Non-mesh vs mesh

[mikka Luik]

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Rhonda Huntress wrote:

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

It's the same with scripting a door, or running a club.

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 So ... what's the trick to getting a mesh door to work right?

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To paraphrase the OP a bit, you 'download some free tools and learn it' because  thats what they would do

 

 

[Rhonda Huntress]

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mikka Luik wrote:

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Rhonda Huntress wrote:

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

It's the same with scripting a door, or running a club.

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 So ... what's the trick to getting a mesh door to work right?

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To paraphrase the OP a bit, you 'download some free tools and learn it' because  thats what they would do

 

 

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Yeah, then build 16 doors and move the texture, not the object.

[Zion Ravenhurst]

Mesh will always be superior in my opinion.

I might be a little biased myself, because I'm in the same boat as you regarding my opinions about mesh and non-mesh, but the latter typically looks god-awful to me.

[Perrie Juran]

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Chrismaky wrote:

It is 2016 and SL is still loaded with a lot of terrible looking high prim non-mesh items, especially in its marketplace. Now I am a bit biased because I'm a hardcore mesh addict and I like to have my items, objects, clothes and myself look nice. But a lot of people it seems still prefer (and alot of designers continue to make) non-mesh stuff.

Why?

Mesh is more realistic, better looking, resizeable, and is much lower in prim/land cost. 

Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?

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So many assumptions and part truths here.

You sound like a graduate from the school of "If It's Mesh Its Got To Be Good."

For every crappy prim you can find I can find you a piece of crappy mesh.

Maybe you just haven't seen a lot of what a truely talented Prim Artist can do.  Sadly there seem to be fewer and fewer in SL.  How much I wish the Nemo or Alpha & Omega Sims were still here.  Thye were technically marvelous works of art.

And while granted you may be able to do more for lower Land Impact with Mesh, Land Impact is a server side measure.  It does not tell us what really should be our bigger concerns, Avatar Rendering Complexity and Mesh Rendering Weight.  That's what's happening Client side and where people really have the problems they encounter.

Oh, I could go on and on here.  In fact I could postulate that Mesh has done more to hurt SL than it has helped and make a pretty good case for it.  In fact in some if not many cases Mesh has degraded and not enhanced peoples Imagination.

 

eta:Shpelling

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Chrismaky wrote:

It is 2016 and SL is still loaded with a lot of terrible looking high prim non-mesh items, especially in its marketplace. Now I am a bit biased because I'm a hardcore mesh addict and I like to have my items, objects, clothes and myself look nice. But a lot of people it seems still prefer (and alot of designers continue to make) non-mesh stuff.

Why?

Mesh is more realistic, better looking, resizeable, and is much lower in prim/land cost. 

Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?

---

So many assumptions and part truths here.

You sound like a graduate from the school of "If It's Mesh Its Got To Be Good."

For every crappy prim you can find I can find you a piece of crappy mesh.

Maybe you just haven't seen a lot of what a truely talented Prim Artist can do.  Sadly there seem to be fewer and fewer in SL.  How much I wish the Nemo or Alpha & Omega Sims were still here.  Thye were technically marvelous works of art.

And while granted you may be able to do more for lower Land Impact with Mesh, Land Impact is a server side measure.  It does not tell us what really should be our bigger concerns,

Avatar Rendering Complexity

and

Mesh Rendering Weight.

  That's what's happening Client side and where people really have the problems they encounter.

Oh, I could go on and on here.  In fact I could postulate that Mesh has done more to hurt SL than it has helped and make a pretty good case for it.  In fact in some if not many cases Mesh has degraded and not enhanced peoples Imagination.

 

eta:Shpelling

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The truly talented Prim Artists are probably now truly talented Mesh Artists, because as Artists they are going to be drawn to the most versatile tool that will help them produce their Art.

I've already argued that if mesh items are what's driving inflated rendering weights I don't see it by looking at actual attachments. I have fully-mesh outfits that have lower rendering weight then one sculpted sneaker (not even taking into account the bonus features that sneaker might have had, such as a multi-hundred-kilobyte resize script and an invisiprim scripted to change textures every ten seconds.)

[Perrie Juran]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Chrismaky wrote:

It is 2016 and SL is still loaded with a lot of terrible looking high prim non-mesh items, especially in its marketplace. Now I am a bit biased because I'm a hardcore mesh addict and I like to have my items, objects, clothes and myself look nice. But a lot of people it seems still prefer (and alot of designers continue to make) non-mesh stuff.

Why?

Mesh is more realistic, better looking, resizeable, and is much lower in prim/land cost. 

Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?

---

So many assumptions and part truths here.

You sound like a graduate from the school of "If It's Mesh Its Got To Be Good."

For every crappy prim you can find I can find you a piece of crappy mesh.

Maybe you just haven't seen a lot of what a truely talented Prim Artist can do.  Sadly there seem to be fewer and fewer in SL.  How much I wish the Nemo or Alpha & Omega Sims were still here.  Thye were technically marvelous works of art.

And while granted you may be able to do more for lower Land Impact with Mesh, Land Impact is a server side measure.  It does not tell us what really should be our bigger concerns,

Avatar Rendering Complexity

and

Mesh Rendering Weight.

  That's what's happening Client side and where people really have the problems they encounter.

Oh, I could go on and on here.  In fact I could postulate that Mesh has done more to hurt SL than it has helped and make a pretty good case for it.  In fact in some if not many cases Mesh has degraded and not enhanced peoples Imagination.

 

eta:Shpelling

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The truly talented Prim Artists are probably now truly talented Mesh Artists, because as Artists they are going to be drawn to the most versatile tool that will help them produce their Art.

I've already argued that if mesh items are what's driving inflated rendering weights I don't see it by looking at actual attachments. I have fully-mesh outfits that have lower rendering weight then one sculpted sneaker (not even taking into account the bonus features that sneaker might have had, such as a multi-hundred-kilobyte resize script and an invisiprim scripted to change textures every ten seconds.)

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I think it's a mixed bag all around actually.

Most of the best Prim Artists I knew personally have left SL.  I know there are some prim artists who have moved on to Mesh.

And on wearables I have seen numbers all over the place.  (I kind of left sculpties out of this because they have thier own problems).

I'm really not for or against either.  But one thing we need to remember is that the original platform was not designed to support Mesh.  It took a lot of kludging to get it to do so.  And so you are going to run into kludges. 

[BobbyGeorge]

I don't dislike mesh. I just DON'T get it on any level. Like, literally can't understand the appeal of it at all.

I don't think mesh avatars look particularly better than some of the 2010-era skins and shapes - plus there's the colossal drawback of inability to customise/individualise them. Mesh hair kind of looks plastic and static too.

As for all the talk about reduced impact, I've found SL lags worse (not unbearably, but it's notable) than it did before mesh became popular. I also find it totally disrupts the 'immersionism' when you TP into a place with a load of floating heads and dismembered arms and legs. What's the point of a more realistic looking leather jacket when it takes so long to show up?

Its popularity baffles me.

 

 

[Deltango Vale]

I much prefer layer and prim clothing because it actually fits me. Mesh is like armor; it rarely fits properly. Also, I don't want my legs amputated every time I wear a skirt. Mesh furniture is good, though it usually takes time to rez and often wobbles when zooming in and out. Honestly, things were better back in 2006.

[Deltango Vale]

Haha. Sure, mesh is easy to learn if you have an undergraduate degree in computer science from MIT and a Master's in object design modelling from Stanford. No problem. It also helps if you are independently wealthy to afford the leisure time to spend 20 million hours learning Blender. As for the rest of us normal proles, not a chance.

[Pamela Galli]

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Deltango Vale wrote:

Haha. Sure, mesh is easy to learn if you have an undergraduate degree in computer science from MIT and a Master's in object design modelling from Stanford. No problem. It also helps if you are independently wealthy to afford the leisure time to spend 20 million hours learning Blender. As for the rest of us normal proles, not a chance.

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I have spent about 20 million hours learning Blender. It was brutal. I am not in any way a technical person. I would not have done it if my business had not depended on it. It has taken me five years to replace 90% of my pre-mesh content with mesh. I would never have done it "just for fun", and I would never suggest everyone learn it so we could get rid of all non mesh content.

[Deltango Vale]

I cringe at the thought of creators like yourself grinding your fingers in the Blender. The sad part is that I'd be far more interested in buying from the 90% you've discontinued than the mesh stuff you've slaved so hard to produce.

ETA: I've actually stopped buying clothes because of mesh. I have my wardrobe from before and I'm happy with it.

[Rya Nitely]

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Chrismaky wrote:

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Thank you for visiting my sim. Too bad ya couldnt go a step further and actually engage in any form of conversation. And yeah, laying out a box (or a shape from the building tool for that matter) and is way too easy and simple. Same with stretching and such. The basic build engine is incredibly simplified.

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Yeah, I don't think I'd like to come in here and post a load of rubbish, and then have someone find me inworld either. Sort of takes the fun out of it a bit.

But seriously, have you ever tried building with prims? It isn't just stretching. You need to put in values (twist, taper, top shear etc) to get just the right shape, and for flexi (something you can't get with mesh) you need to play around with gravity, softness, wind etc). It takes learning and practice.

All my old prim items still sell very well, and whenever I think of converting them to mesh I decide no. My boats can be seen from a far distance, and they have that solidness about them. I also have many offsim structures made with prims (and sculpties). The point of offsims is that you want to see it at a distance. It has to be big, like an island, mountain, shipwreck or a lighthouse. It's not easy to get this effect with mesh because big mesh equals high LI, and if it isn't high LI then it will vanish too quickly.

People are still buying old prim and sculptie items, and they are happy with it, so this speaks for itself. 

[Prokofy Neva]

No, you're simply not telling the truth about this at all.

I decorate dozens of units constantly and put down mesh constantly, hundreds of pieces day in and day out. The overwhelming majority of cases BOUNCE and give you the error and disappear into a kind of "lost and found" UNLESS you rez them on a prim.

Everyone knows this and your pretense that it isn't true just boggles the mind.

If occasionally some items don't do that, great, but that can also be due to the fact that some house makers now put prims under their floors to deal with exactly this issue.

It's not "prior experience". It's ongoing, daily, constant experience with the very newest and best mesh creations from the latest events of even this week.

There's no need to be contrarian for contrariness' sake. We all know the reality of the mesh placement problem. 

[Pamela Galli]

I still have my non mesh stuff on the Marketplace, and a little bit inworld, and it sells well. It is about half the price of mesh, since it has highter LI.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Prokofy Neva wrote:

No, you're simply not telling the truth about this at all.

I decorate dozens of units constantly and put down mesh constantly, hundreds of pieces day in and day out. The overwhelming majority of cases BOUNCE and give you the error and disappear into a kind of "lost and found" UNLESS you rez them on a prim.

Everyone knows this and your pretense that it isn't true just boggles the mind.

If occasionally some items don't do that, great, but that can also be due to the fact that some house makers now put prims under their floors to deal with exactly this issue.

It's not "prior experience". It's ongoing, daily, constant experience with the very newest and best mesh creations from the latest events of even this week.

There's no need to be contrarian for contrariness' sake. We all know the reality of the mesh placement problem. 

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1.) You said it was "impossible" to rezz mesh on mesh.

2.) It isn't.

Yes, there are occasions that what you describe will happen. It may even be a majority of times. But it's not every time, and it's not impossible.

[Prokofy Neva]

No, Theresa, you are *still* not telling the truth about this obvious phenomenon that everyone knows about.

Do you log into Second Life much?

It is indeed IMPOSSIBLE to put mesh on mesh NEARLY ALL THE TIME.

It's not a rare occasion or a small percentage of time.

It's the main default with few exceptions.

You admit that it's the majority of times. That indeed means it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Your nit-picking and thinking there is some need for you to "intervene" here and "set me straight" about those *edge cases* where mesh does place is a typical forums caper but that doesn't validate it any more.

Only applying binary yes/no code conceptions to the phenomena of real life could you come up with a statement like this.

Real life -- the real experience within SL -- is that nearly always, mesh bounces.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

You have way over simplified mesh vs. prim.  It is NOT easy building realistic and efficient items in prims or mesh.  If it was there would be no need for content creators since everyone would be making their own stuff and saving tons of money since SL started. 

In answer to your question though, I vote with a big NO!  There are too many people in SL that enjoy creating things using regular prims just for their own personal enjoyment and as a creative outlet.  They have neither the time, talent, money (for uploads) or the incentive to learn how to create mesh.  Mesh has to be created outside SL and that is a big drawback for a lot of people.  If they were going to spend a lot of time outside of SL doing that, for a lot of people who just come here to create what is the point of being in SL then?

[wherorangi]

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Chrismaky wrote:

Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?

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No. Mesh is cool for sure, and so are prims for those of us who still like to build inworld

am pretty sure tho you are going to love Sansar when it opens it gates wider at the end of this year about. Project Sansar, the new total mesh thingy that LL are building for people such as yourself

[Chris Corvinus]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Chrismaky wrote:

I totally understand that SL is a user generated content community. I get that. But a lot of you need to understand that creating mesh is FREE and easily learned. It's not a hard thing to grasp. I'm not saying to force mesh on everyone by replacing primmy stuff.

What I am saying is more people should start downloading Blender and other free mesh creation tools, and LEARN. 

Clicking build and putting down a box is like for little kids when we had Blocks. Its too easy. Too simple. We need to keep expanding our minds and learning new things.

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That's not what you are saying at all. You are saying:-

"

Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?

" (See your opening post)

But it's good to see that you are now backtracking as a result of the replies to your post

 

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Um no? I'm not backtracking at all. I fully stand behind everything ive said. When I asked that question, I was not meaning LL. I was reffering to the community. Because, you know, SL is a user generated content community so it would make sense to push mesh WITHIN the community itself.

[Chris Corvinus]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

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Chrismaky wrote:

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Thank you for visiting my sim. Too bad ya couldnt go a step further and actually engage in any form of conversation. And yeah, laying out a box (or a shape from the building tool for that matter) and is way too easy and simple. Same with stretching and such. The basic build engine is incredibly simplified.

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You didn't seem to be in the mood to chat, as you kept asking how I found it when I was looking for the now-vanished club you were advertising the grand opening of two months ago.

Spawning shapes, clicking and stretching is actually a not-uncommon way to use professional 3D programs - it's how Vectorworks behaves, for instance. And, after I took a quick peek, Blender itself for that matter, right down to the tri-colored vector display. There are no style points for making something unnecessarily complicated.

The measure of a build is the build itself. Most tools can seem simple once you learn how to make them work, but are difficult until you do. It's the same with scripting a door, or running a club.

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You cannot be serious. If someone is talking to you in IM, that generally means they are, in fact, in the mood to chat. And I have had a lot of visitors so was curious. I see now harm in that. I wasn't being rude or anything, simply inquiring. You just completely ignored me which is rather rude.

[Chris Corvinus]

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Christin73 wrote:

There are just some things that you just can't do with mesh. For instance, certain mesh can't be linked. and when it is linked it ups the prims considerably. Also one thing bout some mesh buildings is it won't let you rez inside the building. Some of the newer mesh buildings have gotten better about rezzing inside but still some out there that cant. I think a combonaiton of mesh and prims works out the best. Alot of my buildings are a combonaiton of the 2.

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Mesh is still relatively new and yeah, there are a few annoying kinks. I'm not particularly fond of partial mesh but I have bought a few things when all other options were prim which is really unnacceptable to me. To me, most prim stuff looks way too old school. I mostly go by looks and prim count. And mesh wins both by far.

As for the linking, I have found that prim cost varies. Sometimes it takes a lot of prim and sometimes it doesn't. Like fences and walls. I also know that some 100% mesh looks way better than others. Those are the ones I typically buy and iv'e never had a problem with high prim when linking. Also sometimes, with fences and walls for example, its better to use individuel parts than linking them all to keep prim count down but overall, still cheaper in prim cost than using prim stuff mostly.

[Chris Corvinus]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Chrismaky wrote:

It is 2016 and SL is still loaded with a lot of terrible looking high prim non-mesh items, especially in its marketplace. Now I am a bit biased because I'm a hardcore mesh addict and I like to have my items, objects, clothes and myself look nice. But a lot of people it seems still prefer (and alot of designers continue to make) non-mesh stuff.

Why?

Mesh is more realistic, better looking, resizeable, and is much lower in prim/land cost. 

Do you think there should be a push to make SL 100% mesh?

---

So many assumptions and part truths here.

You sound like a graduate from the school of "If It's Mesh Its Got To Be Good."

For every crappy prim you can find I can find you a piece of crappy mesh.

Maybe you just haven't seen a lot of what a truely talented Prim Artist can do.  Sadly there seem to be fewer and fewer in SL.  How much I wish the Nemo or Alpha & Omega Sims were still here.  Thye were technically marvelous works of art.

And while granted you may be able to do more for lower Land Impact with Mesh, Land Impact is a server side measure.  It does not tell us what really should be our bigger concerns,

Avatar Rendering Complexity

and

Mesh Rendering Weight.

  That's what's happening Client side and where people really have the problems they encounter.

Oh, I could go on and on here.  In fact I could postulate that Mesh has done more to hurt SL than it has helped and make a pretty good case for it.  In fact in some if not many cases Mesh has degraded and not enhanced peoples Imagination.

 

eta:Shpelling

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Honestly, I have NEVER seen a piece of "crappy" mesh. Compared to prim-made objects? ANY mesh made thing would look 10x better. Now, thats not to say ALL Prim Artists are terrible. I'm still a fan of AXL Pro. The guy has skills in home building and I own A LOT of his homes. 

BUT...

Compared to Maven Homes? Yeah, no. I switched to Maven because the houses cost less in prim and looked a bazillion times better. Sorry im not sorry. I still buy AXL's cars though...which are 100% mesh, lol.

I'm not saying mesh is perfect but c'mon...You seriously cannot stay in 2007 forever. Mesh is a very much needed graphic upgrade.

[Chris Corvinus]

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Deltango Vale wrote:

Haha. Sure, mesh is easy to learn if you have an undergraduate degree in computer science from MIT and a Master's in object design modelling from Stanford. No problem. It also helps if you are independently wealthy to afford the leisure time to spend 20 million hours learning Blender. As for the rest of us normal proles, not a chance.

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Or you could, ya know, watch some tutorials on youtube and even google some more. Here, I'll help get ya started

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=blender+tutorial

https://www.google.com/#q=blender+tutorials

I would do at least 1 tutorial a day.

[Chris Corvinus]

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Rya Nitely wrote:

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Chrismaky wrote:

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Thank you for visiting my sim. Too bad ya couldnt go a step further and actually engage in any form of conversation. And yeah, laying out a box (or a shape from the building tool for that matter) and is way too easy and simple. Same with stretching and such. The basic build engine is incredibly simplified.

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Yeah, I don't think I'd like to come in here and post a load of rubbish, and then have someone find me inworld either. Sort of takes the fun out of it a bit.

But seriously, have you ever tried building with prims? It isn't just stretching. You need to put in values (twist, taper, top shear etc) to get just the right shape, and for flexi (something you can't get with mesh) you need to play around with gravity, softness, wind etc).

It takes learning and practice.

All my old prim items still sell very well, and whenever I think of converting them to mesh I decide no. My boats can be seen from a far distance, and they have that solidness about them. I also have many offsim structures made with prims (and sculpties). The point of offsims is that you want to see it at a distance. It has to be big, like an island, mountain, shipwreck or a lighthouse. It's not easy to get this effect with mesh because big mesh equals high LI, and if it isn't high LI then it will vanish too quickly.

People are still buying old prim and sculptie items, and they are happy with it, so this speaks for itself. 

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Oh. It takes learning and practice. Like Blender?

Seriously, I'm not against people buying the old stuff still. I simply think mesh should be the way to go.

[Syo Emerald]

I like mesh and I wouldn't want to miss it. But to each their own and forcing people out of using prims is unnecessary.