three strikes and your out

[greek Wingtips]

Its time LL took griefers seriously, we had our sim bombed with a script\object that just killed the place and this has not been the first time, could not even find it in pathfinder objects when I finally managed to get rid of it which took ages and spoilt people enjoyment on the sim. 

 

I check the person and it was evident this person a pro griefer and is in SL just for that reason, I wrote a ticket out to LLs about the incident.

But what I like to see is a system whereby 3 strikes and you're out,  if LLs get a complaint and it can be proven then once that person gets three complaints of deliberately causing mayhem from 3 different locations and incidences naming him or her   he\she should be a warning and on the 2nd they will be banned and I mean banned via IP address to other. 

How would you solve this, and please I do not want the do-gooders coming out, " its life" 

Edited June 1, 2018 by greek Wingtips

[Alwin Alcott]

30 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

How would you solve this, and please I do not want the do-gooders coming out, " its life" 

if you put it on a forum you can't restrict who, and what is written. If you do that you limit others in their opinion, and kill the discussion.

 

As far i know, if a griefer gets cought he doesn't get 3 strikes out, but is just out. You will make it even better for them 

IP bans are quite useless.. lots of people don't have a static one, and if they have, chance is big it will renew when rebooting the modem. And it's always possible to use a VPN.

What you did is the right way, clean up and report.

 

 

[Callum Meriman]

41 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

How would you solve this

First by not asking for easier sanctions then we have already, three strikes when we have one strike already?! Then, just keep playing whack-a-mole, as we all do.

There is no single technological solution to this. It's a case of

• you need to stay a small target as possible, that always means be boring and don't react.
• you need keep reporting to LL
• they need to keep banning (as they already do)

Three strikes is easier then now, right now a griefer will most often go on the first strike, some will be wiley enough to dodge the hammer for a while, but they all fall eventually.

If you are under constant attack, consider going group only for a week or two, that can help. But... we can never really solve this any more then you can stop weeds growing in your garden.

[greek Wingtips]

I know of a speakers forum that somehow can ban you and if you use another log in name/account  it still bans you so somehow it can with using IP address, Am aware of VPN but that would slow down the user on SL

[Fionalein]

7 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

I know of a speakers forum that somehow can ban you and if you use another log in name/account  it still bans you so somehow it can with using IP address, Am aware of VPN but that would slow down the user on SL

Yes and because of idiots as them I cannot access some forums untill I reconnect my internet - because the morons don't realize many ISPs cycle the IP adresses between users - Think before you demand nonsense!

Side note: Trolls can reconnect and know about it too  - so how much does that help you?

Edited June 1, 2018 by Fionalein

[Stephanie Misfit]

1 hour ago, greek Wingtips said:

But what I like to see is a system whereby 3 strikes and you're out,  if LLs get a complaint and it can be proven then once that person gets three complaints of deliberately causing mayhem from 3 different locations and incidences naming him or her   he\she should be a warning and on the 2nd they will be banned and I mean banned via IP address to other. 

 

LL already IP and hardware bans griefers , but determined griefers know how to get around those bans and come back on new accounts. So I don't know what good your proposed warning system would do if you are dealing with a "pro griefer".

[Paul Hexem]

There's no way to stop someone that's determined to grief, and if ban and ignore isn't enough to stop them, then they're determined.

If they're determined to grief you, you're doing something to make them that way.

It's trivially easy to change your IP and mac address, make a new gmail account, and sign right back into SL.

The solution to griefers in SL is 100% behavioral, not technological.

[greek Wingtips]

Most purchase their destructive scripts from the inventors maybe that's the answer ban all scripts that are designed to cause grief or destruction or make it compulsory deletion of the script in action after 24hrs in use, this should be an LL rule.

Edited June 1, 2018 by greek Wingtips

[Paul Hexem]

3 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

Most purchase their destructive scripts from the inventors maybe that's the answer ban all scripts that are designed to cause grief or destruction or make it compulsory deletion of the script in action after 24hrs in use, this should be an LL rule.

… You don't know how any of this works, do you?

[greek Wingtips]

No but am sure one can ban scripts that sole purpose is to cause mayhem, but I do know that LL can make it a condition for these to have a time deletion on them? 

What I find here on the forums is some folk  argue the toss just for the sake of it,  everyone knows these griefers have caused many decent people to leave Sl , so why is it not being taken seriously 

Edited June 1, 2018 by greek Wingtips

[Paul Hexem]

How would LL know what scripts have the sole purpose of causing mayhem unless they're spending all their time reading every single script in SL that's written? They already throttle certain LSL functions to prevent griefing and people still find work arounds.

Again, there is no technological way to stop determined griefers without paying for a Linden to stand in every sim, 24/7.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, greek Wingtips said:

I know of a speakers forum that somehow can ban you and if you use another log in name/account  it still bans you so somehow it can with using IP address, Am aware of VPN but that would slow down the user on SL

And why would that be a concern to someone who's sole purpose is to be logged in just long enough to crash a sim?

[Talligurl]

2 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

 

IP bans are quite useless.. lots of people don't have a static one, and if they have, chance is big it will renew when rebooting the modem. And it's always possible to use a VPN.

 

and then there are the situations where two people,  maybe siblings, share a computer and one is the ideal SL resident, but the other is a griefer.

[Fionalein]

Btw. there are many way of trolling - requesting "protection" features that hurt normal folks but won't hurt trolls could be seen as an act of trolling too.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Fionalein

[bigmoe Whitfield]

I run a forum,  heavily active forum.   if I do what you suggest and ip ban a person, let's say,  maybe even the whole subnet, because let's just kick ourselves in the butt while we are at it, it would ban those people that get issued the IP from their DYNAMIC ISP.  because static ip's are rare and cost money and,  mostly anybody connecting in todays world is issued a dhcp address that's obtained by their isp to their modem.   so let's say YOUR ip, was used by a random griefer and then LL does this and then oh no I CANT CONNECT, whom you going to blame?  you'll blame LL for taking steps you WANTED them to take.   no. IP address banning in this day and ages does zilch.   change of mac address, change of hardware id,  change of hell even a router, can force a new ip (cable),  oh dsl you say, that's even easier,  goto the modem and release and renew,  oh wait, the other way, windows command prompt, release and renew.     

 

Time to move on from banning by ip/hardware/mac it wont work like it would of 10 years ago.

[greek Wingtips]

Am not a scriptwriter and no nothing about scripting but most of these griefers purchase or obtain the script from the creators, 

Seems either LL do not care or cannot do anything about it if the latter would be good if they inform people of that fact,

The reason I take this seriously is three times this has happened by different griefers and every time I submitted a griefing ticket with photos, print screens of the object and griefers name  and notes of convos with the griefer admitting it and nothing has ever happened. am sure not the only one that's had this done too so, you experts whats the answer then???????

 

[Paul Hexem]

7 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

Am not a scriptwriter and no nothing about scripting

That much was obvious.

8 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

you experts whats the answer then???????

That question was already answered. Mute, ban, move on. Don't feed them with the drama or reactions that they want.

Big arguments, freaking out, making threats (even threats of banning or reporting) is just entertaining them.

[greek Wingtips]

Seems you just dont get it Gadget,  never mind  I knew there be some on the forums with your mindset

[Tari Landar]

TLDR; Take a minute to breathe, use the tools LL gives you, don't fuel the griefers, and know that while you may not think so, things others have previously stated are right on the money. Your "solutions" aren't solutions at all, some aren't even possible, others make no sense mostly because you don't understand the technicalities behind them, or they can easily make the problem worse. 

The long answer...

Take a step back, and breathe a little bit, first and foremost. Right now, you're angry, because you've been griefed, and it's likely going to make listening to anything anyone has to say that doesn't fit your ideal perfect solution mold, quite difficult. Take a step out of your own shoes and into the shoes of LL, or even other posters here, for a minute,

What you have done, personally, by submitting your ARs, is what you are supposed to do, so, so far, so good, you're on the right track towards getting away from griefers, or at least most of them. Now you need to look at other things you can do, some of which I am certain you probably already do, but we'll go over them anyway, for the sake of others reading.  Using the land and group tools afforded you by LL, helps tremendously. Utilize all block, mute, ban options, as well as all other access controls when necessary. Then, once you have exhausted all of those options, and have them in place (remember to not stop using them because it seemed as if it was inefficient, continue using them), sit back and ponder the whys and hows of your interactions with said griefers. Not that I am laying blame on you, or anyone else, I want to make that clear. Look at what you, your group, your visitors, etc,... do/have done to see if anything could even remotely be egging these kinds of people on to the point that someone with nothing better to do will see a challenge. If you find nothing, great, fantastic, keep on doing what you're doing. If, however, you find something...such as this thread, which openly shows a griefer "hey, I get super, super annoyed by griefing, you should keep it up to see how angry/frustrated it will really make me"...as is so often the case, contributing to your problem....stop doing whatever that thing is. Fuel for a fire, nearly always feeds it, and doesn't stifle it, the same applies here.

You may not like to hear it, but everything you've been told previously, is true. It has nothing to do with others' mindsets, or even their opinions...facts are facts. One of those facts is that LL does have rules-that they keep to themselves-about who gets a ban, what type of ban, how long the ban will exist, etc..etc...We may think we know what those rules are, but we don't, and it's for the better that we don't. When we make reports, of course we may feel like nothing is being done(and in some cases,  nothing we can see actually is done), more often than not, something actually IS done, we just don't see it (or don't want to, especially if it happens repeatedly). You can be angry that there isn't a better solution, or set of solutions, all you want, and even argue that what others have said is "not enough", but that won't change the fact that you're wrong. No a VPN will not slow someone down in most instances, but you need to know how and why they work in order to understand that-so that's a convo for another day. Some of the types of bans you have suggested would be ineffective, because they are super easy to get around-again, something you have to know a bit more intimately in order to realize, which of course, not everyone does(and that's ok!!). LL cannot simply ban all scripts-which is what they would need to do in order to remove any possibility that a script could cause mayhem of any sort. That might sound silly to you..."why ban them all when only some are used to grief?", is a likely response to that statement, and the answer is simple....ANY script CAN be used to grief, that's why. However, certain functions that seem to serve no other real purpose have actually been thwarted by LL. No griefers don't typically buy their scripts-I have no idea who told you that, but it's just not true, lol. Most scripts whose primary purpose is to grief or cause trouble in any fashion, are available free to all. 

To be frank, because why not, frank seems nice......

I think your entire attitude towards this issue is fueled entirely by your anger and frustration-and I get that, most probably do-so you're not thinking very clearly. You want a one size fits all solution for a problem that has a multitude of causes and even solutions. You want someone to fix it for you, your land, your group (and hopefully others that are griefed as well) that you just can't have. It's annoying, but the truth is, that most of the tools you need to avoid being griefed are right at your fingertips. No matter how many times you say "I already do all that", it doesn't change the solution. Being mad at other residents for pointing out the flaws in your ideas, solves nothing. Listening to them, however...can solve the vast majority of your griefing problems. 

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, greek Wingtips said:

Seems you just dont get it Gadget,  never mind  I knew there be some on the forums with your mindset

No. You don't get it.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to reliably prevent one person / computer from connecting to SL over the open internet. VPN's are not required.

A tiny amount of knowledge (that I can't divulge on the forums or in SL as that would get me a ban) is all it takes to circumvent the very best LL can do. IT IS TRIVIAL

Case in point, there is one guy who gets banned for posting pedo messages to groups, he gets banned by LL over and over, and he is always back. He never has an account older than 3days. He has made thousands of accounts and been banned thousands of times. There is no way to actually block him that wont random block other entirely unconnected people.

IP bans DO NOT WORK and ARE INEFFECTIVE as they are TRIVIAL to circumvent and can apply the ban to any number of other random people. No VPN required. (You would be seriously annoyed if you were banned from anything because at some point in the past, some random jerk had been naughty while using the IP now assigned to you).

Likewise .. there is no way for LL to identify what a script will do till it does it, and even then .. there is no way to tell the difference between a griefer script and a regular script because there is no way to determine context. What the script is doing is less important than WHY, and that is entirely subjective. (Every single script based grief you can dream up, I can provide you with a 100% legitimate use case for the same LSL functions).

 

At the end of the day, griefers (and whatever tricks they use) are edge cases, and making policy based on edge cases is always terrible policy.

 

Take what steps you can to minimize your attackers ability to make a mess, speed the clean up and don't ever let them know they are getting to you ... like posting about it on the forums with your main account. Make the act of griefing you a pointless waste of time with no payback.

Edited June 1, 2018 by CoffeeDujour

[Pamela Galli]

2 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Case in point, there is one guy who gets banned for posting pedo messages to groups, he gets banned by LL over and over, and he is always back. He never has an account older than 3days. He has made thousands of accounts and been banned thousands of times. There is no way to actually block him that wont random block other entirely unconnected people.

May be right, but the guy recently who was bragging here about his griefing sprees, inworld and in the forum, and issuing insults to various races and groups, was smacked down By mods, apparently for good, as that was the last we heard from him.

Those who have thwarted these grease stains of humanity do not always share methods publicly. I don’t.

[Coffee Pancake]

He just learnt not to brag about it on the forums and lost an account for his trouble. Doesn't for one second mean he didn't come right back or that there is some secret sauce to keep people out.

[Hoshi Kenin]

16 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

Its time LL took griefers seriously, we had our sim bombed with a script\object that just killed the place and this has not been the first time, could not even find it in pathfinder objects when I finally managed to get rid of it which took ages and spoilt people enjoyment on the sim. 

 

I check the person and it was evident this person a pro griefer and is in SL just for that reason, I wrote a ticket out to LLs about the incident.

But what I like to see is a system whereby 3 strikes and you're out,  if LLs get a complaint and it can be proven then once that person gets three complaints of deliberately causing mayhem from 3 different locations and incidences naming him or her   he\she should be a warning and on the 2nd they will be banned and I mean banned via IP address to other. 

How would you solve this, and please I do not want the do-gooders coming out, " its life" 

Really, you didn't honestly expect anything but mediocre variations of 'it's life, just fly off to another sim where unicorns and puppies play merrily' from the forumites, did you?  

And yes, LL do not appear to give a monkey's about griefing; not even when it occasionally embarrasses even themselves, like the infamous Torley YouTube tutorial TP into a griefing happening.... c/w swift exit, or the (admittedly amusing) millionaire SL estate agent Chung's self-pat-on-the-back-look-how-great-I-am-doing showcase lecture event, which was griefed most efficiently with flying phalli.   These gems are probably still on YouTube, along with a myriad griefing videos from the sad spectacles who get off on doing the actual griefing.  One in particular was slightly disturbing, involving - if I recall correctly -  a 14  year old girl being  griefed in a sim, on voice, ending with her father coming into the room and immediately (and wisely) ending the griefing fun (and any subsequent enjoyment she may have gotten out of SL, as that was almost certainly the end of SL for her!).   Indeed, this was - unless I am much mistaken - once the subject of a post here in the forums, way back......with more than a fair few of the feeble brained forumites blaming the 14 year old or her father...!  Ya couldn't make it up lol.

Tools could, and should have been at the disposal of most residents, with guidance on their use.  Instead, LL, as usual, let residents do the hard work and 'create'  griefing tools, of varying ingenuity and price,  which could be marketed as 'anti' griefing tools, with LL then  pocketing nice wads of cash via their sales.  

And this was back in the day when you actually could see a Linden inworld, from time to time.   Still, perhaps now, Ebbe has got his boys n girls sorting it all out, super swift and efficient like?

 

[Coffee Pancake]

Yeah, that's obviously what's really happening. It's a conspiracy to withhold top secret tools from users so teh ebil LL can make a few cents on the dollar with sales of security orbs.

[Alwin Alcott]

3 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

 It's a conspiracy to withhold top secret tools from users so teh ebil LL can make a few cents on the dollar with sales of security orbs.

nooo don't tell that... now Prok will jump in...