Thoughts on "Want Lower Tier? Now You Can Get Grandfathe​red Land Rates!"

[Cain Maven]

I mulled this over for 24 hours, and I've decided to bite. Here's why:

(By way of background: I make houses, and I only have two regions -- so I realize that my logic may not apply to other people.)

Short term: I hand over my $ 1200, and in 6 months I will break even. Barring a catastrophic event during those months, I will be exactly where I am now. The only downside is that I've tied up some capital for half a year, which I can live with.

After that, there are basically three possible scenerios:

1. SL continues pretty much as it is today. If that happens, my net will increase by $ 200 / mo. Not a huge deal, but a good thing.

2. SL declines - perhaps because Sansar is the coolest thing ever, the RL economy tanks, or Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump get married. In this scenario, I have an additional cushion of $ 200 to help me weather the storm. It's obviously not a good development, but I'll still be better off than I would be with the current tier.

3. The SL economy grows -- maybe because more people now are willing to spend on land. If that happens, the multiplier effect will cause a boost in the arm for related industries, such as houses, furniture, etc. That would leave me with lower fixed costs and higher volume, i.e. an ideal outcome.

Which is more likely? I have no idea, and it doesn't really factor into the decision. As far as I can tell, I'll be better off regardless of which scenario plays out.

All of this of course hinges on the assumption that the universe doesn't come unglued in the next 183 days or so. But that's a risk I'm willing to take.

Again, I do understand that my thinking won't make sense to everyone else. But for those in roughly the same boat as myself, I think this is a good deal. Reasonable people may disagree

[Deltango Vale]

"Oh! But he was a tight-fisted hand at the grindstone, Scrooge! a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous, old sinner!"

LL, quit f*****g around. Just lower the bloody tier to US$195.

[Deltango Vale]

Yup, in November 2006, LL passed the million-resident mark. Mainland was scarce and LL figured it could milk the estate sims. For that reason, I never purchased an estate, sticking solely to mainland.

In September 2006, initial setup fee for an Estate sim (also called a Full Region or Island sim, 15000 prims) was US$1250; monthly tier fee was US$195. Initial setup fee for a pack of four Openspace sims (1875 prims each) was US$1250; monthly tier fee was US$195. Openspace sims could only be purchased by the owner of an Estate sim.

In November 2006, initial setup fee for an Estate rose from US$1250 to US$1675; monthly tier fee rose from US$195 to US$295. The same price increase applied to a pack of four Openspace sims

A bar chart of estate ownership through time can be found here.

A full history of private island pricing can be found here.

[DejaHo]

---

Deltango Vale wrote:

 

LL, quit f*****g around. Just lower the bloody tier to US$195

.

---

OR ELSE!

[Medhue Simoni]

Why aren't we mainlanders getting a similar deal? Why leave us out?

[Deltango Vale]

Hehe. Or else LL will enhance its reputation as a stingy, miserly, petty, myopic, third-rate company with a lousy marketing department.

[Medhue Simoni]

Well, at this point, I think keeping my land is more about having my own space to create on. Yes, Bento has pulled me back into SL, but last year I made 4 products for SL, and that says alot about what I'm working on, cause I'm always making something, if not working on many things. Even a $50 cut on my mainland sim would have been a nice cut that softens the blow of paying $195/month for virtual land. Plus, there are tons of abandon mainland sim. LL should be lowering the mainland tier, not as a promo or grandfathering, but just economically being smart and trying to get people using the land again. Seriously LL, get someone who understands basic econ.

 

My girlfriend thinks I'm crazy for paying that much for virtual land, and it's hard to argue against that very basic logic.

[Pussycat Catnap]

A tier reduction would not help mainland.

A lack of good zoning policies and the lack of a need is what hurts mainland.

 

If you explore mainland you will see that the good land is selling for prices now that are not that different from many years ago. But the land in between is getting dumped.

Marketplace and the abundance of private estates means people no longer need to to put up with having land in the middle of a sim next to blightly builds. So they don't.

 

River, ocean, water, and some roadside land goes very high.

Double prim land goes high, and is heavily filled.

- plots in these categories that get abandoned when people leave get put back into auction and sell high.

Adult land remains very high. G land tanks in price. M land wavers heavily depending on how easily one can avoid blight or G-land neighbors or other similar issues.

There is some very well built and maintained G-land - parts of Bay City... but note how much of that area is up for sale. The number of people who want it is too small, and they have more or less all already bought into Bay City...

- M side of Bay City has much lower vacancy.

Linden Homes are heavily occupied - but not heavily used. People who just want a spot to park an avatar use this.

 

You could lower tier to a third of its current rate and I don't think you'd see much mainland change. It is filled about naturally for the demand right now. Unless they shut off marketplace and close the linden homes - that wont' change.

- And the Marketplace and Linden Homes are major economic drivers for SL, so that won't happen.

 

I do fear it will leave them with a misguided impression that a mainland concept is not desired for a future VR. I think the proper takeaway should be that a well managed mainland IS desired - thus why some estates in SL are considering expanding, and why Bay City remains vibrant.

- You need a well thought out set of zoning rules to prevent blight. And you need active community managers to keep up social networks.

 

The issues with SL mainland have little to do with tier by comparrison to other factors.

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I agree with you Pussycat.  I've never been interested in owning mainland because of the lack of zoning there.  I do rent land on the Blake Sea, but I can leave it at no loss anytime and the fact that it is on the Blake sea keeps parcels near me residential.

For most of mainland no matter how pretty a mainland parcel is, there is no guarantee something ugly and inappropriate won't be built next to your land in the future.  Even if you own a full sim, the one next door may be or become unsightly to you.

If someone wants a full sim now, this new policy may induce many that would buy a mainland sim to buy a private estate sim instead.  Not only would they not have to deal with the lack of zoning on mainland, they have full estate rights, which mainland doesn't have.  It's just a matter of if they have the $600.  If they buy on the secondary market it may even be cheaper than a mainland sim in some cases even with having to pay the $600 since many full mainland sims go for a lot of money.

[mikka Luik]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

A tier reduction would not help mainland.

A lack of good zoning policies ...

.......

 

I do fear it will leave them with a misguided impression that a mainland concept is not desired for a future VR

 

---

Well thats one reason I like the mainland (the chaotic bits fascinate me) and also why themed clusters exist.

As for the impression - what little info exists on the  new LL project and practical examples of the grids that are out there point to the sad conclusion that particular ship sailed long ago.

 

[Medhue Simoni]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

A tier reduction would not help mainland.

A lack of good zoning policies and the lack of a need is what hurts mainland.

 

If you explore mainland you will see that the good land is selling for prices now that are not that different from many years ago. But the land in between is getting dumped.

 

---

Hence why I said LL should hire an ecnomics guy. The premium Mainland regions should stay at the $195 price, and the rest of the regions should be priced according to the market, not some set price. LL still has costs to maintain those regions, and they might as well take something over nothing at all. The mainland being priced in this way would bring back those people who can't afford to own their own sim. It would especially be good for merchants who would want their own sim to create on. It would also make mainland more appealing as more and more of the spaces get filled, driving up the value again. Like I said tho, with the mainland regions adopting a market based model, there will always be cheap land for new start ups to buy. Even residential landbarons would jump back into the Mainland market.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

---

KarenMichelle Lane wrote:

Have a read....

https://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Want-Lower-Tier-Now-You-Can-Get-Grandfathered-Land-Rates/ba-p/3019148

 

---

Hmm, I may do this.  Over a 6 months period, I'd recoup my buy-down investment. This makes financial sense. 

 

I don't think SL will suddenly disappear, or that the new LL venture will suck out all the people.   :smileyhappy:

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

Why aren't we mainlanders getting a similar deal? Why leave us out?

---

I'm sure LL will be happy to let you have a Mainland region for $195 a month even if you don't pay them a $600 buy-down fee.

[Perrie Juran]

(Tagging you out of convenience)

I keep hearing people dissing Mainland living.

I lived on Mainland most of my Second Life and personally never really had any trouble.

I rented for several years from someone who owned three Sims and maintained them as residential.  After Linden Homes killed the Mainland rental market he did sell his Sims and I bought my own plot.  And except for a brief period when I had a new neighbor we had trouble getting to restrict rez rights (twice griefers took advantage of this) the Sim always stayed pleasant and I had very good neighbors.

I do understand that back when I started there was more of a wild west anything goes attitude on Mainland.  But the past couple of years as I've continued to visit and explore Mainland I almost never see any problems.  I'm not saying that they don't happen but I feel like they have become the rare exception and not the rule.

I will grant this one thing, there is a lot of trash in the skies.

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

A tier reduction would not help mainland.

A lack of good zoning policies and the lack of a need is what hurts mainland.

 

If you explore mainland you will see that the good land is selling for prices now that are not that different from many years ago. But the land in between is getting dumped.

 

---

Hence why I said LL should hire an ecnomics guy. The premium Mainland regions should stay at the $195 price, and the rest of the regions should be priced according to the market, not some set price.

---

Yeah. Agreed. Econ person, but also some social media experts. And I don't mean the kind that most tech firms hire - who just manage your 'like clicks' on Facebook...

They need some community managers that do things like "Blue Linden" did "back in the day" or that "Blondin Linden" attempted to do with Zindra (albeit not as successfully as Blue had been with the blogging). Plus more.

LLs: like it or not your "thingy" is a social platform, a huge 'thing' of many different communities. Its not a sandbox, and its not a platform, and its not an MMO - it could have been any of those, but that didn't happen.

Its a series of communities. Some connected, some not.

They do appear to have some people who are working it as if it was about community, but I'm not sure those people have the prominence they should have.

Go look at some MMOs and you have user bases that are so used to speaking to one or two of the "community support managers" that they start believing the "game" is that individual's thing. Look into "World of Warcraft" and its former community leader "ghostcrawler" for example.

- That's an example of being able to handle a community of people that ran up to about 12 million active users, and give them all a sense that they mattered and 'had a guy on the line' they could talk to, who 'got stuff done' and shaped the thing a certain way... Regardless of what power he actually had - he "knew how to work a room".

 

As for the econ person, I also agree - but they need this, in my opinion, in order to have someone who actively shapes things like how search should work in marketplace, advices on land priorities, and so on.

- as in, I think Marketplace should get active tuning based on relevance that takes into account sales history and sales trends for different periods of time and such. Active analytics.

With land, a combo team of a social manager and an econ expert could work together to make decisions about zoning, re-zoning, what to do about unsold land, fairness of blight policies, and so on.

I get that this was once a free-for-all platform where anybody could rez anything... but its now an aging stable "thingy" and I think it should be "on the table" to force some builds down or elsewhere, encourage some others, and maybe even the idea of changing maturity ratings on some land - IF and ONLY IF both the econ and social person had data from the analytics to prove that a given change might boost retention.

- and even if they chose NOT to make a change, that also should be a decision based on research into the data rather than 'traditions of not breaking stuff'.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

They need some community managers that do things like "Blue Linden" did "back in the day" or that "Blondin Linden" attempted to do with Zindra (albeit not as successfully as Blue had been with the blogging). Plus more.

 

---

On a personal level, I quite liked Blondin.

However, having sat through countless of Blondin's weekly meetings for Zindra residents and business owners,  I can honestly say that most of the time I had no idea what Blondin though he was trying to do, other than repeat stuff his boss had told him to say and to keep his temper with a couple of the more poisonous self-appointed "community leaders", and I doubt he did either.

 One of the best decisions LL made about Zindra, as far as I was concerned, was to put Viale in charge.    He promptly solved most of the outstanding issues that had utterly perplexed Blondin for the previous few years, and then put the Adult Content Group (as it had by then become) out of its misery.

 

 

[Prokofy Neva]

My real-life name isn't Karen.

And you know, using people's real-life names on the forums is not allowed.

Furthermore, there's nothing "crazy" about reporting the truth of the past here. You're just an incurable fanboy.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

I guess you're not very good at math. You might want to get more familiar with the harsh reality of rentals math before buying sims.

If someone just bought 6 sims at the going rate and going tier, and gets this announcement, it's really nasty because they then can't earn back what they sunk into the sims to cover the purchase cost in a market suddenly bottoming out because others are going to get grandfathered sim. Perhaps by spending ANOTHER $600 they might then "compete" but it's Lucy moving the football. You don't get that because it apparently never applies to you.

The original poster was right to complain.

And Medhue is right that the Lindens should do something to incentivize the mainland. They never do. 10% tier bonus is hardly an incentive when you are forced to constantly 'buy the view'. A tiny thing they could do is just clear abandoned land completely every time it is abandoned and stop leaving the builds of their little friends there until they come back 3 months later when they feel like paying tier.

[BarcodeBrian]

---

Prokofy Neva wrote:

My real-life name isn't Karen.

And you know, using people's real-life names on the forums is not allowed.

Furthermore, there's nothing "crazy" about reporting the truth of the past here.

 

---

Pardon my wrongly hitting one of the reply buttons when it did not apply. It doesn't take more than an elementary grade education to see for whom the writing was addressed.

Would you be surprised if I said that Brian is my real life name? Reach as far as you like, you haven't found a violation here nor in that post. Not even if your real life first name WERE Karen.

Neither referencing, linking to, nor posting on the internet the psychotic rants of voices inside the head of stark raving lunatics have any relationship to reporting truths of the past. I'm sure I'm not the only one noting a term such as factual data was not used. Please understand that I do have a weakness of shouting and pointing to help others not step in nasty things.

 ___________________________________________________________________________________________

                                                         You're just an incurable fanboy.

 ___________________________________________________________________________________________

Wrong again. There is a cure!

[BarcodeBrian]

---

Prokofy Neva wrote:

If someone just bought 6 sims at the going rate and going tier, and gets this announcement, it's really nasty because they then can't earn back what they sunk into the sims to cover the purchase cost in a market suddenly bottoming out because others are going to get grandfathered sim. Perhaps by spending ANOTHER $600 they might then "compete" but it's Lucy moving the football. You don't get that because it apparently never applies to you.

The original poster was right to complain.

And Medhue is right that the Lindens should do something to incentivize the mainland.

---

I both agree and disagree here.

Likely everyone will not be able to take advantage of this offer and no matter how many do, the market will only bottom out for those choosing to operate at the bottom. Try to offer something more than just being a middleman looking to skim from that which can be obtained without you. Some estate owners don't see it as something they can pass on to their renters as a financial savings; rather, it is more a security of viability and longevity. Many of them provide service and community beyond basic virtual land.

Private islands are still the bread and butter product for Linden Lab. Land prices have been high and there is nothing wrong with them starting there to make some kind of change. You can still have more land alone for the same money on Mainland.

I agree that a change to make things a little easier for tier paying Mainland property owners would also be wonderful. I have no idea if anything will happen later on for that, but who knows if it might be a future possibility? You might even be able to slide into a better position yourself. There really isn't any way to know for sure at this stage.

[Qie Niangao]

---

BarcodeBrian wrote: You can still have more land alone for the same money on Mainland.

---

How? Do you mean the measly 10% group bonus and the paltry "bonus" 512 that comes with Premium? Because that's nothing like the 33% tier discount Mainland used to get compared to the $295/mo (non-grandfathered) full-sim Estate fee.

And even with that discount, Mainland was hard to justify because, let's face it, 33% is scant compensation for the limitations and aggravations of Mainland ownership. Some of us loved Mainland, but even some who have stuck with Mainland through years of Linden neglect are now looking seriously at the prospect of shedding all the annoyance and getting land we can actually control -- for the same price per month (modulo the above-mentioned rounding errors).

If even I am considering dumping all my Mainland, the place is in trouble, and LL better devise another discount to make the place somewhat competitive again.

[Phil Deakins]

Like you, I've been on mainland for the whole of the 9+ years that I've been in SL and, also like you, the idea of moving off it has crossed my mind in the last few days. Especially since I'm down to a corner 4k and the new owner in the adjacent sim has just put a huge, flat, side of a box (building) right next to me, which casts shadow over the whole of my plot. The store is still intentionally fading and it's not far off being ready to close, so it wouldn't be a big upheaval for me. I'm giving the idea of moving off mainland some consideration.

[Aethelwine]

The 40 avatar limit and lack of Control to do things like restarts makes mainland a bad option now. If it wasn't for the transport routes and ability to explore sim to SIM there would be nothing going for mainland. They should think about pricing and do more rezoning. There are at least as many redundant water Sims where no one can get without living on the adjacent SIM as there are blocked or effectively blocked routes that could be fixed by moving Sims around. You can get around three quarters of the Atoll before you meet an impassable corner. It would be easy to move a few Sims so you can get around Nautilus or the continent to its south.

[Deltango Vale]

Having owned mainland for nearly 10 years, let me provide a little history.

In November 2006, SL passed the million-resident mark. As people flooded into SL, the demand for mainland greatly outstripped supply. At the same time, LL raised the monthly cost of Estates from US$195 to US$295. By January 2007, mainland prices had increased by a factor of 10 (year-on-year). When LL began adding mainland sims, they sold for up to US$5,000 at auction. A 4/4 'green' waterfront sim would retail for L$1,000,000.

LL had no strategy or management program in place regarding the expansion of the mainland. Over the next few years, LL simply dumped HUGE quantities of mainland onto the market. The results were catastrophic. Those first million residents and the next - vital to the reputation of SL during its dramatic growth phase - were crucified by the collapse in mainland prices brought about by oversupply. At the same time, LL failed to formulate a strategy to upgrade the technical infrastructure of Second Life. While it may have been amusing for early adopters to lose their jewelry during teleports - or have their hair reattached to their butts - the wave of new residents were unimpressed. Who can forget the dreaded 'Upgrade' Wednesdays when all hell would break loose on the grid?

Then LL dropped account verification, opening the doors to kids and griefers, who swarmed in via free, ANONYMOUS accounts. Needless to say, the mainland suffered badly from this triple blow. Then came the fourth blow in the form of LL's disastrous 'Adult' policy. Long-established mainland landowners were forced to relocate to Zindra. Many left SL. Zindra became a junk pile.

What was the alternative? In 2006, there were only two continents. The zoning of these continents was a hodgepodge of Mature and PG sims. The first step would have been to convert them all to Mature. The second step would have been to design kernel continents which were either Mature or PG (one or the other) then build them up based on the demand for each type. As is known now (and was pretty obvious at the time), demand was much higher for Mature sims. Still, a PG continent would have evolved naturally, preventing the entire Zindra fiasco.

More pernicious yet has been LL's inability to understand basic economics. Of utmost importance (Econ 101, day one, lecture one), is the concept of 'relative prices'. The price of an apple is not given by God, nor is the price of an orange. Prices are determined in a market by the aggregate demand for apples relative to oranges. Those of you with a background in economics will instantly understand that the relative price of tier has increased by a factor of 4 compared to a basket of RL 'infotainment' goods and services between 2006 and 2016. In short, the relative price of tier is 4x higher than it was in 2006. For non-economists, this may seem confusing, but this post would be much longer if I have to go through the entire process of explaining it.

The standard reply is that the grid can't handle the potential demand that good policies would generate, but the grid is shrinking and has been for years. Reducing the relative price of tier would OFFSET this shrinkage, providing GREATER revenue to Linden Lab.

All of this to say that the mainland could have been far more habitable had LL managed SL properly from the beginning. We inherit today a legacy of failure and mismanagement, which LL is either unable or unwilling to address. Perhaps the company sees Sansar as its salvation, but honestly, who can have faith in such a project considering the mess LL made of SL?

[Pamela Galli]

---

Aethelwine wrote:

The 40 avatar limit and lack of Control to do things like restarts makes mainland a bad option now. If it wasn't for the transport routes and ability to explore sim to SIM there would be nothing going for mainland. They should think about pricing and do more rezoning. There are at least as many redundant water Sims where no one can get without living on the adjacent SIM as there are blocked or effectively blocked routes that could be fixed by moving Sims around. You can get around three quarters of the Atoll before you meet an impassable corner. It would be easy to move a few Sims so you can get around Nautilus or the continent to its south.

---

Good ideas -- they should leverage the advantages mainland has going for it -- or could have. Otherwise they can probably expect a mass exodus.