Why Are There So Few Good Mesh Skyboxes?

[Blush Bravin]

4 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I think the market for skyboxes is not large not because people don't use skyboxes -- they do -- but because they let rental agents buy them because they find them either costly, or confusing to try to put up in the air (although changing one number on the XYZ axis on the rezzer or the entire item is enough to do that, many don't know this trick or are afraid of it). 

The sky is littered with skyboxes in the mainland and the majority of them are not rentals. I don't know where you get this idea that people don't buy their own skyboxes.

[Prokofy Neva]

1 minute ago, Blush Bravin said:

The sky is littered with skyboxes in the mainland and the majority of them are not rentals. I don't know where you get this idea that people don't buy their own skyboxes.

This is a thread about *mesh* skyboxes. Sure, there is all kinds of junk in the sky -- I know, because I rent out the sky. Prims -- low and high -- and ugly sculpties are hugely common. The discussion is about the market *for good quality mesh skyboxes* which might be both expensive and high-prim.

[Blush Bravin]

5 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

That "feet sinking through the floor" thing can be a function of what kind of shoes/boots you have on. I don't know why. Maybe there are invisible prims on some of them. But I sometimes add a floorboard on 100% transparent so I can walk without feeling I'm sunk to my ankles. Other people might be put up in the air, however.

In the few cottages I build, I never use mesh for the floor because of the rezzing issues. In the mesh homes I buy I typically will rez a box for the floor and texture it. I do this for two reasons, I very often am not fond of the floor texture and in the rare case that I like the floor texture I will still do it to prevent rezzing issues. There are just certain things where mesh is not a good option.

[Aethelwine]

5 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

That "feet sinking through the floor" thing can be a function of what kind of shoes/boots you have on. I don't know why. Maybe there are invisible prims on some of them. But I sometimes add a floorboard on 100% transparent so I can walk without feeling I'm sunk to my ankles. Other people might be put up in the air, however.

Your shoe\foot base (at least on a female avatar) allows a little height adjustment with platform and heel height sliders. AOs also affect height you are above the floor, why some include animation sets for different scaled avatars.

[Blush Bravin]

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

This is a thread about *mesh* skyboxes. Sure, there is all kinds of junk in the sky -- I know, because I rent out the sky. Prims -- low and high -- and ugly sculpties are hugely common. The discussion is about the market *for good quality mesh skyboxes* which might be both expensive and high-prim.

Lord have mercy ... do I have to say mesh .. okay .. I meant mesh since this thread is about mesh skyboxes. I see MESH skyboxes all over the sky. Better?

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

The sky is littered with skyboxes in the mainland and the majority of them are not rentals. I don't know where you get this idea that people don't buy their own skyboxes.

Mr. Neva seems to be using the term "skybox" in this thread largely to refer to "a natural environment, including walkable land, that can be put in the air." Which, of course, isn't what the vast majority of people in Second Life think of as a skybox, but it's his thread.

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

In the few cottages I build, I never use mesh for the floor because of the rezzing issues. In the mesh homes I buy I typically will rez a box for the floor and texture it. I do this for two reasons, I very often am not fond of the floor texture and in the rare case that I like the floor texture I will still do it to prevent rezzing issues. There are just certain things where mesh is not a good option.

Just noting that I also did the prim floor for a long while. When mesh was new especially there were "issues"  (make that ISSUES!) and the physics were completely off ---  there was no way to NOT fall though the floor, edge of patio etc. Since then, happily, and for the last few years there are actually (usually) NO issues with mesh floors as long as the creator knows how to make a good physics model.  If the house is complex and the uploader gets confused (yes, even the Linden viewer uploader) then now and then a prim (or mesh prim actually) might be needed.   Most physics issues these days are caused by the creator, not the uploader :D. 

So just wanted to stick that into the discussion.  Of course the surround environment (here called skybox) COULD be older and need a prim in the mix.   It IS an easy fix for most folks in case the builder didn't fix it themselves.  

 

I was going to comment on this thread the other day but don't think I did.  I am pretty sure the 20 land impact walkable hills mentioned earlier are mine :D. If not they must be similar. The largest ANYONE can make a mesh in SL is 64 meters, so there is no way to make a single mesh quarter sim landform in SL for example (other platforms certainly).   The texture on mine can easily be changed and made "clearer" by adjusting the texture repeats in the building pane.  

AND while I do have mesh surrounds with curved edges they ARE going to be "primmy" simply because as someone mentioned (maybe another thread) the uploader HATES curves and spheres and anything NON-linear). There is no way around that at this point in time and I doubt it will change with the new (if they ever happen) upload settings and land impact changes. 

[MoiraKathleen]

13 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

and for the last few years there are actually (usually) NO issues with mesh floors as long as the creator knows how to make a good physics model.

As a consumer, it is hard to know which creators know how to do this, and which ones don't.   I've purchased some houses from the same creator over the past several years and some of the floors are fine in some houses, and not fine in other houses.  Just because some creators know something, doesn't mean all do - just like I still get NC's with some products telling me to increase my LOD setting in order to "see their product as intended".

From a consumer perspective, it seems it's best to be wary when you first start furnishing a house, and test out rezzing a copy item first, to see whether there will be problems in that specific house or not. 

[Blush Bravin]

2 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Just noting that I also did the prim floor for a long while. When mesh was new especially there were "issues"  (make that ISSUES!) and the physics were completely off ---  there was no way to NOT fall though the floor, edge of patio etc. Since then, happily, and for the last few years there are actually (usually) NO issues with mesh floors as long as the creator knows how to make a good physics model.

My issue with mesh floors isn't so much the falling through or hovering above the floor thing. My issue is trying to rez a no-copy mesh item on a mesh floor. Too often you get a not-able-to-rez message and the items poofs. At least nowadays those items tend to end up back in your inventory once you relog unlike the earlier days when those items were just plain gone.

[Chic Aeon]

11 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

My issue with mesh floors isn't so much the falling through or hovering above the floor thing. My issue is trying to rez a no-copy mesh item on a mesh floor. Too often you get a not-able-to-rez message and the items poofs. At least nowadays those items tend to end up back in your inventory once you relog unlike the earlier days when those items were just plain gone.

Agreed that is a pain. BUT the non rez issue is fixed (in the uploader) and has been for awhile. Any issues are creator made for that part of the equation.  Just wanted to be clear :D.   A prim is a very easy fix and won't necessarily cause an increase in land impact -- so all good. 

IF there is an issue with rezzing or fall-though, then REALLY --- the creator should add the prim (or mesh cube) and fix the issue BEFORE selling.  IMO

Edited January 5, 2019 by Chic Aeon

[Wulfie Reanimator]

5 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Please test that out and report back.

In other words, do all the work for us ;0

If you manage to contact a creator with an active store and tell them "their skybox is bad" and then get them to send me a .dae so I can "try to fix their work," I'll gladly spend hours on sciencing™ it out.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

If you manage to contact a creator with an active store and tell them "their skybox is bad" and then get them to send me a .dae so I can "try to fix their work," I'll gladly spend hours on sciencing™ it out.

Message a creator and tell them something they created is bad -- are you tryin to get me killed? ;0

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Message a creator and tell them something they created is bad -- are you tryin to get me killed? ;0

I'm glad you can see the issue.

[Pussycat Catnap]

On 1/3/2019 at 11:37 PM, Wulfie Reanimator said:

You are correct. There is no rule even close to "don't mention any names." The closest thing we have is "don't post Interpersonal Disputes or Personal Negative Commentary," aka "don't name-and-shame" which is easily extended to stores/businesses.

That's actually NOT a rule to not name and shame.

If I say a business or product sucks - that's not at all the same as posting an interpersonal dispute.

If I say a product is broken, that is not personal negative commentary.

It's a logic fallacy to presume criticizing a business is criticizing a person, and criticizing a product is making a dispute. Granted so many people these days cannot make a critique without attaching a slander or other form of ad hominem to it these days, so it doesn't surprise me that they also don't understand the very difference.

I've made negative comments about businesses or products her many times, and never been sanctioned for it - because at least in those posts I properly limit the scope of what I'm saying to the nature of the issue with the business or the product - and NOT to the people behind it.

(I've had my arguments on these forums, but those are in other topic areas.)

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Pussycat Catnap

[Wulfie Reanimator]

28 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

That's actually NOT a rule to not name and shame.

If I say a business or product sucks - that's not at all the same as posting an interpersonal dispute.

If I say a product is broken, that is not personal negative commentary.

I want to dare you to make a thread calling out "that one brand you love to hate" and see how it goes, but... I'd probably get blamed for it too.

I don't care to debate something as open-ended and common-sense as forum guidelines though, you win.

[Sasy Scarborough]

I think I read it all, and just adding my two cents

Firstly, newer creators to the grid, are not always so aware of the history of SL and the sky, so builders are building for the ground, as a lot more live on the ground now since homesteads etc. That is one thing, and not such a shocker I am sure.

The other thing that I have also noticed and which is why you are finding it hard to find things is that 'Skyboxes" are now being sold as 'Backdrops' or 'Photo booths' or 'props' people are not building them for people to live in, they are building them to sell to the higher user base of photographers, and it has made me chuckle many times at an event to see a fully furnished skybox be sold as a backdrop with absolutely no intent for it to be used in any other way than to shoot lingerie or something.

This however opens up so many other possibilities for amazing adaptations to environments, because there are some that are built with full outsides, again for photo oppurtunities. 

The downside and this is big, and sad and makes me grumpy, is that a lot of the better ones are Gacha, so while you may be lucky enough to get that rare, and I am that lucky often, if I was a reseller I could retire lol,  but it means NO MOD NO COPY so as a person looking for options to use for renters that makes that very eek on the no copy part especially.  

It does also mean you can create little montages yourself with the pieces if you so desire and I am not sure, but some stores may be willing to swap out rares for copy. 

Long story short, broaden your search terms to photo type keywords.

[Chic Aeon]

57 minutes ago, Sasy Scarborough said:

The downside and this is big, and sad and makes me grumpy, is that a lot of the better ones are Gacha, so while you may be lucky enough to get that rare, and I am that lucky often, if I was a reseller I could retire lol,  but it means NO MOD NO COPY so as a person looking for options to use for renters that makes that very eek on the no copy part especially.

Just wanted to note that not ALL gachas are no mod. ALL of MINE are MOD - NC - TRANS. 

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

1 hour ago, Sasy Scarborough said:

The downside and this is big, and sad and makes me grumpy, is that a lot of the better ones are Gacha, so while you may be lucky enough to get that rare, and I am that lucky often, if I was a reseller I could retire lol,  but it means NO MOD NO COPY so as a person looking for options to use for renters that makes that very eek on the no copy part especially.  

I'd never buy a home item as a gatcha. For anything major I always need both copy AND mod permission.

I tamper with them too much. Usually toss out most of the original textures, link and unlink things in and out, and often break the stuff. I need the ability to pull out a new copy when things go amiss 30 steps into it all.

 

 

[Selene Gregoire]

If it isn't mod/copy I won't buy it. No ands, ifs or buts about it. No trans is understandable. No mod is understandable, in rare circumstances. No copy is not. I'm not about to spend more money to replace a no copy item when SL poofs it into the ether never to be seen again. 

[Pussycat Catnap]

3 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

If it isn't mod/copy I won't buy it. No ands, ifs or buts about it. No trans is understandable. No mod is understandable, in rare circumstances. No copy is not. I'm not about to spend more money to replace a no copy item when SL poofs it into the ether never to be seen again. 

I'm not 100% on that, more like 73.52%...

For example, just the other day I bought a magical staff prop off MP that was a gatcha I already had... no-copy/mod, the person selling it was selling it for I think less than 50L. I needed to make one that would be for wearing in a harness and one held in the hand... two different attachment points and the second needed a little animation and script to keep that animation going...

- Point being... this was a cheap item at a throwaway price, and basically a small single object unscripted (before I went messing with it) thing...

But it's also an example of the kind of scenario where I usually will NOT buy a no-copy item... logically I need multiples of that object, and need the ability to tamper with them. It's just that in this case I could go get 7 of them for the price of a non-gatcha, and they were common enough that plenty of people have old ones up for sale on MP for cheap prices...

A skybox would be a non-starter though.

I strongly recommend against every buying something on that order of complexity if it's no-copy - mod or not.

In my case and many other folks these days, a second reason: I am at 1:1 scale, and builders of homes and furniture have no scale consistency... I always have to shrink every building or furniture item I buy down to anywhere from 80% to 40% of it's original size to have it's size actually match the dimensions an object of it's name should have... everytime I buy rezzed objects, it's a trip to google for something like "standard counter height", then I compare the number there to the number for the object, and use a linkset resizer script I have to scale it to exact 1:1 scale... That invariably breaks something half the time... and I have to get out a copy and do it again more carefully.

 

[Selene Gregoire]

Just now, Pussycat Catnap said:

I'm not 100% on that, more like 73.52%...

For example, just the other day I bought a magical staff prop off MP that was a gatcha I already had... no-copy/mod, the person selling it was selling it for I think less than 50L. I needed to make one that would be for wearing in a harness and one held in the hand... two different attachment points and the second needed a little animation and script to keep that animation going...

- Point being... this was a cheap item at a throwaway price, and basically a small single object unscripted (before I went messing with it) thing...

But it's also an example of the kind of scenario where I usually will NOT buy a no-copy item... logically I need multiples of that object, and need the ability to tamper with them. It's just that in this case I could go get 7 of them for the price of a non-gatcha, and they were common enough that plenty of people have old ones up for sale on MP for cheap prices...

A skybox would be a non-starter though.

I strongly recommend against every buying something on that order of complexity if it's no-copy - mod or not.

In my case and many other folks these days, a second reason: I am at 1:1 scale, and builders of homes and furniture have no scale consistency... I always have to shrink every building or furniture item I buy down to anywhere from 80% to 40% of it's original size to have it's size actually match the dimensions an object of it's name should have... everytime I buy rezzed objects, it's a trip to google for something like "standard counter height", then I compare the number there to the number for the object, and use a linkset resizer script I have to scale it to exact 1:1 scale... That invariably breaks something half the time... and I have to get out a copy and do it again more carefully.

 

OK. I'll put it in plain English. 

I don't do gachas because no copy/no mod.

Quite bluntly, I will not purchase anything in SL that is no mod/no copy. 

As a former creator, I do know that many creators use a lot of excuses as to why they set perms for no mod and no copy. Excuses, not reasons. There really are less than a handful of reasons to make an item no copy and no mod. Most creators do not make those few items.

[Sasy Scarborough]

55 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Just wanted to note that not ALL gachas are no mod. ALL of MINE are MOD - NC - TRANS. 

 

 

Chic so true, sorry about that I was generaly speaking based on his needs for skyboxes. 

I buy a lot of those gachas myself as I just use them as props, not actual decor in a home. So it does not really matter to me about the no copy except for things you need to copy like chairs etc. I usually pay with no intent on the final product, just play a few times to get some pieces just in case. If it was to actually kit out a home, then definitely MOD/Copy all the way

Edited January 6, 2019 by Sasy Scarborough

[Marianne Little]

14 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I want to dare you to make a thread calling out "that one brand you love to hate" and see how it goes, but... I'd probably get blamed for it too.

I don't care to debate something as open-ended and common-sense as forum guidelines though, you win.

It has been very harsh calling out on TMP mesh bodies and heads in the avatar section. It's not removed, and I think it is because it's not a personal grudge, and it is given reasons for it.

 

[Marianne Little]

12 hours ago, Sasy Scarborough said:

Chic so true, sorry about that I was generaly speaking based on his needs for skyboxes. 

I buy a lot of those gachas myself as I just use them as props, not actual decor in a home. So it does not really matter to me about the no copy except for things you need to copy like chairs etc. I usually pay with no intent on the final product, just play a few times to get some pieces just in case. If it was to actually kit out a home, then definitely MOD/Copy all the way

Only things like curtains and dining chairs is really needed in large numbers. (for me)

Schultz Broz has a rezzing pad for gachas that exchanges them to a copy/no trans. Same has DRD.

I am so slow discovering things in Firestorm, but I could search, let us say the letter "a" and then filter it to show just matches with that letter on THIS parcel only, and with TRANSFER permissions.

Returned only results like gachas, the few prims I made myself, and 3D trees ( that I bought no copy).

Repeat this a few times with different letters, then select a large clump of items on the land and delete it. If you get message that at least 1 item is no copy, then you still miss one no copy.

It is tedious but it's also tempting, since gachas 1 or 2 years back is sold for almost nothing. So unless something is really expensive, not trouble replacing it.

[Marianne Little]

On 1/5/2019 at 4:58 PM, Theresa Tennyson said:

Mr. Neva seems to be using the term "skybox" in this thread largely to refer to "a natural environment, including walkable land, that can be put in the air." Which, of course, isn't what the vast majority of people in Second Life think of as a skybox, but it's his thread.

It sounds like placing out a platform - like base, and then any house you want on it, and decorate it as you would on the ground. The "skybox" part here must be that the base should look nice too, and be low Li.

2 options: Spend Li on the base that you will only see if you fly under it, or just go for a simple base with a neutral texture on the underside, like sky and clouds.

And then put anything on it. The Rainforest Hideaway should be a nice one? https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Scarlet-Creative-Rainforest-Hideaway/15538959