the best looking(and most realistic) curvy body on the grid imo, so it's a shame.

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   Environment: we really need to do something about the emissions - but I'm still going to use plastic for everything and drive my car all over the place because it's convenient.

   Corona: people really need to stop going out in crowds and going to parties to stem the tide of death - but it mustn't get in the way of my social life.

   SL: People on average are using much too many scripts, which is the primary reason going to crowded places is a performance nightmare - but don't touch my scripts.

   As you make the bed, so you must lie, as we say in a laughably direct-translated Swedish proverb. Also it'd be nice with some actual arguments that aren't based on 'I'm too lazy and/or stupid to manage going full BoM'. Here, let me provide one for you: one drawback of alpha masks in their current state is the limits to their channels; with most mesh bodies using mirrored arms on the UV maps, you cannot asymmetrically alpha them to accommodate asymmetrical sleeves. This is a valid concern, for the time being, but if LL get around to actually make universal layers a viable option and update alpha masks to contain more channels to match them, this wouldn't be an issue - alternatively, body makers could 'do an Evo X' and switch up the UV maps to accommodate separate arms (although this would of course render all skins, tattoos and BoM clothes made up 'til this point incompatible, unless they instead put in another script to make it toggleable - at which point we haven't actually made as much progress as we've gone sideways). 

   Furthermore, the alpha HUDs don't actually do much for the whole 'symmetry' issue as you're pretty much forced to design your tight-fitting clothes to line up with the 8 sections available on the arms, lest you'll end up with the issue of a pie piece either clipping a little or your arm being slightly disconnected from the rest of your avi. Whilst asymmetry is achievable therethrough, it still forces designers to 'draw within the lines', so to speak.

   Never fear, there's a solution to this problem too:

a8de0a9524d4c3fa902a6dcc6d9c403b.jpg

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Meh, I'm not really seeing that much of a reduction in clothing for Belleza. I still see clothing for Freya and Isis, less so for Isis, but that has always been the case. Since I've been wearing Kupra, I can see at least Freya still has a fair amount of support at events, because there's stuff I want that is for Maitreya/Freya/Legacy. Some creators drop bodies all the time; I've been noticing some established creators only support Legacy now, which means they even stopped supporting Maitreya. They also pick bodies back up, I've been noticing creators are starting to support Hourglass again too, and a few months ago support was nonexistent.  Its a thing some creators do to test the waters I think. I've also noticed more creators are carrying more than three bodies now too, it kinda just depends.

Rebel Gal @TheSaturdaySale + Update Size!

 

They do need to update though. I don't really see a problem with it not being BoM in the hud. It's just a little switch and once its done, its done and you can junk it. Since we're supposed to be all lag conscious, I really don't see the point of adding another script to the hud. Separate seems like a better choice. The neck thing is a problem though, since Lelutka gave the universal neck out freely, there's no excuse for that. Can't really wear the newer heads with the old neck. If they were to update, I'd switch back no problem. I think their biggest problem is they really don't have an official Belleza group with an active CSR for the body or a discord presence like all of the other bodies do. So the silence leaves a lot of space for speculation.

I also have become a fan of straight up BOM bodies, I'm with Orwar. 

Edited by Janet Voxel
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23 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

I got a lady friend that's in that boat- fed up by the faltering support, but can't find a body with a shape she likes as much. Spent a couple hours the other day with that new one with the butt, but couldn't scale it down small enough for her liking.

That was my situation a bit back. Eventually I sat myself and alt on side by side pose stands with a demo of Maitreya and was able to almost match my look. I then put the two pose stands to the exact same coordinates and wore radically different skins on each avatar - and fixed for 'pop through' until I had my look very close. The resulting shape dials were very different - but I recreated my look other than one area in Maitreya 5.x...

 

Maitreya has a very small bosom even at size 100, so I couldn't match that nor come even close. The result of which was to buy an 'addon' that was silly big because... if I can't have something reasonable, I'm going to make a statement.

 

Belleza tends to take 2 to 2.5 years between updates. The pace over there is amazingly slow and if they miss even a tiny little thing that you could fix in about 3 seconds... it's going to be there for another 2-3 years.

This is just not viable anymore... People would rather buy a new body and in that span of time will likely have bought a whole new wardrobe anyway as styles change...

I've been told Belleza made their body on their own in a 3D modeling app, but contracted the scripting. I don't believe this. I suspect both were contracted - as that body is the only mesh product they have and the level of detail in it suggests an almost 'art model' design. As in it looks like it was made by someone who has experience in the Daz3D world, and then tried to 'downscale it' for 'real time gaming' - but still left about 70-million more polygons than should be there (compare to Regalia that fits all Belleza clothes above the ankle, but is only about 17,000 (or was it 37,000?) polygons total - it was made by someone who seems to have 'high FPS game-developer' experience).

It also helps explain the time delay for updates if they have to rehire someone each time and deal with the costs and project management thereof.

 

On top of that, the current Belleza went the wrong way in terms of complexity. 2 updates back they had a 'light' version that was less onion layers and less scripts. They discontinued it when they made newer smaller scripts, but the real utility of it was the less onion layers... and they didn't seem to understand that...

Belleza right now is only second to legacy in terms of being bad for lag 'polygon count wise' (or it's first - both are extremely bad but I forget which one was worse).

 

There's no need to HUD alphas anymore once you go BOM - alpha masks that we used right before mesh bodies work again, and can be precise to the exact pixel. Plus anyone with GIMP can slap one together easily and upload it to their own outfit list.

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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If Kupra makes one with a smaller butt and thighs I'm definitely changing over, especially if the non-support continues on as it is with Belleza.

For me Maitreya's bust is too small and the shoulders and underarm areas  are weird.  I don't want to  use Legacy because I don't like the way they do things.

I love my Belleza Freya.. but I have to keep on top of the hand problems. Right now I'm making sure to answer every survey about what body you use... just so makers don't drop making clothes for Freya.

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1 hour ago, Cherylinn said:

Right now I'm making sure to answer every survey about what body you use... just so makers don't drop making clothes for Freya.

   I used to do that for Geralt . . . Didn't help. 

   It's also interesting that whilst support for Freya has noticeably declined with some brands, on the male side of things there has in the last year been a fair few who've dropped Gianni to exclusively make for Jake and/or Legacy. Particularly I've noticed some that only rig for Jake.

   Whether it's a gambit of theirs to try to make people keep using Jake, or if they're just using Jake themselves and can't be bothered to rig for Signature and/or Legacy as well, I don't know. I for one won't be leaving Gianni any time soon, unless it's given any serious competition from a properly made body that looks at least as nice and doesn't multiply the resource requirements. 

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29 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I used to do that for Geralt . . . Didn't help. 

   It's also interesting that whilst support for Freya has noticeably declined with some brands, on the male side of things there has in the last year been a fair few who've dropped Gianni to exclusively make for Jake and/or Legacy. Particularly I've noticed some that only rig for Jake.

   Whether it's a gambit of theirs to try to make people keep using Jake, or if they're just using Jake themselves and can't be bothered to rig for Signature and/or Legacy as well, I don't know. I for one won't be leaving Gianni any time soon, unless it's given any serious competition from a properly made body that looks at least as nice and doesn't multiply the resource requirements. 

Actually I still see a lot of support for Belleza Freya, but the other two Belleza bodies,  Isis and Venus don't have near as much and I'm thinking the OP of the thread must wear one of the those two Belleza bodies. There are many makers out there though that are only doing Legacy and Maitreya. I see this a lot when going to clothing events and I flat out refuse to buy anything from them, not even accessories. I can't support them if they don't support me. 

I think Legacy must be making it really easy for creators to make clothing for them,  which is of course a smart move. I'm just hoping Inithium shakes things up and makes a few more body types. There's a market out there if they reach for it.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I used to do that for Geralt . . . Didn't help. 

   It's also interesting that whilst support for Freya has noticeably declined with some brands, on the male side of things there has in the last year been a fair few who've dropped Gianni to exclusively make for Jake and/or Legacy. Particularly I've noticed some that only rig for Jake.

   Whether it's a gambit of theirs to try to make people keep using Jake, or if they're just using Jake themselves and can't be bothered to rig for Signature and/or Legacy as well, I don't know. I for one won't be leaving Gianni any time soon, unless it's given any serious competition from a properly made body that looks at least as nice and doesn't multiply the resource requirements. 

I think it has to do with Belleza giving out their kit no problem. There are some other brands, that have people waiting for a kit for months and months *cough cough Legacy* so a lot of people work with what is available or if they really, really want to create for a certain body they use a bootleg kit *cough cough Maitreya experimental cough cough Legacy*

I think what is really holding Belleza back is that their kit is in an A-pose where all the other kits are in a T-pose and a lot of creators really don't know how or can't be bothered with fiddling with their mesh to make it fit on Belleza, so they drop it. You'd be surprised what some creators don't know how to do. Gotta meet those deadlines for events.

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5 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

I also have become a fan of straight up BOM bodies.

So have I, that's why I have one.  Luckily it supports alpha cuts as well because the creator of my body cared enough to think about how it would be used by their vastly superior numbers of customers.

I presume your "straight up" body just relies on system gloves and socks for nails though and doesn't have mesh nails that take appliers and can be hidden via a HUD?  In fact I do hope it doesn't even have a HUD if it is that "straight up" 😛

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

So have I, that's why I have one.  Luckily it supports alpha cuts as well because the creator of my body cared enough to think about how it would be used by their vastly superior numbers of customers.

I presume your "straight up" body just relies on system gloves and socks for nails though and doesn't have mesh nails that take appliers and can be hidden via a HUD?  In fact I do hope it doesn't even need a HUD if it is that "straight up" 😛

Are we doing the "My body is better than yours?" thing?

Nyah Nyah :3 by CakeKawaii on DeviantArt

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