Non-mesh vs mesh

[Chris Corvinus]

It is 2016 and SL is still loaded with a lot of terrible looking high prim non-mesh items, especially in its marketplace. Now I am a bit biased because I'm a hardcore mesh addict and I like to have my items, objects, clothes and myself look nice. But a lot of people it seems still prefer (and alot of designers continue to make) non-mesh stuff. Why? Mesh is more realistic, better looking, resizeable, and is much lower in prim/land cost. 

Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?

[Alwin Alcott]

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Chrismaky wrote:

(1)Mesh is more realistic,

(2)better looking,

(3)resizeable,

(4)and is much lower in prim/land cost. 

(5)Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?

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(1) can be more realistic, but is not always

(2) can be  better looking, but is not always 

(3) can be resizable, but is not always 

(4) can be lower in li , but is not always, in special in case of (3) it can go horiibly wrong in landimpact when resizing.

(5) NO

[Freya Mokusei]

Nope, but I'm not surprised a newcomer thinks the way you do.

I'm a scripter who modifies about 80-100% of the stuff that I buy, either to change the way it looks or the way it works. I never use anything 'off the shelf'. There used to be more folks like me, but I'd expect we're not so common now. It's a similar story to what others will tell you - creation is a common good in Second Life.

For scripting and modifying, prims are way more convenient since they're addressable and have full control via llSetLinkPrimitiveParams. Alpha layers on system clothes work far smoother than show/hide HUDs. You only need one copy of an attachment if it's made of prims/sculpts, but everything in mesh comes in at least five sizes is invariably all jumbled up and poorly named.

If a mesh item doesn't fit it ends up in the trash (there are some exceptions, but only a couple). If a sculpt/prim/system clothing item doesn't fit it can be hacked apart, remodelled, unlinked and relinked, colour-changed, all without needing support (or lag-inducing gimmicks) from the creator.

I use mesh for some items of clothing (usually lower half stuff), but that's about it. I recently got mesh hair, and it's okay -largely apathetic, but I acknowledge that it's the future. I modified it, of course - I found one that I could chop apart, recolour and reposition so that it would work with hats. The final view can be seen in my pic, here.

I don't use mesh in my building/construction except for limited use purpose-built stuff, and am not looking to use more of it. It's too slow to make it functional, compared alongside prims. Also requires significant work to remodel/reupload, just for a small change of heart.

All of the above is my personal opinion. YMMV.

 

[Phil Deakins]

I'll second Alwyn's reply and I'll add...

For SL, your idea is a nonsense simply because SL is an environment in which anyone can make stuff very easily. It could be said that that's the whole point of SL. Unfotunately, not everyone can make stuff in mesh very easily so, to push SL to a mesh-only environment would means abandoning what SL actually is, and that won't do at all.

 

 

[Prokofy Neva]

I'm an avid purchaser and admirer of mesh. But I also have many old prim "heirlooms" that are very beautiful and still compete with mesh. I also don't mind occasionally buying cheaper prim items for specific reasons, i.e. I often find that the most convincing specialized role-lay or "job" or "experience" type of object is prim, not mesh. Mesh makers often seem to go for appearance rather than functionality.

I'd totally oppose any move to impose "100% mesh" on SL because that would mean in this legacy SL that is SL 1.0 if you will (or 2.0 but not Project Sansar), we can't build things ourselves. And that would be awful if such creator-fascism was imposed on us, when there is no need for it. Mesh has to be made outside of the world by only skilled artists, but prim things can be made by anybody, including me, who flunked art class in high school, and I value that.

Mesh is not all that. For one, it is wildly different in quality. There is really crappy mesh just as there are prim things and really good mesh. I don't know the factors that go into this wide gulf in quality but THAT it exists is visible to the naked eye. Some people combine mesh and prim and/or sculpty and it usually looks worse. The dirty little secret of mesh more and more is that it is high-prim, i.e. actually high "land impact" which is the new measurement. It used to be that mesh was de facto considered very low impact, i.e. 1 or 2 or 4 for furniture. It's creeping up more and more to 10, 11, 18 and I don't know why but that's interesting and sometimes annoying because objects don't always advertise with their LI.

There are two major drawbacks to mesh:

1) it's impossible to place one mesh item on another. This is a HUGE HUGE annoyance because instead of just admitting that and announcing that, LL puts in their software a message that says "The owner of this land does not allow you" -- as if the issue was groups and membership and not something technical about mesh. Obviously I'm the owner of my own land, and my tenants are members of the land group, but we can't place mesh because mesh is a ****.

The only way to place most mesh items is to rez them out on a prim board, then cam in and winch them into place -- a time-consuming annoyance. It discourage decorators for sure, you have to be very determined.

2) If you expand mesh, it can suddenly wallop your land impact or "prims". Even a small amount. And if you combine mesh with some other thing, notably prims, especially twisted prims, you may blow all the prims off your sim by accident. Very vicious,with no warning. Some merchants do put warnings but it's never enough because there has never been an official company police statement about this.

I love discovering old prim "antiques" such as those the Moles make (their 99 prim picnic is a wonder!) or old pre-mesh craftsmen like Baron Grayson or Desmond Shang -- few recall that he was once a furniture maker before going into the community management business.

There's another problem with mesh and I'm not sure why it exists -- few mesh creators allow their objects to be "give all" or put dispensed objects in them (they often just don't put them on mod so you can't do it either). There's a drive to do more of the prop-hand placement through AvSitter, but there may be other technical issues, I don't know. That's why I still prefer the old-school creators like KitchenKorner or Kitty who have prims and sculpties made into realistic food that dispenses that you can hold in your hand and consume. But then, I am a Sim at heart, as in Sims Online.

 

 

[Alwin Alcott]

i'd like to add something very important:

 

Second Life is user created content, as soon you go to only mesh lot of people will not longer be able to create or build.

 

Don't get me wrong, i like mesh a lot, but also still love prims, and system clothes aren't obsolete yet too, it's not without reason lot of new mesh bodies use appliers = system clothes.

[Venus Petrov]

No.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Chrismaky wrote:

It is 2016 and SL is still loaded with a lot of terrible looking high prim non-mesh items, especially in its marketplace. Now I am a bit biased because I'm a hardcore mesh addict and I like to have my items, objects, clothes and myself look nice. But a lot of people it seems still prefer (and alot of designers continue to make) non-mesh stuff.

Why?

Mesh is more realistic, better looking, resizeable, and is much lower in prim/land cost. 

Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?

---

Everything in Second Life has some sort of major flaw or shortcoming, or else nobody would ever make anything new. It's human nature to overlook the flaws in things that you're used to and focus on flaws on things that are new to you. Also, things that are new often have bugs that need to be worked out, and people used to older things may reject those things because of those bugs and don't realize that some of those bugs will later be fixed or overcome with experience. For instance, Mr. Neva's statement that "you can't rezz one mesh object on top of another." It's perfectly possible - I just did it. However, when mesh houses first were introduced many builders built things in such a way that you couldn't, not knowing all of the idiosyncracies of the Second Life environment. Therefore, Mr. Neva assumes that it's impossible based on his prior experience.

As far as making SL "100% mesh", it already is and always has been, as it's made up of objects consisting of an array of points in space that form polygons. There have been at least three ways these objects have been formed - by manipulating 3D "primitives" directly, by using bitmaps to move vertexes on those objects ("sculpted prims"), or by uploading predetermined models from outside sources. All these ways have their own strengths and weaknesses.

[Conifer Dada]

Mesh is not necessarily more realistic when it comes to avatars.  

Mesh gave the opportunity for creators to make bodies with smoother joint articulation and with better detailing in areas where the 'system' avatar mesh was lacking.

But there are a lot of very oddly proportioned mesh bodies out there on the dancefloors of SL.  In particular I've seen a lot of female avs with huge bottoms combined with impossibly tiny waists.  I think from my observations that mesh has helped more with male avatars because the basic 'system' male av. was not as good as the female one.  

As a skinny female shape I'm quite happy with the system avatar, and I don't see the point in me going over to a mesh shape. I do have mesh clothes and hair, so I'm not a dinosaur!

[Talligurl]

I don't know everything to know about mesh vs. non-mesh, but I know i have a classic avatar and no one ever sais I was ugly. Mesh clothes are frankly a pain in the ass. I would hat eit if that was my only option.

 

[Chris Corvinus]

I totally understand that SL is a user generated content community. I get that. But a lot of you need to understand that creating mesh is FREE and easily learned. It's not a hard thing to grasp. I'm not saying to force mesh on everyone by replacing primmy stuff. What I am saying is more people should start downloading Blender and other free mesh creation tools, and LEARN. 

Clicking build and putting down a box is like for little kids when we had Blocks. Its too easy. Too simple. We need to keep expanding our minds and learning new things.

[BlueTrianon]

I really like everyone's arguments so far.  I'd also like to add a few reasons why an ardent fan of well-made mesh can appreciate inworld creation tools:

1.  Training.  Even if a new creator never intends to release a prim or prim-derived build, learning the basics of building with prims is a great way to get used to the idea of creating in 3D space.  They'll have a major hurdle accomplished before they ever open the modeling program of their choice.  Also, most inworld assets are created through a technique called box modeling.  That means that most  mesh created in modeling programs started life as, well, primitives generated by the modeling program.  May as well get used to these ideas in an environment where you can have lots of real-time feedback.

2.  Improved Workflow.  Game engines often include some equivalent of SL's prims even when there is no expectation that the user will include them in their final product.  Why?  It's a convenient way for the creator to "block out" their scenes.  For SL creators of larger items such as buildings, and even some smaller items, it's a quick way to test out the basics of their designs,  It also helps ensure proper scale and "feel" before settling down to model and texture offline.

[Rhonda Huntress]

Perhaps you will like the new product Linden Lab is currently working on developing.  It does not yet have a name but is believed to be focused in a 3D, non-prim direction.

While I do agree that mesh can look better than prims, until there is flexible mesh similar to flexi-prims there is no way to move past prims entirely.  Not that it would be a good idea to completely invalidate 12 years of content anyway but I do belive the asset database wouldbreath a hugh sigh of relief if they did. Let's face it, the best gowns are still appliers and prims.  They may have some mesh parts but the full mesk dresses do not move in a realistic fashion at all.

[Pamela Galli]

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Chrismaky wrote:

I totally understand that SL is a user generated content community. I get that. But a lot of you need to understand that creating mesh is FREE and easily learned. It's not a hard thing to grasp. I'm not saying to force mesh on everyone by replacing primmy stuff. What I am saying is more people should start downloading Blender and other free mesh creation tools, and LEARN. 

Clicking build and putting down a box is like for little kids when we had Blocks. Its too easy. Too simple. We need to keep expanding our minds and learning new things.

---

1. Mesh is most certainly NOT easily learned and it IS a very difficult thing to grasp -- except for those who only upload rather than make it.

2. Who is this "we" ? Expand your own mind and learn whatever you want but in SL people can do what they want, not what someone else says they "need" to do -- unless you are talking about something that breaks TOS or in some way prevents others from enjoying their SL.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Chrismaky wrote:

I totally understand that SL is a user generated content community. I get that. But a lot of you need to understand that creating mesh is FREE and easily learned. It's not a hard thing to grasp.

I'm not saying to force mesh on everyone by replacing primmy stuff.

What I am saying is more people should start downloading Blender and other free mesh creation tools, and LEARN. 

Clicking build and putting down a box is like for little kids when we had Blocks.

Its too easy. Too simple.

We need to keep expanding our minds and learning new things.

---

BLUE In your initial post you said, and I quote, "Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?"

RED There's no such thing as "too easy" and "too simple" if there's an easy, simple way of doing an action. Besides, personally I consider the SL build engine neither simple nor easy.

 

[Chris Corvinus]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

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Chrismaky wrote:

I totally understand that SL is a user generated content community. I get that. But a lot of you need to understand that creating mesh is FREE and easily learned. It's not a hard thing to grasp.

I'm not saying to force mesh on everyone by replacing primmy stuff.

What I am saying is more people should start downloading Blender and other free mesh creation tools, and LEARN. 

Clicking build and putting down a box is like for little kids when we had Blocks.

Its too easy. Too simple.

We need to keep expanding our minds and learning new things.

---

BLUE

In your initial post you said, and I quote, "Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?"

RED

There's no such thing as "too easy" and "too simple" if there's an easy, simple way of doing an action. Besides, personally I consider the SL build engine neither simple nor easy.

 

---

Thank you for visiting my sim. Too bad ya couldnt go a step further and actually engage in any form of conversation. And yeah, laying out a box (or a shape from the building tool for that matter) and is way too easy and simple. Same with stretching and such. The basic build engine is incredibly simplified.

[Griffin Ceawlin]



P.S. I've spent more than a few hours playing with Blender and don't find it easy AT ALL.

P.P.S. I note that YOUR Marketplace store is CHOCK FULL of THE most MARVELOUS mesh creations.

[Chris Corvinus]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Chrismaky wrote:

I totally understand that SL is a user generated content community. I get that. But a lot of you need to understand that creating mesh is FREE and easily learned. It's not a hard thing to grasp. I'm not saying to force mesh on everyone by replacing primmy stuff. What I am saying is more people should start downloading Blender and other free mesh creation tools, and LEARN. 

Clicking build and putting down a box is like for little kids when we had Blocks. Its too easy. Too simple. We need to keep expanding our minds and learning new things.

---

1. Mesh is most certainly NOT easily learned and it IS a very difficult thing to grasp -- except for those who only upload rather than make it.

2. Who is this "we" ? Expand your own mind and learn whatever you want but in SL people can do what they want, not what someone else says they "need" to do -- unless you are talking about something that breaks TOS or in some way prevents others from enjoying their SL.

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For some, not all. And "we" as in, ALL of us. Are you actually saying that its not a good thing to learn new things and expand your knowledge? Really!? Yeah, you can do almost whatever you want here in SL but that doesn't mean you have to settle for something that looks like it was made in prehistoric early 2000's. Like Day 1 SL. 

[Pamela Galli]

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Chrismaky wrote:

---

Pamela Galli wrote:

---

Chrismaky wrote:

I totally understand that SL is a user generated content community. I get that. But a lot of you need to understand that creating mesh is FREE and easily learned. It's not a hard thing to grasp. I'm not saying to force mesh on everyone by replacing primmy stuff. What I am saying is more people should start downloading Blender and other free mesh creation tools, and LEARN. 

Clicking build and putting down a box is like for little kids when we had Blocks. Its too easy. Too simple. We need to keep expanding our minds and learning new things.

---

1. Mesh is most certainly NOT easily learned and it IS a very difficult thing to grasp -- except for those who only upload rather than make it.

2. Who is this "we" ? Expand your own mind and learn whatever you want but in SL people can do what they want, not what someone else says they "need" to do -- unless you are talking about something that breaks TOS or in some way prevents others from enjoying their SL.

---

For some, not all. And "we" as in, ALL of us. Are you actually saying that its not a good thing to learn new things and expand your knowledge? Really!? Yeah, you can do almost whatever you want here in SL but that doesn't mean you have to settle for something that looks like it was made in prehistoric early 2000's. Like Day 1 SL. 

---

I am actually saying people should do what they want in SL, not what others think they "need to" do -- especially when the thing they "need to" do is learn Blender.

[Rhonda Huntress]

Actully what We need (after the weekend We had)  is a deep tissue massage and 30 minutes of silence in a dimly lit room.  After that We would like some cold fresh fruit, peeled and sliced, then fed to Us by Nathan Fillion

[Phil Deakins]

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Chrismaky wrote:

I totally understand that SL is a user generated content community. I get that. But a lot of you need to understand that creating mesh is FREE and easily learned. It's not a hard thing to grasp. I'm not saying to force mesh on everyone by replacing primmy stuff.

What I am saying is more people should start downloading Blender and other free mesh creation tools, and LEARN. 

Clicking build and putting down a box is like for little kids when we had Blocks. Its too easy. Too simple. We need to keep expanding our minds and learning new things.

---

That's not what you are saying at all. You are saying:-

"Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?" (See your opening post)

But it's good to see that you are now backtracking as a result of the replies to your post

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Chrismaky wrote:

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Thank you for visiting my sim. Too bad ya couldnt go a step further and actually engage in any form of conversation. And yeah, laying out a box (or a shape from the building tool for that matter) and is way too easy and simple. Same with stretching and such. The basic build engine is incredibly simplified.

---

You didn't seem to be in the mood to chat, as you kept asking how I found it when I was looking for the now-vanished club you were advertising the grand opening of two months ago.

Spawning shapes, clicking and stretching is actually a not-uncommon way to use professional 3D programs - it's how Vectorworks behaves, for instance. And, after I took a quick peek, Blender itself for that matter, right down to the tri-colored vector display. There are no style points for making something unnecessarily complicated.

The measure of a build is the build itself. Most tools can seem simple once you learn how to make them work, but are difficult until you do. It's the same with scripting a door, or running a club.

[Rhonda Huntress]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

It's the same with scripting a door, or running a club.

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 So ... what's the trick to getting a mesh door to work right?

[Christin73]

There are just some things that you just can't do with mesh. For instance, certain mesh can't be linked. and when it is linked it ups the prims considerably. Also one thing bout some mesh buildings is it won't let you rez inside the building. Some of the newer mesh buildings have gotten better about rezzing inside but still some out there that cant. I think a combonaiton of mesh and prims works out the best. Alot of my buildings are a combonaiton of the 2.

[Alwin Alcott]

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Chrismaky wrote:

 What I am saying is more people should start downloading Blender and other free mesh creation tools, and LEARN. 

. Its too easy. Too simple. We need to keep expanding our minds and learning new things.

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SL is the world where i don't need to do things... where i not should download stuff to learn... where i don't feel any need to expand...

it is to RELAX, have the life i don't have in real... hobby, meet, and for once can decide myself, without boss..kids, hubbie, wife, partner  or whatever is around you in rl.... where i can delete, create and dream my own dreams... i love to play with blocks, and everytime it's something nice i'm even more happy. When it;s crap... i delete and start over... childish? kids? perhaps yes.. but it's my time, my life and i love it.

 

if yours is expand and learn, do so... but stop that generalizing talk that WE should do what you think is right for others ...