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49 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I

I'll get to you later. Right now I'm lost to the singing bowls and the drums.

My cats moved out.

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Oh I just have one pet peeve. I really can't stand people who are annoyed by either of the following: empty profiles, 'unreadable' fonts, unmatching body parts, flexi prims, AO-less avis, jazz hands,

DJs/hosts teleport inviting their "friends"

I'm not apportioning blame for what's been going on in this forum recently, because that's one thing that appears to start a thread on its downward spiral. Like many of us here - I am absolutely

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I have listened to glass harmonica recitals several times in my life and have always been fascinated by the beauty of the music.  The YouTube videos in this thread are lovely.  I could play them again and again. Do they make me tingle or see colors or have other kinesthetic experiences?  No, but they are beautiful.  I have never had the tingly feeling that several people in this thread have talked about.  The closest I've come to something I can imagine as "tingly", I think, has come each time I have heard Japanese Taiko drumming.  I've had the pleasure of their performances two times in Japan and three times in the US.  Each time I have found myself totally engulfed in the rhythms, as if they are inside me as much as outside.  I suspect that's largely because they are very loud -- loud enough that you can feel the air throbbing deep through you.  But no tingling. Perhaps I am defective, or not worthy.  None of the other links in this thread do anything for me either.

I've listened just now to a handful of YouTube performances, but none gives me the feeling of being surrounded by the drumming -- probably because I am not.  YouTube is a pale substitute for a live performance.

 

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32 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

But no tingling. Perhaps I am defective, or not worthy.  None of the other links in this thread do anything for me either.

I haven't listened to a lot of ASMR videos yet, but those I have watched did nothing for/to me. I've only had that faint ear nuzzle feeling way back in engineering school, which also brought memories of Mom doing my hair.

I'm not a touchy feely person, so the "grooming" connection of ASMR might not work well on me. Several posters have mentioned that ASMR effects present only when wearing headphones. This was my experience during the speech recognition tests. I only felt the ear nuzzle sensation if I was wearing headphones. I immediately understood why that was. When the voice was played to me through speakers, stereo separation was minimal, as sound from both speakers reached both ears. That tells the brain that the sound source must be fairly far away, certainly not within inches of the ears. With headphones on, stereo separation is as good as the recording, potentially 100%. That can only happen if the sound source is exceptionally close to your ear. It seemed fairly obvious to me that my brain was reacting to a voice that was coming from someone who's lips were practically touching my ear. Hence the "tingle".

I'll have to do some more reading, but I suspect that high stereo separation is a significant factor in this.

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47 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

I have listened to glass harmonica recitals several times in my life and have always been fascinated by the beauty of the music.  The YouTube videos in this thread are lovely.  I could play them again and again. Do they make me tingle or see colors or have other kinesthetic experiences?  No, but they are beautiful.  I have never had the tingly feeling that several people in this thread have talked about.  The closest I've come to something I can imagine as "tingly", I think, has come each time I have heard Japanese Taiko drumming.  I've had the pleasure of their performances two times in Japan and three times in the US.  Each time I have found myself totally engulfed in the rhythms, as if they are inside me as much as outside.  I suspect that's largely because they are very loud -- loud enough that you can feel the air throbbing deep through you.  But no tingling. Perhaps I am defective, or not worthy.  None of the other links in this thread do anything for me either.

I've listened just now to a handful of YouTube performances, but none gives me the feeling of being surrounded by the drumming -- probably because I am not.  YouTube is a pale substitute for a live performance.

 

your not defective at all, it affects each person differently most of the yt asmr videos do nothing for me. headphones on or off.

 

32 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I haven't listened to a lot of ASMR videos yet, but those I have watched did nothing for/to me. I've only had that faint ear nuzzle feeling way back in engineering school, which also brought memories of Mom doing my hair.

I'm not a touchy feely person, so the "grooming" connection of ASMR might not work well on me. Several posters have mentioned that ASMR effects present only when wearing headphones. This was my experience during the speech recognition tests. I only felt the ear nuzzle sensation if I was wearing headphones. I immediately understood why that was. When the voice was played to me through speakers, stereo separation was minimal, as sound from both speakers reached both ears. That tells the brain that the sound source must be fairly far away, certainly not within inches of the ears. With headphones on, stereo separation is as good as the recording, potentially 100%. That can only happen if the sound source is exceptionally close to your ear. It seemed fairly obvious to me that my brain was reacting to a voice that was coming from someone who's lips were practically touching my ear. Hence the "tingle".

I'll have to do some more reading, but I suspect that high stereo separation is a significant factor in this.

headphones can enhance it but are not needed for it. it really just depends upon the person.

i some times get the effect from tv shows or other events that trigger that willy nilly goosebump feeling

ever watch a tv show or movie and the villain gets trounced so thoroughly by the good guy and you get shivers running up your spine in enjoyment seeing that happen? that too is part of asmr.

ever listen to some really spooky horror movie music and suddenly feel the hair on your neck begin to stand up, that too is a form of asmr.

asmr is not just limited to the good feelings.

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2 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

ever watch a tv show or movie and the villain gets trounced so thoroughly by the good guy and you get shivers running up your spine in enjoyment seeing that happen? that too is part of asmr.

ever listen to some really spooky horror movie music and suddenly feel the hair on your neck begin to stand up, that too is a form of asmr.

No, I'm afraid not.  I have often wondered what that must feel like.

And yes, @Madelaine McMasters, I have used headphones while watching those YouTube videos.  The sound is more compelling, but not tingle-inducing.

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14 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:
22 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

to imagine our little human minds are so great because we can dissect the Universe, along with the accompanying ego charge which comes from asserting our control through manipulation, is the biggest delusion there is. While we can learn some aspects of how the Universe operates, this does not mean we can ever know just WHAT the Universe is (via scientifically dissecting it).

How is it a delusion to limit your certainty to only those things that can be verified? I agree that it's likely we'll figure everything out. That doesn't compel me to invent explanations that can't be falsified and call it a day. I am content to say "I don't know" when I don't know.

First, a very quick definition of Scientism:
'Scientism" is a name for the view that science is the only reliable source of knowledge.

Limiting certainty to only those things that can be verified is not the mind of a Scientist  -- you are engaging in Scientism, and Scientism is delusional because it thinks it knows the absolute truth via the methods it has developed to ascertain reality. I mean, what could be wrong with this picture -- humans devising forms of measurement with all the limitations therein, and then believing only their system of measurement can detect reality? 

In contrast, a Scientist has an open mind regarding reality, and while valuing the confirmation experiments can bring with their chosen methods they don't automatically dismiss whatever has not been proven. Yet you do this all the time -- whenever you find discussion regarding a spiritual dimension to reality you jump in to say they're delusional because what they posit or believe has not been proven. I can't count the times you've done this to me, although I've welcomed the (usually short) discussions which evolved. And while I don't begrudge anyone having an opinion regarding whether they believe there is a spiritual or more unseen dimension to existence, since you always position yourself as some sort of 'super Scientist' you need to act within those rules.

And so, how have you actually been content to say you 'don't know what you don't know' in comparison to these apparently delusional others who simply invent explanations unlike yourself.   In other words, how do you know that what some have determined to be reality is only an invention -- perhaps they've had valid experiences which confirm their version of reality, or perhaps their belief is totally imaginary. We simply don't know.

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15 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

How is it a delusion to limit your certainty to only those things that can be verified? I agree that it's likely we'll figure everything out. That doesn't compel me to invent explanations that can't be falsified and call it a day. I am content to say "I don't know" when I don't know.

..so long as you remain UNCERTAIN about those things that cannot be verified, well then..fine.

Most people these days, would lie to your face rather than say "I don't know".

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13 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

not tingle-inducing.

I see a lot of posts referring to ASMR as inducing "tingles".  I have read about a LOT more effects than just "tingles".  So, what gives? Are people too lazy to write about the other effects, or maybe they don't know?  For anyone who asks, "Google is your friend". 

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14 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I see a lot of posts referring to ASMR as inducing "tingles".  I have read about a LOT more effects than just "tingles".  So, what gives?

My hypothesis regarding ASMR at this point in time, is that all sound emits a vibration (or perhaps you could say sound IS vibration), and that we can (if sensitive) be aware of vibrating along with the sounds we are hearing.  Even if there is no sound in the viewed scene, the scenario on video is depicting an experience in RL where those sounds/experiences were present causing vibrational changes, and so we vibrate now as we did then. And even if deaf we do pick up vibrations through our body, and viewing the caring, nurturing scene would cause a vibrating experience.

*  this theory does encompass the grooming theory too. I'm only saying that our bodies react in certain ways to a grooming experience in RL, vibrating to perhaps the lower frequencies of relaxation.

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9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I see a lot of posts referring to ASMR as inducing "tingles".  I have read about a LOT more effects than just "tingles".  So, what gives?

Having had no experience with "tingles" or anything else that people in this thread have described -- up to and including kinesthesia -- I have no idea what gives.  I'm curious and open to learning more while personally skeptical of anecdotal accounts.  That's my own version of "I don't know."

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27 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

First, a very quick definition of Scientism:
'Scientism" is a name for the view that science is the only reliable source of knowledge.

Limiting certainty to only those things that can be verified is not the mind of a Scientist  -- you are engaging in Scientism, and Scientism is delusional because it thinks it knows the absolute truth via the methods it has developed to ascertain reality. I mean, what could be wrong with this picture -- humans devising forms of measurement with all the limitations therein, and then believing only their system of measurement can detect reality? 

In contrast, a Scientist has an open mind regarding reality, and while valuing the confirmation experiments can bring with their chosen methods they don't automatically dismiss whatever has not been proven. Yet you do this all the time -- whenever you find discussion regarding a spiritual dimension to reality you jump in to say they're delusional because what they posit or believe has not been proven. I can't count the times you've done this to me, although I've welcomed the (usually short) discussions which evolved. And while I don't begrudge anyone having an opinion regarding whether they believe there is a spiritual or more unseen dimension to existence, since you always position yourself as some sort of 'super Scientist' you need to act within those rules.

And so, how have you actually been content to say you 'don't know what you don't know' in comparison to these apparently delusional others who simply invent explanations unlike yourself.   In other words, how do you know that what some have determined to be reality is only an invention -- perhaps they've had valid experiences which confirm their version of reality, or perhaps their belief is totally imaginary. We simply don't know.

The explanation you gave for ASMR contradicts the evidence and, I think, misunderstands the "resonance" theories. Humans can't hear the frequencies you claim resonate with brainwaves, this is a demonstrable fact. Most of the resonant frequency and/or frequency = thought theories were pretty thoroughly debunked, except in India where politicians seems to favor the theory over the science, with . FMRI analysis of people exposed to ASMR does not support your brainwave theory, but rather shows activity in specific regions of the brain.

If you are going to advance some alternative theory, you have an obligation to understand that theory better than I do. Where's your evidence that human hearing extends down to the frequencies you cited for brainwave activity? Where's your evidence that the audio signal chain used to produce ASMR videos (most of which are produced by amateurs)  and the playback equipment (mostly mass market stuff) can pass those frequencies? Bring me that evidence and I'll consider it.

If there is validity to your theory, you haven't demonstrated a grasp of it. Humans cannot hear the low frequencies you claim resonate with brainwaves. Patterns of sounds might. There's a lot of research out there regarding aural pattern recognition and memory recall. Rhythm, tempo, chord structure, progression, predictability, all these things have significant effect on us. I've experienced the effects of all those things. You do yourself a tremendous disservice to posit an explanation that ignores all this (sometimes ancient) knowledge.

You might also look into photosensitive epilepsy for some insight into frequency based neural effects. Sensitive sufferers can be triggered by flashing patterns in television broadcasts, which themselves (until the advent of LCD screens) flash at 50/60Hz. The seizures are not caused by the high frequency flashing (the equivalent of audio frequencies or tones) but by blinking patterns in the transmitted image (the equivalent of rhythms), with blink rates in the range of interest to your theory. I don't know if there is any relationship between ASMR and PSE, but I'd entertain the idea.

I've given you avenues down which you might advance your argument. Take them or leave them. The burden of proof of your theory is not on my shoulders, it's on yours.

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4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

My hypothesis regarding ASMR at this point in time, is that all sound emits a vibration (or perhaps you could say sound IS vibration), and that we can (if sensitive) be aware of vibrating along with the sounds we are hearing.  Even if there is no sound in the viewed scene, the scenario on video is depicting an experience in RL where those sounds/experiences were present causing vibrational changes, and so we vibrate now as we did then. And even if deaf we do pick up vibrations through our body, and viewing the caring, nurturing scene would cause a vibrating experience.

..Everything is a vibration..

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10 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Having had no experience with "tingles" or anything else that people in this thread have described -- up to and including kinesthesia -- I have no idea what gives.  I'm curious and open to learning more while personally skeptical of anecdotal accounts.  That's my own version of "I don't know."

I don't think some people are sensitive to the stimuli, or they are sensitive to some stimuli and not others.  I base this on my recent intensification of meditative practices of late, where we chant Sanskrit (a vibrational language), particularly 'Aum' or 'Om'.  I can't believe how much more I vibrate to music now...it's amazing...I didn't notice this until joining this thread and participating. I hadn't listened to much music since the Yoga practices intensified in recent weeks.

* of course this vibrational intensification could be a result of simply losing my mind due to all the chaos in the world of late  :)  In other words, I could just be losing my mind...

Anyway, all this is to say it can change!  Do not lose hope that you are shut out forever from 'the tingle'.  lol

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9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:
13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

My hypothesis regarding ASMR at this point in time, is that all sound emits a vibration (or perhaps you could say sound IS vibration), and that we can (if sensitive) be aware of vibrating along with the sounds we are hearing.  Even if there is no sound in the viewed scene, the scenario on video is depicting an experience in RL where those sounds/experiences were present causing vibrational changes, and so we vibrate now as we did then. And even if deaf we do pick up vibrations through our body, and viewing the caring, nurturing scene would cause a vibrating experience.

..Everything is a vibration..

Don't say that to Maddy......   :)

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16 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..so long as you remain UNCERTAIN about those things that cannot be verified, well then..fine.

Most people these days, would lie to your face rather than say "I don't know".

How much certainty have I expressed in my thinking about the causes of ASMR?

How much certainty has Luna expressed in hers?

How much evidence have I brought to bear to refute claims made by Luna? (Frequency response of human hearing vs frequency range of brainwave activity).

How much evidence has Luna brought to refute anything I've brought before you?

 

I've seen mention of people getting "tingles" from other aural stimulation, such as music in scary movies. I don't know if that would qualify as ASMR, or more a case of simply planting dread in the audience. Had you been raised watching movies in which happy things were always accompanied by eerie music, would you tingle, or get warm and fuzzy when hearing eerie music?

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1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:
14 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

..Everything is a vibration..

That is effectively meaningless. Do you propose to advance an argument with it?

Albert Einstein said: “Everything is vibration”

There is no solidity in the universe. A form that appears solid is actually created by an underlying vibration. Vibrations express themselves in corresponding geometrical figures and in this way build up crystals that are the expression of vibration. Crystals collectively form a body of an element according to its particular vibration. The forms of snowflakes and faces of flowers take on their shape because they are responding to some sound in nature. Crystals, plants, and human beings are music that has taken on visible form.

For example: Scatter some very fine sand over the head of a drum. Then take a tuning fork and strike a note just above the drum head causing it to vibrate. The sand would shift and assume a geometrical figure corresponding to the particular note that was played. When another is sounded, the sand will shift and assume another figure. This shows that every vibration produces a corresponding geometric form

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22 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

validity

Let's take, for example, Native Americans who claim to communicate with animals. In one of my retreat experiences with a shaman and friend, a kind of vision quest where I was to go deeper within myself and make some important changes, we were returning to her home, and she remarked that some crows sitting on the phone wires (most notable one who was dead and hanging upside down by a claw) was a sign that something or other would be happening to her.
What are we to make of this?
She could have been having some sort of delusion, imagining a message was being sent by the outside world (via the crows). Or she could have had a connection with the world we don't understand (perhaps we might in the future, via experiments, understand how the world is connected in ways not known to us now).

What do you make of this?

 

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Just now, Luna Bliss said:

Albert Einstein said: “Everything is vibration”

There is no solidity in the universe. A form that appears solid is actually created by an underlying vibration. Vibrations express themselves in corresponding geometrical figures and in this way build up crystals that are the expression of vibration. Crystals collectively form a body of an element according to its particular vibration. The forms of snowflakes and faces of flowers take on their shape because they are responding to some sound in nature. Crystals, plants, and human beings are music that has taken on visible form.

For example: Scatter some very fine sand over the head of a drum. Then take a tuning fork and strike a note just above the drum head causing it to vibrate. The sand would shift and assume a geometrical figure corresponding to the particular note that was played. When another is sounded, the sand will shift and assume another figure. This shows that every vibration produces a corresponding geometric form

As an engineer, I bristle at the inefficiency of using 156 words to convey the same meaninglessness as Love's original four.

I await a sensible theory of how vibrations you cannot hear (and cannot be sent to you from elsewhere via the mechanism of YouTube) resonate with brainwaves.

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10 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

That is effectively meaningless. Do you propose to advance an argument with it?

Um..wave vs. particle theory. Particles "vibrate", and again if you see them as waves, you can also see a "pattern" in the wave representation..

I hadn't planned on needing any argument because you are so smart. Guess I failed this time!

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Let's take, for example, Native Americans who claim to communicate with animals. In one of my retreat experiences with a shaman and friend, a kind of vision quest where I was to go deeper within myself and make some important changes, we were returning to her home, and she remarked that some crows sitting on the phone wires (most notable one who was dead and hanging upside down by a claw) was a sign that something or other would be happening to her.
What are we to make of this?
She could have been having some sort of delusion, imagining a message was being sent by the outside world (via the crows). Or she could have had a connection with the world we don't understand (perhaps we might in the future, via experiments, understand how the world is connected in ways not known to us now).

What do you make of this?

One percent of American moms claim to have given virgin birth.

What do you make of that?

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2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I await a sensible theory of how vibrations you cannot hear (and cannot be sent to you from elsewhere via the mechanism of YouTube) resonate with brainwaves.

I can change my brainwaves at will.  It's very easy in meditation, especially. And if I viewed a scene where a person is being nurtured my brainwaves would change, even if no sound was present in the nurturing scene.

Resonating is a bit more complex.  We don't have to include it in this theory of how ASMR works. We don't have to entertain the notion of 'spooky action at a distance'.

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