Halloween - Bored with it already ?

[Phorumities]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I take it that you're not really criticizing Kwanzaa, and so I'm not posting this to "correct" you in any way.

But I do think that calling it a "synthetic" holiday implicitly imposes a value judgement that suggests that it is "artificial" and hence maybe a little "fake," where others aren't.

Arguably, though, nearly all holidays are "synthetic" in this way, at least to some degree. Christmas and Easter, for instance, may "mark" something, but those "somethings" are hardly verifiably historical "fact," and even if they were, the dates chosen to mark them were quite arbitrarily picked by the Church for reasons that actually have nothing to do with "fact." I'm not a Christian: i don't believe in the resurrection of Christ, and so Easter Sunday is completely synthetic so far as I'm concerned. What separates most holidays from Kwanzaa is mostly the length of historical time that they've been observed (and even that is frequently less, with regard to many holidays, than many of us think).

As for "self-love" . . . well, most holidays are at least implicitly designed to support, cement, and entrench a particular culture/religion/ideology. Columbus Day, which is (so far as I know) recognized only in the US, "celebrates" the so-called "discovery" of the Americas by one particular ethnic/geographical group: it is very explicitly an imposition of a Eurocentric view of the relationship between cultures and ethnicities. And, to many First Nations people, it's not merely "synthetic": it's an outright unethical lie, and pure propaganda.

 

Considering it honors the start of over 500 years of genocide against the native Americans,  I'm not too sure it's something anyone should be too proud of, but on the other hand, it does mark, for good or bad, Europeans main entry into the history of the new world, and our subsequent domination of it.

The entry of Europe into the west was a tide no indigenous people ever had a hope of stopping.

It is my honest wish that The American government had dealt honestly and fairly with the native tribes, not breaking every treaty they ever made.

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Phorumities
fixed word order

[Chase01]

Talk about thread derailment. How did we go from talking about Halloween to genocide amongst native Americans?

[Phorumities]

Now I'm waiting for some trendy leftist to accuse me of cultural imperialism for denouncing other cultures for still owning slaves.

Hey, all cultures are equal right? So if they own slaves it's just what they do and  I shouldn't impose my value judgements on them

[Phorumities]

1 minute ago, Chase01 said:

Talk about thread derailment. How did we go from talking about Halloween to genocide amongst native Americans?

Ummm someone mentioned Columbus day?

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Now I'm waiting for some trendy leftist to accuse me of cultural imperialism for denouncing other cultures for still owning slaves.

Hey, all cultures are equal right? So if they own slaves it's just what they do and  I shouldn't impose my value judgements on them

I'm not sure if I qualify as "trendy" or not -- I doubt that I've been that for at least a decade -- but I can tell you that I, along with most of the progressives I know, are very interested in human rights abuses around the world. Most (myself included) are members of Amnesty International, or PEN, or similar organizations that are very much focused upon human rights in the so-called "developing nations." And the feminists I know, and with whom I work, are very much exercised about the status of women in places like Saudi Arabia and India.

 

[Pamela Galli]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm not sure if I qualify as "trendy" or not -- I doubt that I've been that for at least a decade -- but I can tell you that I, along with most of the progressives I know, are very interested in human rights abuses around the world. Most (myself included) are members of Amnesty International, or PEN, or similar organizations that are very much focused upon human rights in the so-called "developing nations." And the feminists I know, and with whom I work, are very much exercised about the status of women in places like Saudi Arabia and India.

 

Yes Forumites got her sides switched. 

Oops.

[Phorumities]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'm not sure if I qualify as "trendy" or not -- I doubt that I've been that for at least a decade -- but I can tell you that I, along with most of the progressives I know, are very interested in human rights abuses around the world. Most (myself included) are members of Amnesty International, or PEN, or similar organizations that are very much focused upon human rights in the so-called "developing nations." And the feminists I know, and with whom I work, are very much exercised about the status of women in places like Saudi Arabia and India.

 

Yes but I've read more than once in here  posts saying all cultures are of equal worth, there is no right or wrong and that we shouldn't impose our standards on other peoples and cultures.

So which is it? Is our western culture superior in certain ways, or not?

[Phorumities]

3 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Yes Forumites got her sides switched. 

Oops.

keep reading sweetie

[Phorumities]

It's the weekend, never a good time to be controversial on the forums because if a Linden Employee has to drag themselves out of bed to investigate forum AR's its guaranteed bans will follow. 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Yes but I've read more than once in here  posts saying all cultures are of equal worth, there is no right or wrong and that we shouldn't impose our standards on other peoples and cultures.

So which is it? Is our western culture superior in certain ways, or not?

To begin with, I reject your insistence that this is a pure binary. The world is waaaaay more complicated than that.

I also dislike the term "superior": it has a rather ugly history.

But are there ways in which western culture is "better" than some others? Well, duh. Yes. But remember that being "better" is often a function of wealth and power: it's relatively easy to be "better" when you are top of the heap. And the foundations for that wealth and power, both historical and contemporary, are themselves highly suspect.

For instance, it is relatively easier to live "well" and cheaply in the west, because we have inexpensive goods, such as food and clothing, more readily available for those living in, or near the level of poverty. And one of the reasons for that is because our corporations are not shy about exploiting sweatshop labour in other nations.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Scylla Rhiadra
Missing verb!

[Phorumities]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

To begin with, I reject your insistence that this a pure binary. The world is waaaaay more complicated than that.

I also dislike the term "superior": it has a rather ugly history.

But are there ways in which western culture is "better" than some others? Well, duh. Yes. But remember that being "better" is often a function of wealth and power: it's relatively easy to be "better" when you are top of the heap. And the foundations for that wealth and power, both historical and contemporary, are themselves highly suspect.

For instance, it is relatively easier to live "well" and cheaply in the west, because we have inexpensive goods, such as food and clothing, more readily available for those living in, or near the level of poverty. And one of the reasons for that is because our corporations are not shy about exploiting sweatshop labour in other nations.

In some other countries, sweatshop labour for pennies a day is the only alternative to starving in the streets, because unlike America, people in other countries DO die of starvation.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

In some other countries, sweatshop labour for pennies a day is the only alternative to starving in the streets, because unlike America, people in other countries DO die of starvation.

Well, yes. But the conditions that make poverty so endemic in those nations (including paying pennies a day, instead of a living wage, to third world labourers) did not themselves spring into being out of nowhere: they are a function, at least in part, of colonialism, capitalism, and neoliberalism.

And others here have recently pointed out to you that there is in fact starvation and malnutrition in the west, although there is no question of course that it is less prevalent here than in many other places. And, again, there are historical and economic reasons for that.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

We should probably stop this derail now, however, before we annoy too many people.

Thanks for the engagement, Phorumities. ?

[Phorumities]

7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, yes. But the conditions that make poverty so endemic in those nations (including paying pennies a day, instead of a living wage, to third world labourers) did not themselves spring into being out of nowhere: they are a function, at least in part, of colonialism, capitalism, and neoliberalism.

And others here have recently pointed out to you that there is in fact starvation and malnutrition in the west, although there is no question of course that it is less prevalent here than in many other places. And, again, there are historical and economic reasons for that.

deleted,  discussion is over

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Phorumities

[Phorumities]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

We should probably stop this derail now, however, before we annoy too many people.

Thanks for the engagement, Phorumities. ?

Certainly. Thank you for the discussion. It's a refreshing change not to be called names.

[Pamela Galli]

2 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Certainly. Thank you for the discussion. It's a refreshing change not to be called names.

What names?  I didn’t know people were name calling in this forum.

[ChinRey]

3 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

I didn’t know people were name calling in this forum.

Well, I've called you Pamela several times on the forums. Shouldn't I?

[Pamela Galli]

6 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Well, I've called you Pamela several times on the forums. Shouldn't I?

You can, but mostly only Brits call me that. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

You can, but mostly only Brits call me that. 

What do Canadians call you?

(ETA: On Halloween -- need to keep this on topic!)

[Pamela Galli]

4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What do Canadians call you?

(ETA: On Halloween -- need to keep this on topic!)

Americans and Canadians almost cannot bring themselves to call me Pamela, in any life. It’s like calling someone Catherine or Deborah: it can be done but it just seems wrong. 

ETA on Halloween.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Pamela Galli

[Cindy Evanier]

1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

Americans and Canadians almost cannot bring themselves to call me Pamela, in any life. It’s like calling someone Catherine or Deborah: it can be done but it just seems wrong. 

ETA on Halloween.

This Brit makes a note to call you Pammy  "on Halloween"  or Pammy On Halloween  or Pam Halloween or Halloween Pam

[Blush Bravin]

1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

Americans and Canadians almost cannot bring themselves to call me Pamela, in any life. It’s like calling someone Catherine or Deborah: it can be done but it just seems wrong. 

ETA on Halloween.

My RL name is Deborah. Most of my friends and colleagues from my teaching days call me Deborah. My close family members still call me Debi. I'm in Texas. It can happen even in the US.

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Americans and Canadians almost cannot bring themselves to call me Pamela, in any life. It’s like calling someone Catherine or Deborah: it can be done but it just seems wrong. 

The longer versions - or more formal versions - of many names just seem so stuffy, thus many of us abbreviate to try making the conversation more casual.  

 

2 minutes ago, Cindy Evanier said:

This Brit makes a note to call you Pammy  "on Halloween"  or Pammy On Halloween  or Pam Halloween or Halloween Pam

Yep, I vote for Pammy  

Edited October 20, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[ChinRey]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

(ETA: On Halloween -- need to keep this on topic!)

Halloween /haləʊˈiːn/

From old piratish "half o' wine". The last stage of the party when the bar is beginning to run dry and you start to dillute your drinks with water in a desperate attempt to make it last for a little bit longer.

[Cindy Evanier]

Just now, LittleMe Jewell said:

The longer versions - or more formal versions - or many names just seem so stuffy, thus many of us abbreviate to try making the conversation more casual.  

 

Yep, I vote for Pammy  

ETA  Halloween Pammy?  ?