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Read the wiki, people!  It answers most of these repetitive questions.  If you're looking for clarity of the language, that's up to you to interpret, which is why LL is intentionally vague and has posted the wiki excerpts a million times.

Links are available on page 1 of this thread, first post, but if you're too lazy to click twice, here:

Skill Gaming Policy

Read it, take it literally, interpret it as it applies to you, move forward.  Oh and accept complete responsibility and consequences. :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

 

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Gavin Hird wrote:

What the OP needs to do (or can do) is to edit the first post with all the questions they have noted, with a status (answered, unanswered) and the anwer with the question in pairs. 

I don't care if they have to go back to legal – even if it takes to August 1, but they need to have very clear answers and have thought the issues through. 

And what questions would that be? I've read through all the information they have posted on it and it seems clear cut and answers all the questions here. The only issue I can see is the semi-short timeframe in which to implement this. I would say with everyone's busy schedule (residents here, attorneys, etc.) 1 month time would be much more reasonable.

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daisybloomer wrote:


Gavin Hird wrote:

What the OP needs to do (or can do) is to edit the first post with all the questions they have noted, with a status (answered, unanswered) and the anwer with the question in pairs. 

I don't care if they have to go back to legal – even if it takes to August 1, but they need to have very clear answers and have thought the issues through. 

And what questions would that be? I've read through all the information they have posted on it and it seems clear cut and answers all the questions here. The only issue I can see is the semi-short timeframe in which to implement this. I would say with everyone's busy schedule (residents here, attorneys, etc.) 1 month time would be much more reasonable.

I'd be willing to wager show faith in my analytical skills that the large makers of "skill gaming" machines and their big operators have known about what was coming for some time and in fact played a part in determining the new policies. It would have been a lot easier for the Lab just to shut down the businesses that would be affected by the policies than to set up some sort of new record-keeping system as they're doing. It's worth noting that the biggest independent landowner in Second Life made her very first posting on this forum minutes after the announcement and said that she would be renting out skill-gaming regions but needed policy clarification.

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"a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. " okay, so any game RUN BY AN ACTUAL PERSON is in no way subject to any of this. is this correct? or is it that you can't answer that because "As each game differs in its operational functions, we are unable to provide opinions of whether a specific game would be subject to our Skill Gaming Policy via this forum. Each creator and operator of games will need to evaluate whether their game(s) would be subject to, and in compliance with, this policy." ? i'm talking like trivia games, primtionary games, building contests, hosted races, etc -- in which 1: if the person wins, it is because of their skill. 2: it permits payment of linden dollars (ie: tips). 3: it provides payout in linden dollars. 4: ??? i know everybody is talking about game machines and tables, which ARE subject to the new ruling, but i'm trying to determine if these other things definitely are not, or will be because there are loopholes that might apply to them. thank you.

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I don't remember ever having to pay to play primtionary or trivia or a speed build game contest run by a host. If you don't pay in I don't see how it falls under this policy.

 

Edit : At tip is not something required and in many cases is never given. It also pretty much happens after the event. As long as it is not required to pay a "Tip" then I don't see the contest falling under this. If there is no pay to play it is not under this.

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Hi Drake,

Games of chance are and have been prohibited by the Wagering Policy. If you encounter what you believe are such objects, you can file an abuse report if it's an inworld object or flag an item on the Marketplace via the exisiting flagging system there.

Thank you,

 

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Gavin Hird wrote:

It is entirely up to the OP to identify the questions and if they are clear cut, they can readily be answered in Q+A pairs. If they need to go back to Legal, then say so. 

Take care now ;-)

Your right, every question does need to be answered by LL.  Though a lot of questions probably can be answered by first a careful reading of the revised policies.  That is how I realized my Market Place suggestion was askew.  There is no way a skill game creator can control who buys their games on the MP.  (Actually I can think of ways but they may not be practical).

But still thinking about it I do think there is a valid point in saying that the way Games in general are listed on the MP may need reviewed.  I could be wrong.  But I do hope my thoughts on this get passed on to the appropriate person(s) for review.

Lastly, we should always remember that

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The questions around normal SL residents and operators with residence outside of the US is in my opinion a complete can of worms that needs much more clarification from Linden Lab. 

Inside the EU internet gambling is generally legal, but what is legal may be completely different from what is legal in the US. There are also differences amongst  the countries. 

Other questions that spring to mind is; shall EU operators pay VAT on the full cost of the new sim type, the legal (setup) fees and quarterly fees substantially disadvantaging those operators that will be slapt on 20+% additional cost – which in reality makes it close to impossbile to compete. 

Also, if I register as an operator, do I have to register as the same with the correct authorities in my country of residence, or is that part of the package (which I dubt it is.)

So there are a number of issues needing clarification here, and I don't see the policy sheding much light on issues for non US operators (and even residents.)

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Linden Lab wrote:

Hi Drake,

Games of chance are and have been prohibited by the 
. If you encounter what you believe are such objects, you can file an abuse report if it's an inworld object or flag an item on the Marketplace via the exisiting flagging system there.

Thank you,

 

Thank you for that clarification.   Which of the categories in the existing Marketplace flagging system (shown in the picture below) should we use to flag games of chance?  

At first glance, none of them seem particularly appropriate.

marketplace flag categories.png

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Octavia Sorbet wrote:

A few procedural questions for Linden Lab

 

If I begin the application process and do phase one, and am unable or decide not to complete phase 2, am I out the application fee?

 

When in the process is the fee deducted, only if your application is approved?

 

Will denied applications be charged the fee?

 

Thank you

Octavia

 

 

This questions is answered here in the FAQs, thanks!

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Unless i've missed, it, Linden Lab STILL has not responded to many requests about the reason for both creator and operator to supply an affidavit.

Can the operator refer to the creators affidavit if made available?

New question: What if the creator is also the operator, do you still need two different fees and now separate affidavit's if so why? If not then it infers that a more generic affidavit from the creator could be used by the operator perhaps?

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Linden Lab wrote:

Hi Drake,

Games of chance are and have been prohibited by the 
. If you encounter what you believe are such objects, you can file an abuse report if it's an inworld object or flag an item on the Marketplace via the exisiting flagging system there.

Thank you,

 

Thank you for that clarification.   Which of the categories in the existing Marketplace flagging system (shown in the picture below) should we use to flag games of chance?  

At first glance, none of them seem particularly appropriate.

marketplace flag categories.png


I'd say the first one on the list "Item Not As Advertised."

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Romina Heron wrote:

a simple question for a clear answer:  no devil...zyngo...what about these games? allowed or prohibited?

 

Romina, if you have to right-click it and pay to play then I would think it falls under the "Skill Game" definition in the new policy, hence would be prohibited if you are not licensed with Linden after August 1. The only exception I can see to that would be if it was a non-paying into version of those games.

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AnKayla wrote:

To be a skilled games region owner I would have to become an operator?

From reading the policy carefully, if you are just owning the land and not going to be the one to rez and profit/get paid/maintain from those machines then you would not fall under the "Operator" definition, hence no license needed.

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Direct question to daisybloomer: Are you a Linden person using an alt account answering these question that are CLEARELY not addressed to you?

If that is the case, you need to tell us, otherwise I'll have to issue a Shill Alert Warning for your account that in 6 posts have gone from "new resident" to "recognized resident"?

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AnKayla wrote:

I have games from a profit share avatar on my land. Will this still be legal?  I am not responsible for it but can they still do the profit share for me? Will Iose the business from them now? 

Also  what if someone lives in another country and owns a full region.  Do they have to become an operator and pay the attorney fees and license? The sim owner from another country? 

Hi AnKayla,


As Linden Lab does not have full access to every game’s operational functions and does not exercise control over such games, we are unable to provide opinions of whether a specific game would be subject to our Skill Gaming Policy, in this forum. Each creator and operator of games will need to evaluate whether their game(s) would be subject to, and in compliance with, this policy.

We reiterate that a game of skill is defined as “a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law.” Moreover, “[g]ames in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy.”

For more details, we strongly recommend reviewing the Skill Gaming Policy and Skill Gaming Program Terms and Conditions. This policy applies to all residents.

 

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Romina Heron wrote:

a simple question for a clear answer:  no devil...zyngo...what about these games? allowed or prohibited?

 

As Linden Lab does not have full access to every game’s operational functions and does not exercise control over such games, we are unable to provide opinions of whether a specific game would be subject to our Skill Gaming Policy, in this forum. Each creator and operator of games will need to evaluate whether their game(s) would be subject to, and in compliance with, this policy.

We reiterate that a game of skill is defined as “a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law.” Moreover, “[g]ames in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy.”

For more details, we strongly recommend reviewing the Skill Gaming Policy and Skill Gaming Program Terms and Conditions

 

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Yuriko Nishi wrote:

hi =)

 

that raises a few questions.

 

we run a car race sim.

the racers have to buy a car to run in our races.

after each race the best drivers get a payout from the sim owner.

 

do these new rules apply to us?

 

2ndly

 

we run demolition derbys...

the racers have to pay the operator of the races 20 L$.

after the derby the top 3 split the pot between them.

 

do these new rules apply to us?

As Linden Lab does not have full access to every game’s operational functions and does not exercise control over such games, we are unable to provide opinions of whether a specific game would be subject to our Skill Gaming Policy, in this forum. Each creator and operator of games will need to evaluate whether their game(s) would be subject to, and in compliance with, this policy.

We reiterate that a game of skill is defined as “a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law.” Moreover, “[g]ames in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy.”

For more details, we strongly recommend reviewing the Skill Gaming Policy and Skill Gaming Program Terms and Conditions. This policy applies to all residents.

 

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Gavin Hird wrote:

The questions around normal SL residents and operators with residence outside of the US is in my opinion a complete can of worms that needs much more clarification from Linden Lab. 

Inside the EU internet gambling is generally legal, but what is legal may be completely different from what is legal in the US. There are also differences amongst  the countries. 

Other questions that spring to mind is; shall EU operators pay VAT on the full cost of the new sim type, the legal (setup) fees and quarterly fees substantially disadvantaging those operators that will be slapt on 20+% additional cost – which in reality makes it close to impossbile to compete. 

Also, if I register as an operator, do I have to register as the same with the correct authorities in my country of residence, or is that part of the package (which I dubt it is.)

So there are a number of issues needing clarification here, and I don't see the policy sheding much light on issues for non US operators (and even residents.)

I would thought that those are obvious questions to ask your attorney at the same time you're asking for an opinion on the game.   

I certainly wouldn't expect, or even ask,  LL to give me reliable advice on UK law and taxes.   Even if I were a US resident I wouldn't expect them to give me legal or tax advice.

LL here are telling us what we need to do -- wherever we are based -- to operate games of skill in SL with LL's approval. It's my responsibility, not LL's,  to ensure I'm acting within English law.   

As to the VAT, that's charged on all electronic goods and services for which LL bill you if you live somewhere where VAT is payable, so I would expect we'll have to pay it.   It would be helpful, I agree, to have confirmation of this, but I would be amazed if it weren't liable to VAT.

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Gavin Hird wrote:

Direct question to daisybloomer: Are you a Linden person using an alt account answering these question that are CLEARELY not addressed to you?

If that is the case, you need to tell us, otherwise I'll have to issue a
Shill Alert Warning
for your account that in 6 posts have gone from "new resident" to "recognized resident"?

Gavin, I am not sure what issue you have with me contributing to this thread. I am not associated with Linden, and basing my answers using common sense, logic, and most importantly exactly what is written in the new gaming policy, wiki, and faq pages they have out. I have read the material a dozen times and using it as the black and white guideline to help answer some of the questions here. Not sure why you are trying to make this personal and threaten me, instead of productively talking about the topic.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Gavin Hird wrote:

The questions around normal SL residents and operators with residence outside of the US is in my opinion a complete can of worms that needs much more clarification from Linden Lab. 

Inside the EU internet gambling is generally legal, but what is legal may be completely different from what is legal in the US. There are also differences amongst  the countries. 

Other questions that spring to mind is; shall EU operators pay VAT on the full cost of the new sim type, the legal (setup) fees and quarterly fees substantially disadvantaging those operators that will be slapt on 20+% additional cost – which in reality makes it close to impossbile to compete. 

Also, if I register as an operator, do I have to register as the same with the correct authorities in my country of residence, or is that part of the package (which I dubt it is.)

So there are a number of issues needing clarification here, and I don't see the policy sheding much light on issues for non US operators (and even residents.)

I would thought that those are obvious questions to ask your attorney at the same time you're asking for an opinion on the game.   

I certainly wouldn't expect, or even ask,  LL to give me reliable advice on UK law and taxes.   Even if I were a US resident I wouldn't expect them to advise me on such matters.

LL here are telling us what we need to do -- wherever we are based -- to operate games of skill in SL with LL's approval. It's my responsibility, not LL's,  to ensure I'm acting within English law.   

As to the VAT, that's charged on all electronic goods and services for which LL bill you if you live somewhere where VAT is payable, so I would expect we'll have to pay it.   It would be helpful, I agree, to have confirmation of this, but I would be amazed if it weren't liable to VAT.

From what I can read from what has been posted, LL will during the application process give advice to what applies to US legislation and even do the paperwork to get you registered as an operator in some public registry. I suspect there will be no assitance on EU issues which may come as an additional burden on those who apply from outside of the US. But I may be totally wrong.

What we, perhaps, could expect in the application process is some advice on what may be generally acceptable in the EU, but not in the US – something that may create a much narrower band for which such sims and games a EU resident was allowed to enter or participate in (if at all). This would also then apply to operators.

Being a US company, but catering to an international audience, I'd expect Linden lab to at least have some rudimentary answers on these issues. 

I think the VAT issue is a done deal, but confirmation would be good to have.  ;-)

 

 

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The problem is simply they muddle the message.

A casual reader or someone who does not have the energy to read the entire thread and see the full context may get the wrong message or idea because it is stated with "such authority" that people may walk away with the impression this is how it is. 

We saw this repeatedly in the age verification discussion where confusion prevaled. 

It is therefore much better for everyone to await clear, consise statements from the policy maker on direct question for them. 

... and it is not personal ;-)

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