Kenbro Utu Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 SosiaalinenKokeilu wrote: So, does this mean you have to apply for these licenses too Linden Lab? I mean you run Linden Realms. A game in which you need a certain amount of skill, in order to get a cash payout? Linden Realms requires no payment of Lindens to participate in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExoticBanker Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 a few questions I can not find in the FAQ anywhere 1. it says a operator can not spend L$ other than to pay for the winnings recieve L from any where other than the person paying to play the game How is the operator suppose to use the money earned to pay for overhead to run the sim ( ex. tier, landscaping, staff , etc) ok so maybe they can send money to one of their 6 alias attached to their operator avy.. that covers the above issues but it does not solve ths one .. how is a operator suppose to buy games from game creators.. another avy cant buy most games and transfer them to the operator .. and the games have to be in the operators name in order for the money to come to and from them during game play. 2. you have a list of states that cant come on a gaming region.. I have checked all of those states online gaming laws and they all allow gaming but with a higher age Residents of the following states and countries may not participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life: Arizona Arkansas Delaware Florida Kentucky Louisiana Maryland South Carolina South Dakota TennesseeArizona age 21 Arkansas age 21 Delaware age 21 Florida age 21 Kentucky age 21 Louisiana age 21 Maryland age 21 South Carolina age 21 South Dakota age 21 Tennessee age 21 why not allow those over that age to access the gaming region or better yet.. raise your required age up from 19 to 21 to cover all the states? Doesnt that make sense? 3. it is my understanding that as long as you have your application in by Aug 1st 2014 .. you can continue running your gaming site and business until your application is approved or if not approved at that time you must stop operations.. is this correct? if so .. does thatt mean we can continue to run the same games we have been running as long as those games have not be disapproved? and do we have to be on a gaming region by aug 1st 2014 even if we are waiting on approval ? these questions really need to be answered for any of us to more forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amanda Carousel Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Hi, I am not the creator of the games I have on my sim, I rent a sim that has these games on them, I am not sure if that makes me the operator sorry am a little confused on this stuff. Do need to fill out an application just because I have the games on my sim? Also am hearing a lot of rumors such as child avis are not going to be allowed on these sims? Is this true or not. Thank you Totally confused lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoovious Aloix Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I'm 98% certain, that child avis won't be barred from gaming sims... would be next to impossible to prevent anywways... what they are concerned with is the RL age of the person behind the avatar, not the visible age of the avatar itself. -- Smoov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Since most child avatars claim they are enacting their lost childhood or the worry free feeling of being a child, I take it that participating in gambling is not part of such an experience (a RL child would normally not have entry to venues of such activity) Therefore I don't see child avatars not having access should be any problem. If they want to participate the can "grow up" quickly via My Outfits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybloomer Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 amanda Carousel wrote: Hi, I am not the creator of the games I have on my sim, I rent a sim that has these games on them, I am not sure if that makes me the operator sorry am a little confused on this stuff. Do need to fill out an application just because I have the games on my sim? Also am hearing a lot of rumors such as child avis are not going to be allowed on these sims? Is this true or not. Thank you Totally confused lol amanda, I am going to try and break my response into two parts for the two different questions you have. I am going based on what is stated in the policy, faq and wiki Linden has issued so far. Your sim with games - If you did not rez these games there and they are pay-to-play (pay L in and it pays L out) and someone else did, then that other person needs to apply for an operator's license and either the games have to be moved to a Gaming Region or the current sim it is on converted to a Gaming Region. If you did rez them in addition to being the renter of the sim, then you need to apply for an operator's license and also subjected to the Gaming Region conversion or would have to move them off to one that is. This is also assuming that the games that are rezzed there have been approved by Linden and the creator also has been approved for a creator's license. The child avatars - If they don't meet the Gaming Residents requirements as stated in the policy they won't be allowed into any Gaming Region. In general, it doesn't matter if they are Santa Claus or a goat avatar if they don't pass the requirements Linden has set then they won't be allowed in. Here's the definition of Gaming Resident as posted in their policy: "Gaming Residents Should you wish to participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life, you represent and agree that you: (i) are at least nineteen (19) years of age; (ii) have the legal authority to agree to this Skill Gaming Policy; (iii) reside in, and are accessing a Skill Gaming Region from, a jurisdiction in which participation in Skill Gaming is legally authorized; and (iv) are of legal age to participate in Skill Gaming in your jurisdiction. In order to enter a Skill Gaming Region, you must establish and maintain a Second Life account with accurate, current and complete information about yourself, including a valid payment method. Any Skill Gaming conducted in a Second Life region that has not been recognized as a Skill Gaming Region is not permitted. If you fail to satisfy any of these requirements, you are not permitted to enter any Skill Gaming Regions." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonBaller Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I am an owner of a full region and I'm looking to list it as skill gaming - I need a few clarifications please When would the fee get applied - on the Sim tier due date or immediately? I think Support can also answer that but a public posting would help all those region owners. Some profit share operators are saying they will offer that arrangement after August 1st - Does it mean you need to apply as an operator to host such machines? to "continue to operate your skill games until your application fee is rejected or approved" means what exactly ? business as usual until you hear from LL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybloomer Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 JasonBaller wrote: I am an owner of a full region and I'm looking to list it as skill gaming - I need a few clarifications please When would the fee get applied - on the Sim tier due date or immediately? I think Support can also answer that but a public posting would help all those region owners. Some profit share operators are saying they will offer that arrangement after August 1st - Does it mean you need to apply as an operator to host such machines? to "continue to operate your skill games until your application fee is rejected or approved" means what exactly ? business as usual until you hear from LL? The section of the FAQ you quoted, here's what I understand it means: If the operators of the machines apply and submit their application and the additional required materials before August 1st and they don't hear back from Linden with a decision until after that date, they can continue to run business as usual from August 1st till the date they receive a decision from Linden. If the operators of the machines apply and submit their application and the additional required materials after August 1st, then they have to cease business starting August 1st until they receive a decision from Linden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushant Diesel Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 1) LL is banning the games in 10 states..so if i am a tourist, traveling to usa..and i pass via these states for a limited period of time will i be discontinued from my work? i won't be able to access the gaming lands when i am in these lands? 2) Sometimes employees who are critical and knows A to Z of the gaming work, can be one of these banned states..can they continue work with games? They wudnt be a game operator nor a game creator..but a Manager who will need to promote the games and interact with the clients..for this they will need to have access to the gaming regions. 3) Section 4 (e) Skill Game Ownership is not clear at all..i don't understand what they are trying to say..il need light on that Thanks, Sushant Diesel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoovious Aloix Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I did plenty of gambling as a child... but the reason they want to play SL as a child, isn't any business of ours... as long as they are of qualified age RL, what do I care? -- Smoov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier10 Albert Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I is part of U.E the fact that the designer must provide legal proof with a lawyer to say that it is legal games are ok places I do not understand how the lawyer will say that it is games are legal you must know the language LSL 1 and understand how the 2 games by cons if he accepts ok after beings must be approved by you ok So why ask the operator also has the same proof that the creator so that the already approved by counsel and LL should not hide the face this is all about money and you want a share of the cake legal advice everyone to protect you Increased area of 345 dollars and 100 dollars every 3 months a total of U.S. $ 378 is going to take a small margin in passing all this is done to prohibit the pure and simple games and leave only the biggest survive and better monitored and you do not even imagine the number of parcel and full sim that will be returned by all the resident makes good on the second attent life 2 BE is why all the changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Most people I have spoken with on the subject of child avatars (and I spoken with a LOT) find them creepy pushing their agenda and roleplay in ways people are very uncomfortable with. I hope they get banned from these sims (and from the rest of SL for that sake.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormie Windlow Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 As Im not a creator nor an operator, I feel most of the changes will have little or no effect on me and as has been mentioned previously, it does appear that non US based potential applicants for both are being frozen out, I see this as mostly affecting US citizens. Once the new gaming regions are set up I should in theory have no problem playing the machines as Im over 21 in real life and live in the UK. However, that's the theory, reality maybe different. I think its a case of wait and see. My question is before I even set foot on the gaming region, with these tighter controls, will you be sending everyone's details to their relevant tax authorities (IRS, Inland Revenue). If so, what information will you be sending exactly? Obviously, as a creator or operator, with only one account responsible for income and expenditure, it will be easy to monitor and control but how will you be treating the punter in all this? In the past I've played some, lost more, won some but just treated it as a fun thing; now it feels way more serious hence my question about tax implications etc. I really do apologise if this question has been asked and answered previously but I've read the thread and couldn't see this covered and I really would like clarification as to how I'm going to get treated once (or if) I play on the gaming region. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 daisybloomer wrote: amanda Carousel wrote: Hi, I am not the creator of the games I have on my sim, I rent a sim that has these games on them, I am not sure if that makes me the operator sorry am a little confused on this stuff. Do need to fill out an application just because I have the games on my sim? Also am hearing a lot of rumors such as child avis are not going to be allowed on these sims? Is this true or not. Thank you Totally confused lol amanda, I am going to try and break my response into two parts for the two different questions you have. I am going based on what is stated in the policy, faq and wiki Linden has issued so far. Your sim with games - If you did not rez these games there and they are pay-to-play and someone else did, then that other person needs to apply for an operator's license and either the games have to be moved to a Gaming Region or the current sim it is on converted to a Gaming Region. If you did rez them in addition to being the renter of the sim, then you need to apply for an operator's license and also subjected to the Gaming Region conversion or would have to move them off to one that is. This is also assuming that the games that are rezzed there have been approved by Linden and the creator also has been approved for a creator's license. The child avatars - If they don't meet the Gaming Residents requirements as stated in the policy they won't be allowed into any Gaming Region. In general, it doesn't matter if they are Santa Claus or a goat avatar if they don't pass the requirements Linden has set then they won't be allowed in. Here's the definition of Gaming Resident as posted in their policy: "Gaming Residents Should you wish to participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life, you represent and agree that you: (i) are at least nineteen (19) years of age; (ii) have the legal authority to agree to this Skill Gaming Policy; (iii) reside in, and are accessing a Skill Gaming Region from, a jurisdiction in which participation in Skill Gaming is legally authorized; and (iv) are of legal age to participate in Skill Gaming in your jurisdiction. In order to enter a Skill Gaming Region, you must establish and maintain a Second Life account with accurate, current and complete information about yourself, including a valid payment method. Any Skill Gaming conducted in a Second Life region that has not been recognized as a Skill Gaming Region is not permitted. If you fail to satisfy any of these requirements, you are not permitted to enter any Skill Gaming Regions." You are mistaken. Pay-to-play games are nothing to do with it. They are only something to do with it if they also pay out to the players. Paying to play is not gambling. Receiving winnings is not gambling. Paying to play AND receiving winnings is gambling. Gambling is only allowed if it's a game of skill. Those are the games that the new setup is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Gavin Hird wrote: Most people I have spoken with on the subject of child avatars (and I spoken with a LOT) find them creepy pushing their agenda and roleplay in ways people are very uncomfortable with. I hope they get banned from these sims (and from the rest of SL for that sake.) That post doesn't belong in this thread. You need to start a new thread if you want to discuss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin Hird Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: Gavin Hird wrote: Most people I have spoken with on the subject of child avatars (and I spoken with a LOT) find them creepy pushing their agenda and roleplay in ways people are very uncomfortable with. I hope they get banned from these sims (and from the rest of SL for that sake.) That post doesn't belong in this thread. You need to start a new thread if you want to discuss it. Agreed, and i don't want to discuss it here. It was simply a statement to what should be allowed in these sims or not. My position on child avatars are well known and has been the same since we discovered the creepyness of what went on in the Bay City infohubs. Say no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romina Heron Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I dont got an answer of my simple question......what does LL will do with all the gambling casinos. and please dont say LL doesnt know about it.....there is gambling....and all this games aren't skill games. and who is liable? the player...the owner or the creater? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybloomer Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: daisybloomer wrote: amanda Carousel wrote: Hi, I am not the creator of the games I have on my sim, I rent a sim that has these games on them, I am not sure if that makes me the operator sorry am a little confused on this stuff. Do need to fill out an application just because I have the games on my sim? Also am hearing a lot of rumors such as child avis are not going to be allowed on these sims? Is this true or not. Thank you Totally confused lol amanda, I am going to try and break my response into two parts for the two different questions you have. I am going based on what is stated in the policy, faq and wiki Linden has issued so far. Your sim with games - If you did not rez these games there and they are pay-to-play and someone else did, then that other person needs to apply for an operator's license and either the games have to be moved to a Gaming Region or the current sim it is on converted to a Gaming Region. If you did rez them in addition to being the renter of the sim, then you need to apply for an operator's license and also subjected to the Gaming Region conversion or would have to move them off to one that is. This is also assuming that the games that are rezzed there have been approved by Linden and the creator also has been approved for a creator's license. The child avatars - If they don't meet the Gaming Residents requirements as stated in the policy they won't be allowed into any Gaming Region. In general, it doesn't matter if they are Santa Claus or a goat avatar if they don't pass the requirements Linden has set then they won't be allowed in. Here's the definition of Gaming Resident as posted in their policy: "Gaming Residents Should you wish to participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life, you represent and agree that you: (i) are at least nineteen (19) years of age; (ii) have the legal authority to agree to this Skill Gaming Policy; (iii) reside in, and are accessing a Skill Gaming Region from, a jurisdiction in which participation in Skill Gaming is legally authorized; and (iv) are of legal age to participate in Skill Gaming in your jurisdiction. In order to enter a Skill Gaming Region, you must establish and maintain a Second Life account with accurate, current and complete information about yourself, including a valid payment method. Any Skill Gaming conducted in a Second Life region that has not been recognized as a Skill Gaming Region is not permitted. If you fail to satisfy any of these requirements, you are not permitted to enter any Skill Gaming Regions." You are mistaken. Pay-to-play games are nothing to do with it. They are only something to do with it if they also pay out to the players. Paying to play is not gambling. Receiving winnings is not gambling. Paying to play AND receiving winnings is gambling. Gambling is only allowed if it's a game of skill. Those are the games that the new setup is about. "“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law." Based on the definition of a skill game in the Skill Gaming Policy, very high likelihood pay-to-play games are skill games. If not then they either are a freeplay game (no money needed to play) or a chance game (prohibited by TOS). There is no gray area about this. And if it's a one way pay into the machine and no money comes out, then only thing I can think of would either be a vendor, rental box, gacha machine or tipjar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killashandra Littlething Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Phil Deakins wrote: Gavin Hird wrote: Most people I have spoken with on the subject of child avatars (and I spoken with a LOT) find them creepy pushing their agenda and roleplay in ways people are very uncomfortable with. I hope they get banned from these sims (and from the rest of SL for that sake.) That post doesn't belong in this thread. You need to start a new thread if you want to discuss it. Who died and made you lord and master of the forums? Notify a mod and be done with it. Didn't you start a thread a while ago about "Why people feel the need to comment onSurvey threads?" If you don't like a post just ignore it.. Hey pot, this is kettle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I wonder.. Is a gatcha machine technically a game of chance? Its like those claw games at the mall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybloomer Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Drake1 Nightfire wrote: I wonder.. Is a gatcha machine technically a game of chance? Its like those claw games at the mall. It's a good question, though I think the distinction is in where the element of chance is. In a skill game, you put money in and you can end up with nothing coming out. In RL, those claw machines you are talking about, you put money in and you can end up grabbing nothing and end up with nothing coming out. Gacha machine, you put money in but you do get sometihng out every time. The difference is the first two is chance "of winning something" versus the last is chance "of what you win." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemonika Nightfire Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 hi, i have a question about Sploders. When a sploder are against the Wagering policy, why did Linden Lab ignore it since more than 10 years? I know a sploder is more like a lotterie, but the most clubs in sl have already rezzed one and the most people use it for party-fun and not for profit. Currently i dont know any club without a sploder. sincerely yours Dae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 daisybloomer wrote: Phil Deakins wrote: daisybloomer wrote: amanda Carousel wrote: Hi, I am not the creator of the games I have on my sim, I rent a sim that has these games on them, I am not sure if that makes me the operator sorry am a little confused on this stuff. Do need to fill out an application just because I have the games on my sim? Also am hearing a lot of rumors such as child avis are not going to be allowed on these sims? Is this true or not. Thank you Totally confused lol amanda, I am going to try and break my response into two parts for the two different questions you have. I am going based on what is stated in the policy, faq and wiki Linden has issued so far. Your sim with games - If you did not rez these games there and they are pay-to-play and someone else did, then that other person needs to apply for an operator's license and either the games have to be moved to a Gaming Region or the current sim it is on converted to a Gaming Region. If you did rez them in addition to being the renter of the sim, then you need to apply for an operator's license and also subjected to the Gaming Region conversion or would have to move them off to one that is. This is also assuming that the games that are rezzed there have been approved by Linden and the creator also has been approved for a creator's license. The child avatars - If they don't meet the Gaming Residents requirements as stated in the policy they won't be allowed into any Gaming Region. In general, it doesn't matter if they are Santa Claus or a goat avatar if they don't pass the requirements Linden has set then they won't be allowed in. Here's the definition of Gaming Resident as posted in their policy: "Gaming Residents Should you wish to participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life, you represent and agree that you: (i) are at least nineteen (19) years of age; (ii) have the legal authority to agree to this Skill Gaming Policy; (iii) reside in, and are accessing a Skill Gaming Region from, a jurisdiction in which participation in Skill Gaming is legally authorized; and (iv) are of legal age to participate in Skill Gaming in your jurisdiction. In order to enter a Skill Gaming Region, you must establish and maintain a Second Life account with accurate, current and complete information about yourself, including a valid payment method. Any Skill Gaming conducted in a Second Life region that has not been recognized as a Skill Gaming Region is not permitted. If you fail to satisfy any of these requirements, you are not permitted to enter any Skill Gaming Regions." You are mistaken. Pay-to-play games are nothing to do with it. They are only something to do with it if they also pay out to the players. Paying to play is not gambling. Receiving winnings is not gambling. Paying to play AND receiving winnings is gambling. Gambling is only allowed if it's a game of skill. Those are the games that the new setup is about. "“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law." Based on the definition of a skill game in the Skill Gaming Policy, very high likelihood pay-to-play games are skill games. If not then they either are a freeplay game (no money needed to play) or a chance game (prohibited by TOS). There is no gray area about this. And if it's a one way pay into the machine and no money comes out, then only thing I can think of would either be a vendor, rental box, gacha machine or tipjar. There may be a very high likelihood, but that's not the point. What you wrote was wrong, so your advice to the person you were advising was wrong - as #3 in the part you quoted clearly shows. If it doesn't pay out as well as pay in, then it's not gambling and doesn't come under this new stuff. If anyone took what you wrote as being right, then they might easily remove perfectly legitimate games from their land. Someone suggested that you leave LL to answer the questions. It's not a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Don't be so silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 daisybloomer wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: I wonder.. Is a gatcha machine technically a game of chance? Its like those claw games at the mall. It's a good question, though I think the distinction is in where the element of chance is. In a skill game, you put money in and you can end up with nothing coming out. In RL, those claw machines you are talking about, you put money in and you can end up grabbing nothing and end up with nothing coming out. Gacha machine, you put money in but you do get sometihng out every time. The difference is the first two is chance "of winning something" versus the last is chance "of what you win." You may not want to go down this rabbit-hole. I tried to explore it over in the corresponding SLU thread, and got very hostile reactions from folks rabidly defensive of their gacha addictions. In practice, though, there's no question that LL has already defined their way out of it by stipulating that the payoff must be in L$s, not gacha "merchandise." (Yeah, I know there's a loophole there big enough to drive a truck through, but see that SLU thread for how folks react to it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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