Skill Gaming Policy Thread

[Madman Magnifico]

As my previous post seems to have gone completely ignored, I shall ask the most important of the questions once again...

Question 1:

Under section 4 © of the application, it is stated that

"the transactions of an Operator Account shall be limited to transactions with Second Life residents through the approved Skill Games..."

And then, below that is an exception (i) which states

"Under limited circumstances, the Operator Account will be allowed to make Linden Dollar payments to Second Life residents who provide services to an Operator..."

 

Could you, Linden Lab, please explain what the limits and circumstances are in this instance?  It is absolutely vital to know this, in particular, for many of the people involved in all of this...

 

Question 2:

Could you, Linden Lab, please provide us with technical details as to how it can be determined whether or not (a sim is classified as gaming, an operator is authorized to purchase/operate games)?

Specifically, will there be additions to LSL to provide for this, will we need to download and parse wiki pages (if so, how frequently will they be updated?), or will there be some other API for us to use?

 

[Innula Zenovka]

---

daisybloomer wrote:

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

---

Linden Lab wrote:

Hi Drake,

Games of chance are and have been prohibited by the 

Wagering Policy

. If you encounter what you believe are such objects, you can file an abuse report if it's an inworld object or flag an item on the Marketplace via the exisiting flagging system there.

Thank you,

 

---

Thank you for that clarification.   Which of the categories in the existing Marketplace flagging system (shown in the picture below) should we use to flag games of chance?  

At first glance, none of them seem particularly appropriate.

---

I'd say the first one on the list "Item Not As Advertised."

---

I'm really not so sure.  I mean,  the item is, presumably, as advertised -- it does what it says.   The only problem is that it's not compliant with ToS.   

It's a long-standing issue with the Marketplace -- how do you flag items that are apparently in breach of ToS?

The best advice I've had (from a Linden) is to go to the Inworld shop and AR the items from there, but that's not a lot of use if there's no Inworld shop.   

[Darkness Anubis]

I'd probably go with Spam or not allowed listing practices

Certainly an item that violates the TOS is not allowed to be listed

[Linden Lab]

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

Please answer my question regarding costs.  I've found the operator, creator one... $100 per application but what about the quarterly fee and why does an approved game that LL has accepted into the list then ALSO need the operator to go through the same lawyer legal process when the operator has no sight of the code and thus can't assert that the game really does what it says? 

Why does LL want fees from TWO entities for what is essentially the same thing?

---

Hi Sassy,

We have updated or FAQ based on may of the questions that we've seen here and appreciate your patience as we did so. Information about this can be found here in the new updated FAQs which we will continue to update with any new information.

kind regards,

 

 

 

[Linden Lab]

---

WDL Bayn wrote:

I'm wondering about the part of obligation from the operators to provide a "reasonable legal oppinion that describe each skill game including detailed operational description".  We will only be allowed to operate approved games.

This double checking nonsense. Why is necesarry for an operator to present the legal oppinion for a game that is already approved and certified by LL that complies with the new ToS ?

What will happend when we want to use a new game ? We have to apply again ?

What if we want to become operators but have no idea what games will pass the approval process? What if no games pass the approval process? Then what do we operate?

Thanks,

WDL Bayn.

---

Hi Sassy,

We have updated or FAQ based on may of the questions that we've seen here and appreciate your patience as we did so. Information about this can be found here in the new updated FAQs which we will continue to update with any new information.

thank you,

 

[Linden Lab]

---

WDL Bayn wrote:

I'm wondering about the part of obligation from the operators to provide a "reasonable legal oppinion that describe each skill game including detailed operational description".  We will only be allowed to operate approved games.

This double checking nonsense. Why is necesarry for an operator to present the legal oppinion for a game that is already approved and certified by LL that complies with the new ToS ?

What will happend when we want to use a new game ? We have to apply again ?

What if we want to become operators but have no idea what games will pass the approval process? What if no games pass the approval process? Then what do we operate?

Thanks,

WDL Bayn.

---

Hi WDL,

We have updated or FAQ based on may of the questions that we've seen here and appreciate your patience as we did so. Information about this can be found here in the new updated FAQs which we will continue to update with any new information.

thank you,

 

[Sassy Romano]

Thanks there are answers to some of the questions that have come up but again:-

"What if the creator is also the operator" what applications have to be made, double fees?  and how many affidavit's will be needed (same one or a different one per application)?

 

[Linden Lab]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

I have a question about the requirement that both the Creator and the Operator of a game submit legal opinions about it.

Does the Operator have to obtain an opinion from her own legal advisor or may she ask the Creator for a copy of the opinion he obtained when first obtaining approval to sell the game, and rely on that?    

 

---

Hi Innula,

We have updated or FAQ based on may of the questions that we've seen here. THe new updated FAQ and Information about this can be found here. We will continue to update with any new information.

Thank you,

 

 

[Linden Lab]

---

Ayesha Lytton wrote:

Hi, I need some clarification. 

I have no problem complying with this, EXCEPT it appears that the "operator account" can't give or receive L$ from anywhere else. I own almost all of my machines with this same account that I use for my land business. I get tier payments, shop, go to live music and tip, etc. What is the point of taking in L$ if I can't spend it on things in SL? Please tell me I'm reading this wrong.

---

The information about this covered in section 4 of the applicaion.

Thank you,

 

[daisybloomer]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

---

daisybloomer wrote:

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

---

Linden Lab wrote:

Hi Drake,

Games of chance are and have been prohibited by the 

Wagering Policy

. If you encounter what you believe are such objects, you can file an abuse report if it's an inworld object or flag an item on the Marketplace via the exisiting flagging system there.

Thank you,

 

---

Thank you for that clarification.   Which of the categories in the existing Marketplace flagging system (shown in the picture below) should we use to flag games of chance?  

At first glance, none of them seem particularly appropriate.

---

I'd say the first one on the list "Item Not As Advertised."

---

I'm really not so sure.  I mean,  the item is, presumably, as advertised -- it does what it says.   The only problem is that it's not compliant with ToS.   

It's a long-standing issue with the Marketplace -- how do you flag items that are apparently in breach of ToS?

The best advice I've had (from a Linden) is to go to the Inworld shop and AR the items from there, but that's not a lot of use if there's no Inworld shop.   

---

Well I thought the option of "Item Not As Advertised" worked the best as I assumed it did not say in the listing it was TOS compliant, hence not advertised correctly.

[daisybloomer]

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

Thanks there are answers to some of the questions that have come up but again:-

 

"What if the creator is also the operator" what applications have to be made, double fees?  and how many affidavit's will be needed (same one or a different one per application)?

 

---

Linden would still need to answer this officially, but from seeing the application form given you can select either a creator license or operator license or both on the same form, if you wanted to get both you could apply using just one form which would mean one fee and one set of supporting documents to go with the application.

[Romina Heron]

ty for answer. but who make themselves liable to prosecution? the casinoowner....the gamecreator....the gameowner or the gamer?

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Linden Lab wrote:

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

Please answer my question regarding costs.  I've found the operator, creator one... $100 per application but what about the quarterly fee and why does an approved game that LL has accepted into the list then ALSO need the operator to go through the same lawyer legal process when the operator has no sight of the code and thus can't assert that the game really does what it says? 

Why does LL want fees from TWO entities for what is essentially the same thing?

---

Hi Sassy,

We have updated or FAQ based on may of the questions that we've seen here and appreciate your patience as we did so. Information about this can be found

here

in the new updated FAQs which we will continue to update with any new information.

kind regards,

 

---

Eeep!    The new FAQ ,to which that link points,  currently reads:

---

As creators and operators of skill games are differently situated, unique reasoned legal opinions will be required for each creator and operator application. Each reasoned legal opinion should describe the skill game(s) submitted to Linden Lab for approval and provide a detailed analysis of how the skill game(s) (including the applicant’s role in creating and/or operating such skill game(s)) will be in compliance with applicable United States and international law. For additional clarity, while creators will have control over the development and creation of a skill game, operators will have control over the continued operation of, and govern participation in, such skill games. Accordingly, each reasoned legal opinion will need to address the applicable perspective and its related risks.

---

Whether I -- a UK resident -- want to apply as a Creator or an Operator, my solicitor here will be able to give an opinion based on the relevant English (or Scots/NI as appropriate) law, but can't advise me on US law.   If I want advice on US law too,  I'll need to ask my solicitor to commission that for me separately.

By US law, do you mean US Federal law or California state law or what?    And what does "International Law" mean in this context?   Normally it refers to international treaties, but I'm not sure if that's what it's supposed to mean here. 

[Gavin Hird]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

By US law, do you mean US Federal law or California state law or what?    And what does "International Law" mean in this context?   Normally it refers to international treaties, but I'm not sure if that's what it's supposed to mean here. 

---

I also wondered about that. 

The current TOS refers to California law ( believe), but since you have listed some US states in the Prohibited States and Countries list, do we have to take different state legislation into account too, or is that something Linden Lab does, and therefore wholesale prohibits certain states. 

When it comes to International law - exactly what do you mean here? I suppose you could consider EU legislation international law as applicable to the US, but it certainly would not cover the rest of the globe.  

[Sassy Romano]

---

daisybloomer wrote:

---

Sassy Romano wrote:

Thanks there are answers to some of the questions that have come up but again:-

 

"What if the creator is also the operator" what applications have to be made, double fees?  and how many affidavit's will be needed (same one or a different one per application)?

 

---

Linden would still need to answer this officially

---

Yes they do so lets wait eh?

[Gavin Hird]

Question to Linden Lab:

The impression I get from reading the updated FAQ is that creators and operators will be registered in some public register, and that there is a quarterly fee associated with being listed there in addition to the original listing process. 

If this impression correct, and if yes, exactly what is the registry (name, url...)? 

[daisybloomer]

---

Gavin Hird wrote:

Question to Linden Lab:

The impression I get from reading the updated FAQ is that creators and operators will be registered in some public register, and that there is a quarterly fee associated with being listed there in addition to the original listing process. 

If this impression correct, and if yes, exactly what is the registry (name, url...)? 

---

From what I read on the FAQ page and elsewhere on their official pages it's a "license fee" for the creators and operators to continue having a valid license to carry on their business. No different than a monthly membership fee or driver license renewal fee everyone pays in RL

The registry I would think is just a listing to make it transparent to SL users of who and what is legit and not.

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Gavin Hird wrote:

Question to Linden Lab:

The impression I get from reading the updated FAQ is that creators and operators will be registered in some public register, and that there is a quarterly fee associated with being listed there in addition to the original listing process. 

If this impression correct, and if yes, exactly what is the registry (name, url...)? 

---

Maybe they mean Linden Lab Official Second Life Skill Gaming Approved Participants.

[WDL Bayn]

Hi LL,

Thank you for taking the time to address my specific question.

I will have more as I've already contacted a local attorney. But the 1st one is : That legal oppinion must be US oppinion or EU oppinion ? I'm based in EU. 

Thank you,

WDL Bayn

[Gavin Hird]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

---

Gavin Hird wrote:

Question to Linden Lab:

The impression I get from reading the updated FAQ is that creators and operators will be registered in some public register, and that there is a quarterly fee associated with being listed there in addition to the original listing process. 

If this impression correct, and if yes, exactly what is the registry (name, url...)? 

---

Maybe they mean

Linden Lab Official Second Life Skill Gaming Approved Participants

.

---

Maybe, but then I don't quite get the need for legal affidavits unless there is a very strong need for some cover my ass documentation that will keep LL in the clear if a violation of law is found. Particularly to the FAQ requirements of:

 

• A reasoned legal opinion from a credible attorney in good standing, which describes in detail the operation and legality of the games of skill you are submitting for approval;
• A sworn affidavit or declaration that 1) certifies the facts set forth in the application and legal opinion; and 2) attests compliance with Linden Lab’s requirements.

[Gavin Hird]

Oh, and add to that, why the quarterly fee if it basically is an internal LL registry?

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

I know I cant participate because of where I live. So, how do they regulate it? I can unless I am caught? When I started gambling was still ok, shortly after it was stopped. I think this sucks to be honest.. I cant do what others can because of where I live? Its like putting a piece of candy in front of me and saying.. No you cant have it but others can. Sorry. (not that I would because Im not in sl for skill games) Bring back the camping chairs too while you are at it.

sigh

 

Prohibited States & Countries

Residents of the following states and countries may not participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life:

• Arizona
• Arkansas
• Delaware
• Florida  <-----------------------mine
• Kentucky
• Louisiana
• Maryland
• South Carolina
• South Dakota
• Tennessee

[daisybloomer]

---

Gavin Hird wrote:

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

---

Gavin Hird wrote:

Question to Linden Lab:

The impression I get from reading the updated FAQ is that creators and operators will be registered in some public register, and that there is a quarterly fee associated with being listed there in addition to the original listing process. 

If this impression correct, and if yes, exactly what is the registry (name, url...)? 

---

Maybe they mean

Linden Lab Official Second Life Skill Gaming Approved Participants

.

---

Maybe, but then I don't quite get the need for legal affidavits unless there is a very strong need for some cover my ass documentation that will keep LL in the clear if a violation of law is found. Particularly to the FAQ requirements of:

 

• A reasoned legal opinion from a credible attorney in good standing, which describes in detail the operation and legality of the games of skill you are submitting for approval;
• A sworn affidavit or declaration that 1) certifies the facts set forth in the application and legal opinion; and 2) attests compliance with Linden Lab’s requirements.

---

I am sure legal affidavits to Linden is confirmation that you are fully aware of what was written in the application and what your attorney has written. My guess is they want this so that you, as operator or creator, or both, assume full liability should you be faced with a legal challenge and/or end up in court.

[secrets88]

Why do both proposed creators and operators need to provide reasoned legal opinions?

• As creators and operators of skill games are differently situated, unique reasoned legal opinions will be required for each creator and operator application. Each reasoned legal opinion should describe the skill game(s) submitted to Linden Lab for approval and provide a detailed analysis of how the skill game(s) (including the applicant’s role in creating and/or operating such skill game(s)) will be in compliance with applicable United States and international law. For additional clarity, while creators will have control over the development and creation of a skill game, operators will have control over the continued operation of, and govern participation in, such skill games. Accordingly, each reasoned legal opinion will need to address the applicable perspective and its related risks.

 

You still did not explain why the operator should provide a reasoned legal opinion describing the skill game(s) submitted to LL ???

It's not the operator but the creator who needs to send the games for approval ! We do not know how the GAMES WORK and we do not know which games we will rez yet !

[Gavin Hird]

---

daisybloomer wrote:

---

should you be faced with a legal challenge and/or end up in court.

---

In my neck of the woods there is no way that could ever happen as there is no mechanism to force anyone into legal proceedings in the US (which is due to the US having the death penalty in it's legislation.)