Chic Aeon Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: So... you'd been trying to process credit to clear a balance of about one USD? (!) I've never processed credit and haven't kept track of what fees the Lab has set, but I'd have expected it to cost more than that just to process the order into PayPal. Yes but of course you can't send to Paypal unless you have more than $3.00 to cash out ---- so I changed some Lindens to my USD account, but still wasn't able to process them. I tried on two "paid 9.95 for "legal" avatars with Info Payment Used. The page you need to go to in order to "apparently " add your Social Security Number is broken (that may not be it as I never go there but the text involves SUGGESTS that is the plan). I would NOT add my SSN anyway. And yes, it costs the minimum of $3.00 to process credit to Paypal. THE POINT WAS TO GET MY USD balance on those accounts to ZERO so that I would not have to "agree" to the Tilia TOS and Privacy Policy come August 1. Getting that balance to zero is the only way around that according to Grumpity [Tilia Town Hall meeting]. It was said at least twice, maybe three times. Buying lindens is certainly "cheaper" and only costs $1.49 in fee, so indeed that is a better option. I just never buy lindens and so it wasn't something I thought about doing. Honestly I am surprised that you missed all this as it has been said MANY times in this thread. Hope I am clear now :D. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said: Buying lindens is certainly "cheaper" and only costs $1.49 in fee, so indeed that is a better option. Ok, so wait. What if you have less than $1.49 in your "USD/Tilia Wallet" come 1 August? You don't have enough to either buy L$s, or transfer ("cash") out. So, you can't "get rid of it," short of actually putting more into it. And that means that you must accept the Tilia TOS. I'm willing to bet that a number of people have very small accounts rattling around in their "wallet." And another thing I'm a bit foggy on. At the town hall, apparently it was said that residents agree to the Tilia by "logging-in to their account via the secondlife.com website." Which means the dashboard, I presume? So, you can log into Second Life itself -- i.e., go in-world -- without agreeing to the TOS, even if you have USDs? Edited July 21, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 28 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Ok, so wait. What if you have less than $1.49 in your "USD/Tilia Wallet" come 1 August? You don't have enough to either buy L$s, or transfer ("cash") out. So, you can't "get rid of it," short of actually putting more into it. And that means that you must accept the Tilia TOS. It DOES get complex doesn't it? I did have less than 1.49 -- like .84. My initial plan was to convert remaining lindens (not much as they were cashed out about ten days ago) and then process that credit to my Paypal. THAT obviously didn't work. I suspect part of the process is currently broken, but seeing what suggested itself to be a form to add a SSN sort of got my eyes wide open. THAT wasn't supposed to happen until after August 1 -- at least that was my understanding. So puzzled there and maybe that page -- if and when it shows up is something other than I thought it was (or perhaps it will "change" === one never knows these days). NO ONE that I can think of NEEDS to accept the Tilia TOS (certainly there choice but not the only choice). You can buy some lindens (minimum is $2.50 US worth) and USE UP YOUR USD amount (let's say that .84 in this case ). That is taken FIRST unless you say not to use it and THEN the process charges your Paypal or credit card. I originally had a screenshot of BOTH the "Don't have a SSN" page and the buying of lindens using your USD balance in my post above. But I decided that was probably against the TOS somehow and so deleted it. BUT IT DOES WORK. I did it twice now and NONE of my avatars currently have a USD balance -- and likely never will again. 28 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I'm willing to bet that a number of people have very small accounts rattling around in their "wallet." Absolutely. Anyone that converts lindens to the USD "wallet" in order to pay premium will fall into this category. 28 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: And another thing I'm a bit foggy on. At the town hall, apparently it was said that residents agree to the Tilia by "logging-in to their account via the secondlife.com website." Which means the dashboard, I presume? So, you can log into Second Life itself -- i.e., go in-world -- without agreeing to the TOS, even if you have USDs? Perhaps but that isn't how I understood it. I think that ACCESSING your backend page that shows your USD balance should you have one SATISFIES the "checking in" requirement (this from Grumpity at the Tilia Town Hall) but as "I" understood it anyone with a USD balance in their wallet will see -- and have to agree to the Tilia TOS and Privacy Policy (US only) in order to log into SL --- similarly to other TOS changes in the past which actually we haven't had in AGES!!! As I said to Qi, Grumpity said at least a couple of time that you HAD to have an empty USD wallet in order NOT to see the Tilia TOS agreement on login. Since we don't have a transcript (and looks like we NEVER will) it is pretty difficult to quote. I did read though that some non-official person was making a transcript -- today or yesterday I think. But honestly I can't remember more than that. With the TOS of 2013 we were told that logging into the backend was the SAME as agreeing to the TOS via the viewer. That is why some folk had to leave a ton of money in their accounts because they would be breaking real life contracts IF they logged in to transfer money and "in essence signed" the 2013 TOS. Of course NONE of that was ever tested and the lawyers here on the forums and on TV argued both sides --- so the only way to know what was actually legal would have been for someone to sue Linden Lab. And of course that is no longer a possibility now anyway. It is a vicious cycle. I keep talking to people that have NO IDEA this is happening. I just hope that each person that does understand tells their friends to research and make their own decisions and then tell THEIR friends to research and make theirs. There is no one RIGHT answer for everyone, but making an informed decision --- in my mind -- is important. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 It does seem like ideally the August 1st login for folks with a USD balance should have (at least) one other option: convert all my remaining USDs to L$s at the Lindex spot market exchange rate. The transaction fee makes this hard to explain, though, and probably would produce another deluge of posts about how the Lab wants to rob them of 78 cents or whatever. Actually, if the balance is non-trivial, forcing the spot market rate is "punishment" enough, like buying L$s in the viewer. Probably the Lab doesn't expect more than a very few folks to balk at the Tilia ToS so they may well figure it's not worth thinking too hard about the opt-out options. (I don't see anything unusual in that ToS, myself, but I'm not a lawyer; I hate HATE HATE imposed arbitration agreements -- almost as much as I despise non-mutual NDAs -- but they're everso popular and none of it stuck out as unusual to me.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Chic Aeon said: I keep talking to people that have NO IDEA this is happening. Well, however well LL manages to inform most residents about the coming changes -- and the logical way to do it might actually be at log-in sometime very soon -- there are still going to be literally thousands of residents who log-in for the first time after 1 August, and are essentially placed in the position of having to agree to Tilia TOS if they ever want to access SL again, because they have a USD balance, and can't remove it without using Tilia. I hope they're planning to provide their customer service agents with danger pay. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyelaNewLife Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 6 hours ago, Chic Aeon said: I keep talking to people that have NO IDEA this is happening. I just hope that each person that does understand tells their friends to research and make their own decisions and then tell THEIR friends to research and make theirs. There is no one RIGHT answer for everyone, but making an informed decision --- in my mind -- is important. On the topic of informed decisions... I've tried - I really have! - to find a valid reason for someone to go out of their way to avoid the Tilia ToS in this thread and others... and I've come up with nothing. I've found a good number of non-reasons, but the overwhelming majority of those have come from people who didn't/couldn't read basic English, and that's obviously not you. So what am I missing here? I've been telling people that this change is a simple repackage and rebrand of services and terms we already use, with almost no actual change for almost everyone (inactives with USD balances being the exception). If that's incorrect, I'd love to know so that I can fix my advice. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Despite what many may say or put forth Ayela ... Yes, it is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 4 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said: I've been telling people that this change is a simple repackage and rebrand of services and terms we already use, with almost no actual change for almost everyone (inactives with USD balances being the exception). If that's incorrect, I'd love to know so that I can fix my advice. So far as I can ascertain, that's about right -- but I'm not a lawyer. One thing to add is that those processing credit will need to send personal information (SS#, passport, etc.) -- but some will have done that already and perhaps won't need to again. I'd be interested in a side-by-side comparison of the Tilia TOS with the relevant bits of the current SL TOS, to highlight what there has changed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic Aeon Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 4 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said: On the topic of informed decisions... I've tried - I really have! - to find a valid reason for someone to go out of their way to avoid the Tilia ToS in this thread and others... and I've come up with nothing. I've found a good number of non-reasons, but the overwhelming majority of those have come from people who didn't/couldn't read basic English, and that's obviously not you. So what am I missing here? I've been telling people that this change is a simple repackage and rebrand of services and terms we already use, with almost no actual change for almost everyone (inactives with USD balances being the exception). If that's incorrect, I'd love to know so that I can fix my advice. Really just one simple thought here since you have apparently read through and hopefully understand that Tilia Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. IF there is truly " almost no actual change for almost everyone (inactives with USD balances being the exception)" then why, when Tilia was announced was it stated that "EVERYONE would need to OK the Tilia TOS" in order to be able to access Second Life? Why bother with that formality -- if it is indeed just that? You may be willing and even happy to accept the Tilia TOS; others are not. This isn't an argument --- it is a choice. You've made yours, others have made there's. And while I have seen a few non-English speaking comments on this and the official Tilia FAQ thread, most were from people who used the language well -- just my perception. See you on the other side; fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I'd be interested in a side-by-side comparison of the Tilia TOS with the relevant bits of the current SL TOS, to highlight what there has changed. From a cursory reading some weeks ago it appears to be much clearer in the new TOS that if you incur any kind of loss there's absolutely no recourse as a consumer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 You answered your own question: A formality. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said: I've been telling people that this change is a simple repackage and rebrand of services and terms we already use, with almost no actual change for almost everyone (inactives with USD balances being the exception). If that's incorrect, I'd love to know so that I can fix my advice. Where is the sense in agreeing to the terms of a service I am not going to use and have no need of? Anyone who Agrees to the ToS of a service they are not going to use is a fool to sign a legal binding contract for that service. Frankly, doing that is the epitome of stupidity. It has nothing to do with rebranding or repackaging, which, imo, is not accurate at all. Other people may be foolish enough to sign legally binding contracts for services they will not use. I'm not. LL isn't a freaking US hospital. Edited July 21, 2019 by Selene Gregoire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: Where is the sense in agreeing to the terms of a service I am not going to use and have no need of? Anyone who Agrees to the ToS of a service they are not going to use is a fool to sign a legal binding contract for that service. Frankly, doing that is the epitome of stupidity. It has nothing to do with rebranding or repackaging, which, imo, is not accurate at all. Other people may be foolish enough to sign legally binding contracts for services they will not use. I'm not. LL isn't a freaking US hospital. And now you no longer have to! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 23 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: And now you no longer have to! Why, what changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said: Why, what changed? Only those directly using Tilia -- which is to say, those with USD balances, or those "processing credit" (i.e., transferring money out of SL) will be asked to agree to the Tilia TOS. This was announced the morning of the town hall. So, in fact, the vast majority of SL residents need not worry about Tilia at all. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Only those directly using Tilia -- which is to say, those with USD balances, or those "processing credit" (i.e., transferring money out of SL) will be asked to agree to the Tilia TOS. This was announced the morning of the town hall. So, in fact, the vast majority of SL residents need not worry about Tilia at all. I saw that on the official thread, too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Just now, Love Zhaoying said: I saw that on the official thread, too. Yep. It was an edit made to the original FAQ. In theory, this should help dampen the outrage and what Qie has called the FUD surrounding this issue. Or it would, if LL took actual concrete steps to address the misinformation still floating about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 I am preparing to submit to Tilia. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: And now you no longer have to! I've known that since they added it to the official thread. I was also the first one to bring their illegal coercion to their attention in that thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyelaNewLife Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 38 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: Where is the sense in agreeing to the terms of a service I am not going to use and have no need of? Anyone who Agrees to the ToS of a service they are not going to use is a fool to sign a legal binding contract for that service. Frankly, doing that is the epitome of stupidity. It has nothing to do with rebranding or repackaging, which, imo, is not accurate at all. Other people may be foolish enough to sign legally binding contracts for services they will not use. I'm not. LL isn't a freaking US hospital. Why isn't it accurate? I'm honestly curious here. Because you've already agreed to those terms, when they were part of the wider Second Life ToS (with the exception of the changes re: inactive balances). The sky didn't fall down, judgement day didn't arrive, you simply signed some terms for a service that you were not using and so didn't affect you at all. So why the outcry, now that someone has done a copy+paste job on the document and swapped the logo out? Unless of course I'm wrong, and there are more concrete differences between Tilia-as-part-of-SL and Tilia-as-its-own-entity. But so far no one has been able to come up with an answer to this, so... yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said: Why isn't it accurate? I'm honestly curious here. Because you've already agreed to those terms, when they were part of the wider Second Life ToS (with the exception of the changes re: inactive balances). The sky didn't fall down, judgement day didn't arrive, you simply signed some terms for a service that you were not using and so didn't affect you at all. So why the outcry, now that someone has done a copy+paste job on the document and swapped the logo out? Unless of course I'm wrong, and there are more concrete differences between Tilia-as-part-of-SL and Tilia-as-its-own-entity. But so far no one has been able to come up with an answer to this, so... yeah. No I didn't agree to those terms when they were deployed. They were deployed during a time period of close to 5 years that I did not log in. To be safe, a person should never sign a contract unless they have read it, fully understand it, and want to be legally bound to do what it says. Never sign a contract without understanding and negotiating key terms, no matter what. That is Business Contracts 101. You do not sign contracts you do not want to be legally bound to. I don't want to be bound to a service I will NOT use. It's that simple. If you can't wrap your brain around that concept, I can't help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyelaNewLife Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Just now, Selene Gregoire said: No I didn't agree to those terms when they were deployed. They were deployed during a time period of close to 5 years that I did not log in. To be safe, a person should never sign a contract unless they have read it, fully understand it, and want to be legally bound to do what it says. Never sign a contract without understanding and negotiating key terms, no matter what. That is Business Contracts 101. You do not sign contracts you do not want to be legally bound to. I don't want to be bound to a service I will NOT use. It's that simple. If you can't wrap your brain around that concept, I can't help you. Sure, but you did agree to it when you started logging back into Second Life once more, just as you agreed to every other change to the ToS that was implemented during your break. I therefore assume that you read it, fully understood it, and wanted to be legally bound by the terms for Tilia-as-part-of-SL? And if so, then what has changed to make you no longer want to be legally bound by this contract? I might be grouping you up with others unfairly here. If so, I apologise; but there have been a fair few people who have demanded an opt-out for a contract that they are currently bound to, simply because it was repackaged and relabelled. That's what I can't get my head around. If Tilia was an entirely new service that came with terms and obligations that we were not already bound to, then I fully understand and agree with where you're coming from - but it isn't, to the best of my knowledge at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said: Sure, but you did agree to it when you started logging back into Second Life once more, just as you agreed to every other change to the ToS that was implemented during your break. I therefore assume that you read it, fully understood it, and wanted to be legally bound by the terms for Tilia-as-part-of-SL? And if so, then what has changed to make you no longer want to be legally bound by this contract? I might be grouping you up with others unfairly here. If so, I apologise; but there have been a fair few people who have demanded an opt-out for a contract that they are currently bound to, simply because it was repackaged and relabelled. That's what I can't get my head around. If Tilia was an entirely new service that came with terms and obligations that we were not already bound to, then I fully understand and agree with where you're coming from - but it isn't, to the best of my knowledge at least. No, I didn't. There was no ToS to agree to when I logged back in the first time after 5 years. Zip, zilch, nada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 I assume that those of us without USD balances will never be asked to agree to the Tilia TOS, so this entire exercise is a waste of time for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted July 21, 2019 Share Posted July 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: I assume that those of us without USD balances will never be asked to agree to the Tilia TOS, so this entire exercise is a waste of time for us! Exactly. For those in this situation -- which is most of us -- this is all pretty irrelevant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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