Skill Gaming Policy Thread

[Kain Cleaver]

So this may or may not have been asked or answered. But a pay to play (like a arcade game). Which has no method of payout or output of value. Is it or is it not subject to this policy.

 

Also.. I heard someone earlier state that sushant and myself are alts of each other. I want to clarify that this is not true. He is a partner that provides machines for those who do not wish to invest in purchasing machines.

 

I understand LLs need to create a system. But the system they are creating here is both too complex and costly to exist. And sadly unless something is done as a compromise it likely will lead to a reduction of traffic into this virtual world.

 

 

[Octavia Sorbet]

A few procedural questions for Linden Lab

 

If I begin the application process and do phase one, and am unable or decide not to complete phase 2, am I out the application fee?

 

When in the process is the fee deducted, only if your application is approved?

 

Will denied applications be charged the fee?

 

Thank you

Octavia

 

 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Octavia Sorbet wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Octavia Sorbet wrote:

Well this is not really about shooting galleries or chess games, so I don't know what your on about.

As has been pointed out by others, this is more about wether the game play has "a material part" depending on chance. Making apples to oranges comparisons is not helping, If you want to talk about Fire Ball, RWP, No Devil, or any other of the popular skillgames that are present in the gamerooms then I will look forward to your input.

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 On the contrary, I think this really is about shooting galleries and chess games.

Do you seriously suggest that No Devil and the rest are games 

whose outcome is "not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance"?     Go on -- try to describe how to play one of them without suggesting chance plays a material role in the outcome.

 

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Well you just made my point for me, Nobody can tell for sure one way or the other without seeing the code. Linden lab can see the code, all they need to do is look, why make 'operators' jump thru hoops?

 

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Of course you can describe the game play without seeing the code.   If a new player, in world, heard you talking to a friend about playing this game called No Devil and asked you what it was about, you wouldn't say, "sorry, I can't explain it to you without seeing the source code," would you?   

You must be more familiar with the game than am I, but how about, "You start with a 5x5 grid of random numbers between 1 and 100 (or whatever it is) and get given a row of 5 numbers at the bottom.   If any of the numbers in the row is matched by a number in the column above it, you touch the matching number, like in Bingo.   Then you ask the machine to give you another 5 numbers in the bottom row, and see if any of them match.   And this carries on for a certain number of rounds.   It's important not to miss any matches.   Some of the numbers give you a score multipier if you match them."

To my mind, chance plays a pretty significant role in the game, since it's a matter of chance what numbers the machine deals in the grid and what numbers it gives you each time, and it's also a matter of chance where the multipliers and spiders and so on are hidden.    The only skill element, such as it is, is the ability to spot when you've got a matching pair of numbers and not to miss any.

Have I got that about right?   

[Phil Deakins]

That's brilliant, Eva. Thank you for the link. I wouldn't even have known how to find the page in facebook

 

FOR ALL OPERATORS OF GREEDY GREEDY

By the end of this month, the creator will produce a free update the omits the paying out part, so it will be useable everywhere.

At the moment, he is not planning on getting a license for any of his games, but he does say that he may get one for Greedy Greedy at a later stage.

[Phil Deakins]

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Octavia Sorbet wrote:

Well you just made my point for me, Nobody can tell for sure one way or the other without seeing the code. Linden lab can see the code, all they need to do is look, why make 'operators' jump thru hoops? 

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Octavia. It is never necessary to see the code of a game to know/learn how it is played. A lot of people know how the popular games in SL are played, and play them very well indeed, without ever having seen a single line of the code.

If a legal person can use a game, and see all of the options that are available to the owner/operator, then s/he can give a perfectly good judgement about whether or not there is a significant element of chance in it, and whether or not it can be set to pay out. Knowledge of LSL and being able to see the code is never necessary to make those judgements.

 

[Gaia Gabe]

Hi Linden Lab.

 

Just a few questions to file application to become an operator :

- Echosign : you require a SSN number. I am not american. i tried to file it with my fiscal code (equivalent to your america r SNN). It was not accepted

- It is required to provide transactions from 1st of the year ...LL site allows only to dowload transactions of last 31 days . How we can do?

- it is required to provide a list of approved skill games we have...dont you think this process have to be made in 2 phases with 2 seperate deadlines? Before the games scripter (so operators will know what is allowed or not) and next the operators.

 

- you require 

• A reasoned legal opinion from a credible attorney in good standing, which describes in detail the operation and legality of the games of skill you are submitting for approval, including the creators of each game of skill;
• A sworn affidavit or declaration 1) certifies the facts set forth in the application and legal opinion; and 2) attests compliance with Linden Lab’s requirements.

Please explain me the difference beetwen those 2 points . Do not think it is the same? Dont you think that it is enough the legal stuff provided by game creator? Do we have to use a local (not american ) attorney?

 

Thank you

[Smoovious Aloix]

It would be nice if he got authorization, and made a seperate Greedy Greedy that still accepted payment, but with all the costs involved, it would be cost prohibative to do it.

 

If that version was made, it would be very expensive to recoup costs, as the market for that pay game, would be _extremely_ limited now. The only place it could reside in would be a double-tier gaming sim.

 

Same with the other creators. Jaded has most of their games (if not all) set for L$1200 to get the dummies to set up on your land so Jaded's Operator can set up their games on your land. Before, anyone who wanted to give them land/prims, could do so, keeping the cost relatively cheap. Now tho, with their effective market slashed to a small fraction of what they used to have, the price would have to reflect the very limited market.

 

So now... for small arcade operators, we're flat out of business...

 

For the mega-casino operators, not only are all of their in-world costs at least doubled (and probably more once they make up their mind what they're going to gouge you guys on the quarterly fee, and I'm not even factoring in repeated application fees as new games come out, plus the associated legal fees along with it), and then on top of it, the prices for the games themselves could very possibly go up ten-fold in price now.

 

I wonder how many of you large casino operators have figured out your new expected expenses so far, and what you found about your profitability?

 

Also, perhaps only half, or maybe even a third (and I think even a third is overly-optimistic) of the game creators are going to bother getting approved, either by choice or being unable to justify the costs to get approved, then that means a significant portion of your running games disappear, which will cut down on your revenues... as well as a chunk of your player base being unable to even TP in to play anymore.

 

Would be curious to see what the best-case/worst-case scenarios have been worked out...

 

My own worst-case scenario is easy... abandoning the land I just obtained a couple hours before the new ToS announcement, as I can't afford to go through all the hassle, for what would have been probably a USD$20/mo profit on average, under the soon-to-be-superceded ToS, for my little arcade...

 

And... THREE WEEKS!!? Madness... that is definitely not enough time to avoid this whole thing becoming one huge clusterF...

 

-- Smoov

 

[Phil Deakins]

I agree that 3 weeks is VERY short notice

The Greedy creator says it would cost him about US$2000 just to get Greedy legal, not counting the ongoing LL fees, and that's why he isn't doing it. He said he may do it later on, but I don't think he will.

[Tex Monday]

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NoemiLuv wrote:

My state doesn't qualify probably because of the age limit as Darkness and I were discusing. I don't really need to read about all the other states as I only live on one. I'm glad you found the small prints for your state Perrie. 

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 I don't know if that's the issue or not and we'd need a better answer from the Lab. I live in NJ where we have legalized gambling (in Atlantic City and now on line) and the minimum age to gamble is 21. Pennsylvania is the same way (gambling in Philly). It must be something having to do with the state laws..again, I haven't read it so I don't have a legitimate answer, but I don't think it's an age thing.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Stormie Windlow wrote:

ROFLMAO at the new Gaming TOS -Waits now to be told to apply (and pay) for my pilot's licence before rezzing my helicopter.   As I live in the UK I best not be taking out my guns, I've got no licence for them either..If we're going to apply RL laws then shouldn't it apply to everything? You cant be a "little bit" pregnant. The real reason?   Possibly trying to get RL casinos from Las Vegas interested in this 2 bit game? Futile hope.   Sits and watches as  SL moves ever closer to RL & its inevitable self destruction.

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Not a problem, lets do away with alll RL laws that apply to SL.. No more DMCAs, bring on the paedos and the kids that want to screw them, copybott what ever you feel like, make mesh of anything you want and sell it, lie cheat and steal with no repercussions.

Did you ever stop and think that there may be RL federal and state laws that apply to things outside your little world? Would you like to see pictures of RL children being raped plastered all over the place? No? But they aren't here due to RL laws.. People can't just create what they want because of RL copyright laws. If someone hacks your account and takes all of your $L you can fight to get it back... Thanks to RL laws.

Take your doom and gloom elsewhere.

[AnKayla]

I have games from a profit share avatar on my land. Will this still be legal?  I am not responsible for it but can they still do the profit share for me? Will Iose the business from them now? 

Also  what if someone lives in another country and owns a full region.  Do they have to become an operator and pay the attorney fees and license? The sim owner from another country? 

[MarmelaGramela Doesburg]

So true

Just then I can stay real ife to start with

[secrets88]

Completely agreed with Gaia. Please Linden answer to these questions.

[Surfaqua Oh]

Thank you Perrie :-)

[AnKayla]

Not too good with these threads but can someone help with this question?  I have to pay tier and am not sure if profit share can still be here? I don't want to lose linden

 

I have games from a profit share avatar on my land. Will this still be legal?  I am not responsible for it but can they still do the profit share for me?  Will I lose their business now ? 

[Gavin Hird]

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Parrish Ashbourne wrote:

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AnKayla wrote:

I have games from a profit share avatar on my land. Will this still be legal?  I am not responsible for it but can they still do the profit share for me? Will Iose the business from them now? 

Also  what if someone lives in another country and owns a full region.  Do they have to become an operator and pay the attorney fees and license? The sim owner from another country? 

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Yes because someone living in another country would still be a risk to LL that could get all of SL shut down, in addition they would be causing a risk to everyone who played those games in SL, because the US government all so goes after individual accounts for gambling issues. 

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Sorry, but since this thread is a Linden thread and they have been asked very specific policy questions, I think you should let them answer questions like this. If you answer on behalf of Linden Lab, you should say so. 

Thanks!

[MarmelaGramela Doesburg]

Which is solved by making it dependant on your place of residence. But if your place of residence allows gambling, why then he sanctions on the games themselves? This makes no sense at all.

[MarmelaGramela Doesburg]

then why this meant

[Perrie Juran]

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Surfaqua Oh wrote:

Thank you Perrie :-)

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Mind you, I am not a Lawyer.  And as the old saying goes,

THE LARGE PRINT GIVETH

but the fine print taketh away.

 

And while I would not expect LL to explain their internals, my guess would be that they are not going to 'blindly' accept applications.  They will probably be reviewed by an attorney to make sure all the i's are dotted and all the t's are crossed.

[daisybloomer]

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AnKayla wrote:

Not too good with these threads but can someone help with this question?  I have to pay tier and am not sure if profit share can still be here? I don't want to lose linden

 

I have games from a profit share avatar on my land. Will this still be legal?  I am not responsible for it but can they still do the profit share for me?  Will I lose their business now ? 

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Going exactly based on what LL's new Second Life Skill Gaming Policy says you would fall under as an "Operator" since you are collecting money from it and your game would classify as a "Skill Game" since people are having to pay-to-play. That means you will have to apply to be an operator and move to a Skill Gaming Region if you wished to continue what you are doing now.

[Marishka Ixito]

I have games from a profit share avatar on my land. Will this still be legal?  I am not responsible for it but can they still do the profit share for me?  Will I lose their business now ?

Ankayla,

I assume your post refers to games that take money from players and pay out..

The new gaming policy has been announced to take effect from August 1, 2014.

Until then, and maybe for a while thereafter (while LL sorts through the pile of applications), you should be safe,
Thereafter, these things should have been settled:

1. The games creator could decide not to apply for licencing, or such license gets denied by LL. In that case you're out of luck (non certified games that take money from players and have a payout will be "illegal" in SL once the new policy is effective).

2. If the games get licensed as proper games of skill then from the date the new policy is in effect they will still be allowed in SL, but only in "special gaming regions".

3. If you own a full sim you can apply to have your sim designated as a "gaming region" (additional costs involved).

4. If you don't own a full sim you can rent/buy a parcel on such a sim from someone else (higher tier/rent involved).

5. To "operate" a gaming business in SL you'll still need an "operator license" (costs involved) 

6. Theoretically, you're not the "operator" when the physical games aren't yours so you wouldn't need the "operator license", however, when buying/renting a parcel on someone elses gaming sim, you should consider several other factors:

a. The whole "profit sharing" may not work under the new rules because of restrictions on payments that operator accounts can make;
b. On such a gaming sim you'd be surrounded by competitors (which might be a blessing or a curse)
c. You better make sure the sim owner allows "subletting" or your business model won't work there anyway, regardless of what I mentioned under a.

kind regards,

Marishka

 

[Gavin Hird]

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daisybloomer wrote:

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Going exactly based on what LL's new Second Life Skill Gaming Policy says you would fall under as an "Operator" since you are collecting money from it and your game would classify as a "Skill Game" since people are having to pay-to-play. That means you will have to apply to be an operator and move to a Skill Gaming Region if you wished to continue what you are doing now.

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Again mr/ms new resident with one post, you need to let Linden lab answer these policy questions. 

In general it is important that people who are not policy makers (Linden Lab) make their statements as opinions of how the policy may be understood – and your opinion may actually be 100% correct. But it is still only an opinion. 

Not to muddle the discussion, please let Linden Lab make direct answers to questions asked to them. 

Thanks again! ;-)

[daisybloomer]

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Marishka Ixito wrote:

6. Theoretically, you're not the "operator" when the physical games aren't yours so you wouldn't need the "operator license", however, when buying/renting a parcel on someone elses gaming sim, you should consider several other factors:

a. The whole "profit sharing" may not work under the new rules because of restrictions on payments that operator accounts can make;

...

kind regards,

 

Marishka

 

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If I am reading the policy right, she still is considered an "Operator." She is collecting money from those machines whether in part or whole, hence part of the whole operating activity with them. An example in RL would be like a business where they may lease all their equipment to operate daily. They may not be the creator, owner or servicer of them but still using or operating them to run their business.

[daisybloomer]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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daisybloomer wrote:

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Going exactly based on what LL's new Second Life Skill Gaming Policy says you would fall under as an "Operator" since you are collecting money from it and your game would classify as a "Skill Game" since people are having to pay-to-play. That means you will have to apply to be an operator and move to a Skill Gaming Region if you wished to continue what you are doing now.

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Again mr/ms new resident with one post, you need to let Linden lab answer these policy questions. 

In general it is important that people who are not policy makers (Linden Lab) make their statements as opinions of how the policy may be understood – and your opinion may actually be 100% correct. But it is still only an opinion. 

Not to muddle the discussion, please let Linden Lab make direct answers to questions asked to them. 

Thanks again! ;-)

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Gavin, it's fair to ask for a response from them to all these questions and I would like to hear what they have to say too, but you know as well as I do (if you have read the remainder of these posts in this thread) that they go straight to the Skill Gaming Policy and quote and re-quote that. My guess? Most likely because that may be what they can go as far as doing maybe on the suggestion of their legal counsel. I suppose we shall see.

[Gavin Hird]

What the OP needs to do (or can do) is to edit the first post with all the questions they have noted, with a status (answered, unanswered) and the anwer with the question in pairs. 

I don't care if they have to go back to legal – even if it takes to August 1, but they need to have very clear answers and have thought the issues through.