Does LL want to fix SL

[Chic Aeon]

3 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

 This complete lack of respect for skill sets other than "programmer" is built into Linden Lab's DNA. It colours their view of every bug report, every feature request, every interaction with their userbase.

We don't often agree but I am with you on your comments.  This line especially rang true (again). 

They made the Glytch game with high hopes (I am guessing) and the ability to offer it though citizens all over the grid (that hasn't happened as yet after two months of "coming soon").What we HAVE seen is a game that was too difficult at the beginning (thus losing TONS of folks), that had too high a threshold of "power ups" (they have lowered those temporarily now -- happily), and NOWHERE TO GO and NOTHING TO DO after you get the Glytch Gun. 

So my friend is standing around with 10 blue gems (since she was under the impression that the gun cost 25 and not 15) with absolutely nothing to spend them on and no reason to go on playing.  

The Lab (or at least those that make the plans) are very short-sighted. They really need some more folks with long term vision. Even the middle distance would be an improvement. 

I will say that in the instance of the Glytchs most all of my posts here on the forums have been addressed. I am hoping they figure out something to do to keep the game viable. I wrote MY ideas in a long post a week ago or so. 

That being said, we are still here. 

 Not all that many folks jumped ship over Sansar. This is good. 

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Parhelion Palou said:

My response was to greek Wingtips' statement that it was stupid of LL to allow people to create incompatible mesh avatars.

Woops, I must have blinked when I read your post. For some reason I thought you were responding to Penny's post about cotnent creators.

You're right of course. The whole concept of mesh bodies and body parts is nothing but a crude and inefficient hack developed by entrepeneurs who couldn't do a proper avatar uprgade because they didn't have access to the core functionalities of SL. If Linden Lab had wanted a better avatar, they would have had far better ways to do the upgrade.

 

1 hour ago, Parhelion Palou said:

The range of shapes people want is too large for a single mesh avatar to handle.

Hmmmm... Is it just me who thinks that the more mesh avatars wear, the more identical they look?

 

1 hour ago, Parhelion Palou said:

I think Penny's idea of an additional base avatar has merit, though it would fracture the clothing market even more.

I think that's exactly what LL should have done but they shuld have done it at least five years ago. That option ceased to exist the moment they introduced fitted mesh and no amount of discussions, complaints or wishful thinking can ever bring it back.

 

1 hour ago, Parhelion Palou said:

I'm not sure what you're getting at with professional content creators. It sounds like you want LL to either hire or somehow support a group of professionals who would report back to LL on how SL is working in terms of content creation.

That's about it, yes. But I posted it as a reply to the wrong branch of this thread. Maybe better discuss that separately.

Edited November 20, 2017 by ChinRey

[Penny Patton]

1 hour ago, Parhelion Palou said:

I think Penny's idea of an additional base avatar has merit, though it would fracture the clothing market even more.

This is a justifiable concern. My view is that LL should have done this in the beginning, before releasing mesh to the main grid, to avoid fracturing the clothing market. As it is, the clothing market is fractured already, unless you support every mesh body on the market AND the old system body, your potential market reach is far smaller than what it used to be. What's more, most of the popular mesh bodies are no-mod, meaning everyone using those bodies are much more restricted in how they can personalize their appearance. For many casual users with little interest in modding, this doesn't affect them, but SL used to have a thriving modder culture. It still does, but you have to go furry or anime to really see it anymore.

If LL introduced a new, well made, system body with the features I describe, I predict fewer new users would see a need to invest in a mesh body, and those who feel restricted by no-mod bodies would also be inclined to make the switch. It would take time, years, but eventually I expect you would see most SL users utilizing the improved system body. Unfortunately this would mean less business for mesh body makers (aside from those who create specialized bodytypes, such as the super muscular, overweight, or extremely sexualized bodies, not to mention fantasy bodies like aliens and mythic creatures) but it would be a huge boon to clothing makers.

Why would LL want to do this? Well, they have to look to the future or they'll find themselves eventually out of business. A standard avatar addresses several problems. It makes a better impression to new users, meaning more people are likely to actually stay in SL after checking it out. It makes SL more user friendly. The system bodies were always more easy to support and use, especially for new residents. Finally, by being a standard it will reduce the fracturing of the SL clothing market, which will help boost sales for clothing makers. People buy more clothes than bodies and LL gets a cut of those sales, too.

1 hour ago, Parhelion Palou said:

 

It sounds like you want LL to either hire or somehow support a group of professionals who would report back to LL on how SL is working in terms of content creation. I suspect they're already getting some of that from the user meetings they have on various topics.

Here's my take.

The SL userbase represents people of a variety of backgrounds, interests, agendas and desires. Even at the user meetings not all of the feedback LL receives is constructive. Linden Lab also does not always seem to seem to put much faith in user feedback, possibly because they are themselves unable to discern good feedback from misguided feedback. For instance, many SL users, many SL content creators, are in complete denial about how poor use of textures can impact performance. Whenever it is suggested LL do something about excessive texture use, these users become very vocal against it. Many of them are very talented people who produce wonderful looking artwork, but they lack practical experience and fail to realize they are creating content that is the source of the very SL problems we all experience daily.

It's not enough for LL to receive good feedback if no one at LL is capable of judging the quality of that feedback. For every aspect of Second Life, LL needs someone in-house, on the payroll, with actual authority, that LL can trust. So when someone like Oz or Vir shows up at a user meeting for feedback and one SL user, a professional game artist with 12 years of experience, makes a suggestion but then another SL resident, who sells shoes or mesh heads or something in SL but has never done any real graphics work outside of SL and has a very fuzzy, almost entirely incorrect understanding of how 3D rendering works, starts contesting the suggestion, Oz or Vir can turn to their in house graphics authority who can say "This person knows what they're talking about. This other person is spouting gibberish. The idea is good and I can put together a roadmap on how to implement it tomorrow."

[Penny Patton]

Too often, when a new feature or a long overdue bug fix is suggested, people only look at whether or not it will have an immediate impact on the SL experience.

Whenever discussing potential bug fixes or new features for SL we need to take the long view and realize that the impact those features are intended to have will not be realized right away, but over the years after the feature is introduced. This has been the case with every change made to SL.

[Aislin Ceawlin]

7 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Yes, they do want to fix SL and they are actually working hard on it. They are beginning to learn how to work well too - at least the Lindens who stayed with SL all the time are.

But the list of sins of the past is overwhelming and they still make mistakes of course. Despite all the rumours, the Lindens are actually humans - or at least close enough to human they make mistakes.

One factor that seems to cause some extra problems right now, is that it seems several Lindens have returned to SL after working on Sansar. They are of course out of touch with how SL has progressed the last few years and it's going to take a while for them to learn the new ropes.

In any case, don't expect any big changes neither for better or worse anytime soon. No matter what happens, it will be a slow development.

 

7 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

is this inside information or your own thoughts?

I have it on good authority that the Lindens ARE, in fact, actually humans.

[Aislin Ceawlin]

5 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

you are panicking about nothing... the sky is falling... the sky is falling....

 

[greek Wingtips]

8 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Why on earth do you think LL would EVER spend all the time and money to design, rig, script and put put out for FREE a mesh body that is on par with ones we can buy, when the users of SL are doing it for them? 

ETA.. Jebus wept.. They get a cut of each MP sale of a mesh body, plus land rentals for inworld stores.. why would they ever make that go away? 

What are you talking about ???? a base model mesh avatar no one said a body that costs L$1000s who said that????  am talking about a standard mesh body that people get, then if creators want to create new skins modify it and sell, then so be it, but at least it would all be interchangeable and no need for this stupid incompatibility

[Blaise Glendevon]

13 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

Well you seem to think the opposite where is your proof, its well-known people are leaving sl or scaling down, and most of these are the members, 

Lots of things are 'well known' that are not particularly factual. People have been doomsaying around here since before I was even a member. I'm going to need some actual stats on this.

 

11 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

What gives sl its beauty is its reality to be a second life, and it has the ability to create a generic mesh avatar

There is no generic mesh avatar that could meet the needs of all the different creator-designed bodies out now. How are a man who prefers the steroidal glory of the Nyramith Aesthetic body and a man who prefers the slim lines of the male Slink Physique going to use the same 'generic mesh body'. How are a woman who prefers the voluptuous curves of a Slink Hourglass and a woman who prefers the athletic and lean Tonic Fine Body going to find a middle ground? Not to mention all the child avvies, the eight million mesh heads, and furry avatars - just to name a few. A 'generic' mesh body would please no one, frustrate everyone, and be a waste of precious Linden time and effort.

[Solar Legion]

3 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

What are you talking about ???? a base model mesh avatar no one said a body that costs L$1000s who said that????  am talking about a standard mesh body that people get, then if creators want to create new skins modify it and sell, then so be it, but at least it would all be interchangeable and no need for this stupid incompatibility

To make the base even remotely viable their designers would have to ensure it is on par with each of the present mesh bodies on the market right now. Without providing the actual mesh model for users to download, no one will be able to modify it beyond skins and applier level clothing.

Without being paid extra for the work.

That this did not even cross your mind when you made the suggestion is troubling, to be polite.

This does not even take into account how it would be implemented - as an option that users have, an update to the system level body itself or some other implementation method.

There is a system out there that is attempting to solve some of the compatibility issues between the different bodies on the market right now, maybe you've heard of it: Omega. Skins, tattoos and applied clothing can be handled by it and while it does not work with every body out there, that number is growing.

Mesh objects as clothing is a whole other kettle of fish.

To address another of your posts much further up: If you're going to try and play the Year in SL Equals Validity/Real Experience game I am afraid that I have a bit more time than you do logged. Second Life has had an average decline in membership since even my era and there have been several exodus events throughout its history. The present trend is in no way any sharper than the overall trend - there is no exodus event at present either.

You've hammered on this and similar topics in a cyclical manner for quite some time and the fact of the matter is that each time you've not had reality on your side.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, greek Wingtips said:

What are you talking about ???? a base model mesh avatar no one said a body that costs L$1000s who said that????  am talking about a standard mesh body that people get, then if creators want to create new skins modify it and sell, then so be it, but at least it would all be interchangeable and no need for this stupid incompatibility

Do you really not understand that the system body is actually a mesh body? It just has lower vertices and resolution than the ones you can buy. Most of the for sale mesh bodies out there are compatible with the Omega system, as Solar has said. If the body creators were willing to give mesh clothing creators the DAE files of their bodies to model clothing on, the mesh clothing would fit better. Sadly only very few are willing to do this. The ones that do, the clothing fits like a glove. 

What incompatibility are you talking about? Not being able to wear mesh clothing on a slink body that is rigged for  a TMP one? Well duh. They are different base mesh shapes. Kind of like when we had prim clothing, remember prim clothing? You had to spend hours adjusting each and every prim so it fit your shape. What a waste of time. Now i just buy a mesh outfit designed for my mesh body and BOOM, it fits. 

As to the decline of SL, if you look at the numbers Penny posted it looks like we are in a holding pattern. 

[greek Wingtips]

we slightly gone off the beaten track here, so let's get back to the crux of the article, we can argue till the cows come home about mesh, the underlining issue is what is going to happen to SL.

[Alwin Alcott]

14 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

 you only been in sl for 4 years,

huh?

last time i checked it was here a year before you jan 5th 2007.. and i don't get what age has to do with this, there are loads of people younger than you and me that know perfectly that its not true what you claimed.

(my oldest account is from 2005 ... so íf it's about age, think i have enough hours inworld to speak)

[Alwin Alcott]

22 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

the underlining issue is what is going to happen to SL.

no there is no issue... you want to make one .

[Drake1 Nightfire]

18 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

we slightly gone off the beaten track here, so let's get back to the crux of the article, we can argue till the cows come home about mesh, the underlining issue is what is going to happen to SL.

NOTHING!!! Not a damn thing will happen to SL. People like you have been screaming for a decade that "SL IS DYING!!!" "LL NEEDS TO FIX SL OR EVERYONE WILL LEAVE!!!" Good lord. Grow up and learn how things work. There is a decline since the huge influx of user when CSI did an episode about SL and even bought several sims. Big deal. still 40 to 50K a day online. which is more than twice what it was when i joined almost 11 years ago. Hell, a good Saturday night back then was 12K. It is currently 4 am in SLT and there are almost 30K online. 

Nice of you to dodge the replies to you about the mesh bodies though.. 

[Solar Legion]

27 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

we slightly gone off the beaten track here, so let's get back to the crux of the article, we can argue till the cows come home about mesh, the underlining issue is what is going to happen to SL.

Unless Linden Lab goes bankrupt. pulls the plug without announcement, gets into some serious legal trouble or any number of truly severe things that would cause more than just a simple exodus event .... Nothing is going to happen to SL.

Did you know there are still people who use services like America Online (AOL) and who play ancient MMOs like The Realm Online?

Both of those examples have changed hands at least once and their server systems are still up and running.

Now can you please stop, the sky is not falling.

[greek Wingtips]

48 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

NOTHING!!! Not a damn thing will happen to SL. People like you have been screaming for a decade that "SL IS DYING!!!" "LL NEEDS TO FIX SL OR EVERYONE WILL LEAVE!!!" Good lord. Grow up and learn how things work. There is a decline since the huge influx of user when CSI did an episode about SL and even bought several sims. Big deal. still 40 to 50K a day online. which is more than twice what it was when i joined almost 11 years ago. Hell, a good Saturday night back then was 12K. It is currently 4 am in SLT and there are almost 30K online. 

Nice of you to dodge the replies to you about the mesh bodies though.. 

I not dodging the mesh bodies because my article was not about that, I am happy to discuss with you mess that LLs caused allowing creators make the mesh bodies and causing all types of grief, I know mesh clothes creators that have to create loads of versions for all the mesh make bodies out there, no mean feat , The meshprojectbody I now been waiting for ages for them to give creators the platform to add tattoos to thier mesh bodies, they not even created the appliers yet . so there is an example.

[Phil Deakins]

1 minute ago, greek Wingtips said:

I am happy to discuss with you mess that LLs caused allowing creators make the mesh bodies and causing all types of grief

I don't think that LL even considered the possibility that people would create mesh bodies when they introduced mesh. I fancy that they only intended mesh for objects, the same as sculpties.

[Solar Legion]

7 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

I not dodging the mesh bodies because my article was not about that, I am happy to discuss with you mess that LLs caused allowing creators make the mesh bodies and causing all types of grief, I know mesh clothes creators that have to create loads of versions for all the mesh make bodies out there, no mean feat , The meshprojectbody I now been waiting for ages for them to give creators the platform to add tattoos to thier mesh bodies, they not even created the appliers yet . so there is an example.

Keep waiting and while you're waiting why not look up all the oh s lovely threads concerning TMP and the problems people have had with that particular body.

Going by the information available on the forum, TMP hasn't been updated in quite some time and it would appear that none are planned, let alone possible.

[greek Wingtips]

Personally, I have given up making tattoos for mesh the time and effort and what one gets for resale is not worth it, I now just make one-offs for personal customers.

[Alwin Alcott]

5 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

Personally, I have given up making tattoos for mesh the time and effort and what one gets for resale is not worth it, I now just make one-offs for personal customers.

oh yes... lets now start about tattoos.....

Edited November 20, 2017 by Alwin Alcott

[greek Wingtips]

its mesh mate, appliers same as clothes,  if you know nothing about creating then suggest you ask rather than be a smart A

[Alwin Alcott]

6 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

its mesh mate, appliers same as clothes,  if you know nothing about creating then suggest you ask rather than be a smart A

making tattoos for mesh is totally the same as for standard avies.

The only  additional skill you really need is being able to add a uuid or texture to a script/box

 

now this is your subject ...still see the relation?... you swarm from left to right and respond only on sidely related things, drifting away more and more, and still no single proof of your statements.

Quote

The persons that are the income to LL's need to be enticed to stay, the landowners to the creators,  am hearing members leaving or scaling down to save money,

I want to know what LL's is doing about this, Its like the overdue bill that one keeps ignoring, it will come to ahead when you have to confront it, but by that time it will be too late.

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Alwin Alcott

[Phil Deakins]

18 hours ago, greek Wingtips said:

The persons that are the income to LL's need to be enticed to stay, the landowners to the creators,  am hearing members leaving or scaling down to save money,

I want to know what LL's is doing about this, Its like the overdue bill that one keeps ignoring, it will come to ahead when you have to confront it, but by that time it will be too late.

LL scuppered a lot of land-ownership themselves when they decided to get in on the sales profits that users were making - the marketplace.

Leaving and scaling down to save money wouldn't be affected by anything that LL could do. If a person needs to save money, s/he needs to save money, and doubling the amount of tier for the same cost, for instance, wouldn't change that.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Qie Niangao]

18 minutes ago, greek Wingtips said:

Personally, I have given up making tattoos for mesh the time and effort and what one gets for resale is not worth it, I now just make one-offs for personal customers.

That's a dead-end market anyway (even though half the kiosks at shopping events are currently hipster tattoo parlors). If they ever make real progress on the Bakes On Mesh project, all existing tattoo and make-up products for mesh avatars will be obsolete. (Probably skins, too, and... really anything that is or could be "applied" as with the Omega system, at least as I understand it. The textures will still be useful, but anything available for purchase now will be throw-away.) This is actually very, very good to the extent it will simplify / unify the avatar customization process, which is now so fantastically Balkanized that it's impossible to explain to newbies. Little wonder that the SL population is gradually dying off: after accreting a decade of incompatible complexities, the avatar is such a kludgy contraption that learning to configure it is an exercise in digital archeology.

(Bakes On Mesh will also be important to overcome a technical limitation of blended alpha under the advanced lighting model, to which all mesh make-up and most mesh tattoos fall victim.)

17 hours ago, ChinRey said:

it seems several Lindens have returned to SL after working on Sansar.

That's the best news I've heard, and I'm sorry I didn't notice it before. It's the first sign that LL is prepared to cut its losses, or at least reduce the burn rate on a project with little prospect of profitability for many years. They've probably got enough done to be able to spin it off as an acquisition if somebody (Google? Google + HTC?) wants to pick up a snazzy VR rendering pipeline -- and not much else.

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

That's the best news I've heard, and I'm sorry I didn't notice it before.

Yes but I have to point out that I don't know if it's true, it's just what you'd normally expect. What is clear from recent official blog posts and also so obvious it goes without saying, is that now that Sansar is finally through its initial development stage, the upper management will have more time to spare focusing on SL.

In any case it's a two edged sword. Lindens returning to the SL department are likely to bring with them old habits and attitudes. The SL department has made some quantum leaps in their organization and methodology recently and the last thing we need is a return to the pre-2014 mess. Those two infamous "great news" blog posts are rather worrying. They're the kind of blunders you would expect from the old Linden Lab and they must have been written by somebody who didn't realize how much things have changed. It's no big deal if they turn out to be isolated incidents but if they are signs of things to come, SL may be heading for serious trouble.

Edited November 20, 2017 by ChinRey