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1 hour ago, Alazarin Mondrian said:

How about keeping the core sim as a non-profit exclusively for Role Play with no rental units and the adjoining sims as 'regular' rentals? It could be classed as your usual value-added themed rental. They might have to convert one of the homestead sims to a full sim but that would boost the land impact available for rental units. No doubt if LL made such a concession to Djehann Kidd, every other value-added landlord would be clamoring for a similar deal. Hangars Liquides and Insillico are two of my favourite regions. It would be a real loss to SL if Hangars Liquides had to close up.

Coming to think of if, the builds on the adjoining homestead sims could all be stacked vertically in a single full 'rental' sim with plenty of prims / land impact to spare. Not only that but the builds would benefit from the better script support that full regions have. Yes, it would be an epic job but it's nothing that you couldn't manage with a few days spent chucking rez box positioner scripts into each linked object. It's certainly doable. FWIW, I had a project 12 years ago that was 1.5 km in height packed into a string of RezFaux boxes [with their 100m radius limit]. The free CasperTech rezzing boxes will record the position of any object in an entire sim so it's definitely worth a try.

Its a very good suggestion, and actually HL was created as an art sim even if all kinds of rpers always joined in. We're doing a fundraiser on Indiegogo thanking the donors wuith apartments in the commercial sims, so similar to what you're suggesting! :D

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1 hour ago, Foxy Carpathia said:

I went there yesterday, ironically, and can not begin to tell my tale....

I sat down with the creator of these sims (which turn out to be five in total) 

My friend Angel, accompanied me. 

She has until August the 1st to come up with 3,000$ USD or the sims she has built, all the builds, the art, will be ..... hit delete.

I can not fathom the amount of pressure she is under.- 750,000 L....

I went there and she was kind to us both, very open, and understandably sad.... 

So I share her link to her market place, a location, and info's....

I feel like someone is about to set the Mona Lisa on Fire and noone else really cares...

I am doing what I can to help, and am about to start going to anyone and everyone to help.

Sad thing is she has 1,100 members in her group and they have no contributed a single thing.

I think she should axe the whole group, make a new one and charge, hell, all the "stores" do it and people easily drop their L's... Builds aren't free, and neither are awesome Cyber Cities...

 

Her store on Market:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/110378

Her YoutubeL

blergh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF1fIB_3kkY

In world TP:

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hangars Liquides/46/64/2232

 

hangars.png

That's kind and we're very close to the first target due on August, 1! Thanks for your committment! And yes Djehan is always kind!

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29 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

I will be brutally honest: I hovered over the indiegogo page, then realized making a contribution means having to share all my personal information with the Campaign holders, such as RL name, address, email, credit card number, etc. And that's getting a little too close for comfort to me. :( So, in a way I really wish she'd charge group fees, or let me rent something fancy in her city, for $LL. Even though I'm still not made of money, I would jump on that toute de suite.

Hey Kira, you can actually stay anonymous !https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526856-Do-I-have-to-show-my-name-when-I-contribute-

Thanks for your committment!

 

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i shared the donation site again with the SL FB crowd , hopefully lots of ppl will see it and chime in

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26 minutes ago, Jeny Howlett said:

i shared the donation site again with the SL FB crowd , hopefully lots of ppl will see it and chime in

Thank you so much Jeny!

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Posted (edited)

I'm a little confused. Your a non-profit organisation that cant afford to pay for your sims to keep HL open, yet you have a sim that is now commercial and doesn't get the non-profit discount (I assume). Consequently you are offering parcels on this commercial sim for payment using the crowdfunding which, in essence is still running a rental business only outside of the linden exchange. Wouldn't this just mean the rental payments will only be paying for the commercial sim seeing as it is now at full tier price? or, are you charging an larger outrageous amount for the parcels to pay for the rest of the sims.

If you are charging a larger amount for the parcels on the commercial sim to help support the non-profit sims doesn't this run in conflict with the ToS stating that rentals cannot help pay for non-profit discounted sims?

Maybe I have misread, not understood or something but that just doesn't seem right...

Edited by Drayke Newall
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12 hours ago, Foxy Carpathia said:

You now if you actually gave a *****... You could always look up her profile and send her the L's personally.  *huge eyeroll*

Hey Foxy, people are free to care or

not. There’s nothing bad. Selene is a very kind person, please! 

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53 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I'm a little confused. Your a non-profit organisation that cant afford to pay for your sims to keep HL open, yet you have a sim that is now commercial and doesn't get the non-profit discount (I assume). Consequently you are offering parcels on this commercial sim for payment using the crowdfunding which, in essence is still running a rental business only outside of the linden exchange. Wouldn't this just mean the rental payments will only be paying for the commercial sim seeing as it is now at full tier price? or, are you charging an larger outrageous amount for the parcels to pay for the rest of the sims.

If you are charging a larger amount for the parcels on the commercial sim to help support the non-profit sims doesn't this run in conflict with the ToS stating that rentals cannot help pay for non-profit discounted sims?

Maybe I have misread, not understood or something but that just doesn't seem right...

Please scroll back for all the answers. All has been covered. Thank you. 

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1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

I'm a little confused. Your a non-profit organisation that cant afford to pay for your sims to keep HL open, yet you have a sim that is now commercial and doesn't get the non-profit discount (I assume). Consequently you are offering parcels on this commercial sim for payment using the crowdfunding which, in essence is still running a rental business only outside of the linden exchange. Wouldn't this just mean the rental payments will only be paying for the commercial sim seeing as it is now at full tier price? or, are you charging an larger outrageous amount for the parcels to pay for the rest of the sims.

If you are charging a larger amount for the parcels on the commercial sim to help support the non-profit sims doesn't this run in conflict with the ToS stating that rentals cannot help pay for non-profit discounted sims?

Maybe I have misread, not understood or something but that just doesn't seem right...

Let me add: no one is charging anyone. The sim builder can’t sustain the artwork anymore. We are asking the city supporters whether they want to support the sim with donations or not. This is very common in the art system. Donors want their favourite sim to exist, their favourite artist to maintain it and, more in general, take a stand for a world where art and culture are possible. 

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Posted (edited)

 

30 minutes ago, Lawrence Celestalis said:

Please scroll back for all the answers. All has been covered. Thank you. 

Oh come on, you're going to have to do better than that.

You seriously think I posted a question like that without reading all of the posts. You need to either answer the questions specifically or give me a specific post in which you have answered those questions directly. If that is too much to ask, then instead of saying PR gibberish, just say you wont tell.

All I can find is you dodging these types of valid and reasonable questions, putting HL in the position of looking shady. For example this is all you have posted:

On 7/20/2019 at 11:41 PM, Lawrence Celestalis said:

All the donors will be given homes in commercial sims in order to comply with LL Tos.  Do ask if you have more doubts.

Nothing of which explains how you are circumnavigating Lab's specific rule that obtaining monies for provision of homes (i.e. rental income) shall not be allowed to support non-profit sims.

Plain and simply, I cannot see how you can give a parcel of land and state that it is thanks for a donation. That is just cleverly disguised rental payment/income and the very fact you had to place it on a commercial sim points to that very clearly. You are then transferring this "Profit" over to help pay for non-profit discounted sims. Its like the red cross giving preferential treatment for blood to a person that donated the blood or money to them.

The very definition of donation is to give WITHOUT reward or expected reward.

EDIT: Furthermore, if Labs has specifically provided detail stating that using crowdfunding with reward of the provision of land is not income and complies with their ToS for non-profit discount, can you please post it so as others who are non-profit struggling in SL to keep their sims alive can also benefit from this without threat of closure of their sims etc. from rental income?

Edited by Drayke Newall
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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

 

Oh come on, you're going to have to do better than that.

You seriously think I posted a question like that without reading all of the posts. You need to either answer the questions specifically or give me a specific post in which you have answered those questions directly. If that is too much to ask, then instead of saying PR gibberish, just say you wont tell.

All I can find is you dodging these types of valid and reasonable questions, putting HL in the position of looking shady. For example this is all you have posted:

Nothing of which explains how you are circumnavigating Lab's specific rule that obtaining monies for provision of homes (i.e. rental income) shall not be allowed to support non-profit sims.

Plain and simply, I cannot see how you can give a parcel of land and state that it is thanks for a donation. That is just cleverly disguised rental payment/income and the very fact you had to place it on a commercial sim points to that very clearly. You are then transferring this "Profit" over to help pay for non-profit discounted sims. Its like the red cross giving preferential treatment for blood to a person that donated the blood or money to them.

The very definition of donation is to give WITHOUT reward or expected reward.

EDIT: Furthermore, if Labs has specifically provided detail stating that using crowdfunding with reward of the provision of land is not income and complies with their ToS for non-profit discount, can you please post it so as others who are non-profit struggling in SL to keep their sims alive can also benefit from this without threat of closure of their sims etc. from rental income?

I would rather look at the matter from a simplier perspective: i would look for a rule that prevents no profits from getting donations in order to pursue their mission, be it rl or sl. 

Edited by Lawrence Celestalis
Minor spelling corrections
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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Lawrence Celestalis said:

I would rather look at the matter from a simplier perspective: i would look for a rule that prevents no profits from getting donations in order to pursue their mission, be it rl or sl. 

There is no rule for non-profits to not get donations. There is however a rule, irrespective of RL, that in SL you cannot use rental income to pay for sims that have a non-profit discount. The very reason in the first pages of this thread as well as in the NWN blog which, was from an interview with the owner stating that rental income was the reason for the issue (of which suspiciously now doesn't seem to be the case).

You can call it what you like, but providing land in SL on a commercial sim to people for payment is income or profit and no matter where it comes from or how its paid (i.e. crowdfunding or linden dollars) you are using the payment for land as a means of supporting your non-profit discount. I take it, seeing as you didn't post any details from Lab saying otherwise, that you don't have any (i.e. approval from labs) and this is the solution you or the owner came up with.

When people mentioned crowdfunding in the thread as a means to help payment, I can guarantee they didn't mean keep the non-profit discount and crowdfund for "reward of land". That is just low and a spit in the face to the people that respect the non-profit discount fairly and comply 100% with the ToS.

So congrats either labs don't know or they do and you found a loophole, either way just don't come screaming bloody murder and asking again for people to help save HL when labs find out and stop it or the loophole is fixed.

Edited by Drayke Newall
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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

There is no rule for non-profits to not get donations. There is however a rule, irrespective of RL, that in SL you cannot use rental income to pay for sims that have a non-profit discount. The very reason in the first pages of this thread as well as in the NWN blog which, was from an interview with the owner stating that rental income was the reason for the issue (of which suspiciously now doesn't seem to be the case).

You can call it what you like, but providing land in SL on a commercial sim to people for payment is income or profit and no matter where it comes from or how its paid (i.e. crowdfunding or linden dollars) you are using the payment for land as a means of supporting your non-profit discount. I take it, seeing as you didn't post any details from Lab saying otherwise, that you don't have any (i.e. approval from labs) and this is the solution you or the owner came up with.

When people mentioned crowdfunding in the thread as a means to help payment, I can guarantee they didn't mean keep the non-profit discount and crowdfund for "reward of land". That is just low and a spit in the face to the people that respect the non-profit discount fairly and comply 100% with the ToS.

So congrats either labs don't know or they do and you found a loophole, either way just don't come screaming bloody murder and asking again for people to help save HL when labs find out and stop it or the loophole is fixed.

They have almost reached the minimum goal so cry me a river

Edited by Jeny Howlett
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Just now, Jeny Howlett said:

They have almost reached the minimum goal so cry me a river

Good for them, and if this is a loophole or contrary still to the ToS, and Lab still threaten forcing the sims closure I'm sure all those "donors" will be thrilled their money was wasted and went nowhere.

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5 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

There is no rule for non-profits to not get donations. There is however a rule, irrespective of RL, that in SL you cannot use rental income to pay for sims that have a non-profit discount. The very reason in the first pages of this thread as well as in the NWN blog which, was from an interview with the owner stating that rental income was the reason for the issue (of which suspiciously now doesn't seem to be the case).

You can call it what you like, but providing land in SL on a commercial sim to people for payment is income or profit and no matter where it comes from or how its paid (i.e. crowdfunding or linden dollars) you are using the payment for land as a means of supporting your non-profit discount. I take it, seeing as you didn't post any details from Lab saying otherwise, that you don't have any (i.e. approval from labs) and this is the solution you or the owner came up with.

When people mentioned crowdfunding in the thread as a means to help payment, I can guarantee they didn't mean keep the non-profit discount and crowdfund for "reward of land". That is just low and a spit in the face to the people that respect the non-profit discount fairly and comply 100% with the ToS.

So congrats either labs don't know or they do and you found a loophole, either way just don't come screaming bloody murder and asking again for people to help save HL when labs find out and stop it or the loophole is fixed.

I will take your suggestion and never ever come to this forum again for such cases. Thank you

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Good for them, and if this is a loophole or contrary still to the ToS, and Lab still threaten forcing the sims closure I'm sure all those "donors" will be thrilled their money was wasted and went nowhere.

they will only keep the donations if the sims can be up and running. Otherwise they would refund the donors. I guess you never read the original description.

Edited by Jeny Howlett
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1 hour ago, Jeny Howlett said:

they will only keep the donations if the sims can be up and running. Otherwise they would refund the donors. I guess you never read the original description.

what you describe here makes it absolutely no donation, this is a product you sell upfront, and if no delivery possible you get your payment back.
A donation is never refundable. Its given out of free will, with no future expectations, and for most not even for a specific cause, but free to spend by the receiver. With this temperatures it could be even for a icecream for staff.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

what you describe here makes it absolutely no donation, this is a product you sell upfront, and if no delivery possible you get your payment back.
A donation is never refundable. Its given out of free will, with no future expectations, and for most not even for a specific cause, but free to spend by the receiver. With this temperatures it could be even for a icecream for staff.

Donations which are meant to specific no profit goals (in this case keeping the artwork alive by paying servers for a year) are always given back should such target not be reached. That is a very common no profit practice aimed at transparency and clarity towards the donors. 

Edit: in this case the minimum goal is 3.000, which are due by August, 1. The other half can be paid in smaller installments throughout the rest of the year. Should that not be reached, donations will be given back to donors. 

Edited by Lawrence Celestalis
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3 hours ago, Jeny Howlett said:

they will only keep the donations if the sims can be up and running. Otherwise they would refund the donors. I guess you never read the original description.

The issue here is that Linden Lab could decide to revoke the non-profit status of the sims, due to the fact that donations-for-rentals are technically classified as for-profit sales instead. We know that this is likely, as LL applying this rule to inworld rental sales achieved the same effect. If so, then the region rents go back to their full price and so the $6700 per year rent cost for the five regions will be doubled to compensate. The target of 50%/$3000 by the 1st of August effectively becomes $6000... and the Indiegogo page is a long way from $6000.

What would happen if the fundraiser raised between $3000 and $6000, and LL strips the non-profit discount from the sim? The $3000 target would be met, but that amount would pay for 3-4 months rent only... would the donations be returned, or would the sim get an extra few months of life before closing?

(I used to run a real life charity shop, so I know how messy things can get when you're a business-for-a-charitable-purpose like this. It's a nightmare. But the rules still have to be followed, even when they're dumb and counter-productive.)

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10 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

 If so, then the region rents go back to their full price and so the $6700 per year rent cost for the five regions will be doubled to compensate.

Hmm. I wonder... maybe that's the assumption going in, and baked into the targets? Because without running the numbers I'm not seeing how they could be this far underwater except by losing that discount on all the income-generating regions.

(I haven't run the numbers; I'm just doing "qualitative accounting" -- spitball analysis at best -- so I truly don't know what I'm talking about.)

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1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

Hmm. I wonder... maybe that's the assumption going in, and baked into the targets? Because without running the numbers I'm not seeing how they could be this far underwater except by losing that discount on all the income-generating regions.

(I haven't run the numbers; I'm just doing "qualitative accounting" -- spitball analysis at best -- so I truly don't know what I'm talking about.)

~$6700 /5 /12 gives you ~$111 per region per month, within rounding errors of the $115 per region per month discounted rent. We're currently at 40% of the $6700 goal... so 20% of the full rent cost.

On the topic of number crunching, as of this moment 79% of the donation money raised through that Indiegogo page has been through purchasing rental apartments, rather than direct donations.

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Last two posts go back to issues that have been already covered and explained, so please go back to the previous posts. Overall yearly costs are 6.000 and not 6.700.  A dear family member just got out of surgery room and is luckily fine so you will forgive me if I take a pause from this thread. Best to all. 

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6 minutes ago, Lawrence Celestalis said:

Last two posts go back to issues that have been already covered and explained, so please go back to the previous posts. Overall yearly costs are 6.000 and not 6.700.  A dear family member just got out of surgery room and is luckily fine so you will forgive me if I take a pause from this thread. Best to all. 

4502b26bf5.png

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56 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

4502b26bf5.png

it shows EUR for me. And those apartments are offered as perks. Better than offering nothing back at all.

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