Smoovious Aloix

Yeah, operators should have a later deadline than creators... imagine this case... You have a dozen operators, all shelling out the expenses for a lawyer's opinion, affidavit, the application costs to LL... and then end up having the creator's games that all dozen of those operators are using, either end up having their games denied, or the creators decide to close up shop instead of go through the hassle. So you end up having all of the operators end up spending easily up to a couple/few thousand dollars jumping through hoops for no reason, and their cames ended up not being approved anyways, even if their legal opinions would have ended up approving the operators. So LL gets to keep the application fees, all of the operators have just taken a big hit, for nothing. The games have to be approved first. It is just rediculous to have to go through the process as an operator, when no games have gone through approval yet. -- Smoov

I did plenty of gambling as a child... but the reason they want to play SL as a child, isn't any business of ours... as long as they are of qualified age RL, what do I care? -- Smoov

I'm 98% certain, that child avis won't be barred from gaming sims... would be next to impossible to prevent anywways... what they are concerned with is the RL age of the person behind the avatar, not the visible age of the avatar itself. -- Smoov

It would be nice if he got authorization, and made a seperate Greedy Greedy that still accepted payment, but with all the costs involved, it would be cost prohibative to do it. If that version was made, it would be very expensive to recoup costs, as the market for that pay game, would be _extremely_ limited now. The only place it could reside in would be a double-tier gaming sim. Same with the other creators. Jaded has most of their games (if not all) set for L$1200 to get the dummies to set up on your land so Jaded's Operator can set up their games on your land. Before, anyone who wanted to give them land/prims, could do so, keeping the cost relatively cheap. Now tho, with their effective market slashed to a small fraction of what they used to have, the price would have to reflect the very limited market. So now... for small arcade operators, we're flat out of business... For the mega-casino operators, not only are all of their in-world costs at least doubled (and probably more once they make up their mind what they're going to gouge you guys on the quarterly fee, and I'm not even factoring in repeated application fees as new games come out, plus the associated legal fees along with it), and then on top of it, the prices for the games themselves could very possibly go up ten-fold in price now. I wonder how many of you large casino operators have figured out your new expected expenses so far, and what you found about your profitability? Also, perhaps only half, or maybe even a third (and I think even a third is overly-optimistic) of the game creators are going to bother getting approved, either by choice or being unable to justify the costs to get approved, then that means a significant portion of your running games disappear, which will cut down on your revenues... as well as a chunk of your player base being unable to even TP in to play anymore. Would be curious to see what the best-case/worst-case scenarios have been worked out... My own worst-case scenario is easy... abandoning the land I just obtained a couple hours before the new ToS announcement, as I can't afford to go through all the hassle, for what would have been probably a USD$20/mo profit on average, under the soon-to-be-superceded ToS, for my little arcade... And... THREE WEEKS!!? Madness... that is definitely not enough time to avoid this whole thing becoming one huge clusterF... -- Smoov

PaisleeRose wrote: The site you sent me too is not showing the list of approved skilled games. None have been approved yet. -- Smoov

Before getting a lawyer involved (who, at this point, is going to want clarification like I am wanting) those items are going to need to be defined, or that's what the legal fight is going to be about. The letter of what is written, about what an Operator is, is what matters here, and, as written, I would not qualify as being an Operator for the Jaded games, I would only be the parcel owner. A good attorney would make the same argument. Whenever there is something that is vague, that is a spot where the argument of if it is even applicable, comes into play. If an Operator is considered to be someone who IS this, AND IS this, AND IS that... and I only satisfy two of those three? Then the equation is false, and I am not an Operator... change those ANDs to ORs, and then the equation is true, and I am an Operator. Lawyers live for these kinds of technicalities, and we have to go by what is actually written, not what we may, or may not, like them to be. Hence, the need for more specific clarification, by someone in a position to know, what the policy is supposed to be, and able to make changes to the ToS to make the policy actually say precisely what they intended. Unwritten intentions don't count in contract law, only what was actually written and agreed to. -- Smoov

Linden Lab wrote: Hi Smoovious, To the extent that your activities would fall within the definition of "Operator", such activities would require a license. For more information on the destinction between a "Region Owner" and "Operator", please review the Skill Gaming Policy. Thank you, Sorry, Linden, but your answer was just as vague as what I was asking clarification on... What specifically, qualifies as an Operator... as, in my case, from my understanding, I would fall somewhere between "Region Owner" and "Operator"... I'll explain. I used to operate a small arcade. Nothing big or fancy... started with a small parcel on mainland with 1 type of game, later expanded to 5 types of games on another larger mainland parcel... I never made a profit, I just did this for fun, and played the games myself using my main (all of my construction is done on alts). If I was to continue this, I would end up renting a parcel on a gaming sim (possibly owned by Anshe if she chooses to convert some of her sims to gaming sims) and, unlike before with my little arcade in a spot where no other gaming was, I would be crowded into a sim with many other people also running their own arcades, and most likely a lot of duplication on the games we offered... (but I digress) “Region Owner” shall mean a Second Life resident who licenses Inworld land from Linden Lab. I would not be a Region Owner, in this case... Anshe would be... I'm just a tenant in this context, and I don't believe I would be required to go through an application process, simply to rent a parcel on a gaming sim. For example, if I had a small shop open that sold gaming-related merchandise, like T-shirts with a royal flush on them, a large money bag worn over the shoulder while walking around, perhaps a Whale avatar wearing a tux, other silly stuff with a gaming theme, but would seem appropriate on a gaming sim, even tho I wouldn't be engaging in gaming... so just being a tenant on a gaming sim, wouldn't mean I would have to get Region Owner approval, since I don't own the region. “Operator” shall mean a Second Life resident recognized by Linden Lab through the Skill Gaming application process to place and operate approved Skill Game(s) in a Skill Gaming Region, in accordance with Linden Lab’s requirements.If I installed Jaded Kicker games instead, for example, I would not be an Operator, either. While I would be rezzing out dummy prims that the Operator of the games would later replace with the actual game board, I would, in effect, only be leasing out space/prims on my parcel in exchange for a fee from Jaded. Jaded is the Operator of the game, not me. I don't control the game, have no logs to check on for missed payouts, I have no access to the system whatsoever. All the 'dummys' serve as, is an invitation to Jaded to place one of their games in that spot, which they can accept or deny as they wish. Jaded does the actual placing of the game, and Jaded does the actual operation of the game, which makes Jaded the Operator, not me. Now, if I installed a couple games from a different vendor (which I have 2 of) who doesn't use their own network, and I control the games and the accounting (even if I still can't see the script), then yes, I would qualify as an Operator, as while the Creator made the games, they don't Operate the games, I do. So... see why this needs more detailed, and specific, clarification, about what exactly qualifies as one or the other, than just you pointing back to the FAQ which we all have already read forwards and backwards by now trying to figure out how we can survive this ToS change? Please address my concerns, in a more direct manner, if you are permitted to, Linden. -- Smoov

Octavia Sorbet wrote: ... Another reason this policy is unfair is because it favors very large game operators over the small independent operator. Many gameroom operations are currently in clubs and only consist of a handful of games. This policy shuts down the casual gameroom operator completely. It seems as if the lindens sat in a room with the good ole boys of skillgaming... like maybe the sushants and a few other creator/operators and came up with a way to establish a monopoly in the sl skillgaming business. ... Not unlike the way the land business went years ago, when the legacy owners got 'grandfathered' into a separate group that got lower tiers for their sims, while the rest of us couldn't have access to the same discounts, effectively locking out any new players who wanted to enter the land baron business... This always happens with more and more regulation... the biggest can survive, and all of the smaller competition trying to compete, get crushed out of the market completely, when the only ones who can afford the regulatory environment are the biggest companies. -- Smoov

Oh, jeez, yeah, I totally forgot about that... so many creators I knew left because of that... So with that rule in place, I wonder how that affects LL's liability even further? Since they now have the rights to the software and objects, a creative attorney might be able to craft an argument that makes LL a cooperating partner in whatever fraud one of the games might end up being involved with (should it happen), and since LL's endorsement of the game (however they want to call it, they do endorse and approve of the authorized games) it would be very hard for LL to argue about being a disinterested party when they have chosen to take a very active participation in the gaming community as a whole, to the point of putting their stamp of approval on the game to operate within their world. Also, since they are now defacto co-owners of the content (thanks to their ToS update), could it be argued that they are in some kind of partnership with them now? When before, they could have gotten away with staying distant and uninvolved in the activities the users chose to engage in for themselves? I wish we had a lawyer in here who could toss that thought around for a bit for us, possibilities, what might fly, what might not... should be an interesting read. -- Smoov

It was already argued in that way for the cones (and other systems, like the Meetro) to remain compliant, when LL stamped out "camping" years ago, which was often used to boost traffic. That system, you'd basically stand on a prim... and you could just be sitting, or like in some clubs, dancing... and different camping chairs would sometimes offer a different hourly rate, and you'd just stay in one spot and dance or do whatever other animation, if any at all... one club I went to often to camp at, also had a SLingo game going so many of us would play that while we camped. This was considered a form of traffic fraud tho. While not directly banned by the ToS now (as far as I know) the method for counting traffic was changed to make camping much less effective and it pretty much died out as a means of boosting traffic ratings... the cones and other 'lure' type systems to generate traffic replaced that. The cones were billed as a way to see new places tho, and had an interactive component so you had to be active while using them... or at least active enough to satisfy the captcha... lots of the older camping included links to small programs that kept your mouse moving so you wouldn't get marked Away and disconnected after an hour... lots of camping spots also wouldn't pay if you were Away... As a means for exploring, which is claimed as the primary reason for the cones (and coins, being considered a game itself... like the ones that remind me of mario bros) is enough to satisfy the 'no camping' rule I'd think... if not, then I imagine the argument could be made about clubs in so many mall areas being there only for camping as we just stand around there listening... the effect is the same, but primarily we're there for music. (I iknow this isn't really relevant... I started talking about it meaning to link it in after a little history, but now I lost whatever connection I thought I had and have nowhere to go from here ) The point is that nothing is wagered, there is no random component, and you can't lose. With the traffic lure systems, it is a straight pay-for-service model, and you, as the hopper, don't have a way to lose anything. You're simply performing a task and getting paid for the task. You aren't risking anything yourself, or placing any kind of bet. Therefore the traffic lure systems don't apply to the new policy. (with the exception of the grid-wide sploder systems, which are intended more for traffic generation like the lure systems, but at heart, they are still sploders, so those will probably violate the ToS... the only sploders I've seen that had any kind of "skill" component to them, were solely for making sure the entrant was a human and not a bot... not to affect the result itself... tho admittedly, I haven't seen all of them) -- Smoov

TerryDavidd wrote: Actually thats not quite how the games work , but thank you for your opinion. I think his point was more about how else those rules could be stretched to impact other things... How many times in RL has a law been passed, that we were told was narrow and specific, which turned out to be more vague and broad than expected, that impacted so much more than was ever intended, just because of the specific language that was passed? They think they are defining what qualifies, but there is a lot of room for interpretation still... some of which is what is considered a "game" in the first place... He sees a possible interpretation that could affect those things. Worthwhile to get a definitive comment on it that we could point to later if it ever becomes an issue. (as for the cones? I don't see that being relevant here, as I don't see those as being wager-related or skill-related... the landowner is paying for visitor traffic, and the people hopping the cones are getting paid specifically for visiting locations... effectively being hired for micro periods of time at each hop. The only random component is where they go to next, and I don't even think that's actually random... except for the captcha to foil bots) -- Smoov

One other question comes to mind... who exactly is the Operator, anyways? Most of the games I have (5) are Jaded Kickers games... I don't operate the games, Jaded operates them... all I do is offer space on my land for them to place them on, and in return for letting them have them on my land, they pay me for it. I don't administer the games at all, if there is a problem with one, the customer deals with Jaded, not me. I have no ability to do anything with the games of any substance which would qualify me as being an 'operator' of said game. I'm simply a landlord for Jaded in this case. Would I need to still be an authorized Operator, to rent land on a gaming sim, even tho I don't own any of the games that reside on my parcel, when I don't own the sim myself? We need a clearly detailed response on this... what _precisely_ is an Operator here? -- Smoov

Linden Lab wrote: It appears that our response may have been taken out of context. A game of skill is defined as "a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. " Thank you, "1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance" This rule makes all current "skill games" ineligible, as every last one of them is contingent, "in material part", upon chance. Also, if all those games are still considered legal, then Poker should still be considered legal, as there are plenty of rulings that have occurred, stating that Poker is a game of skill, and not gambling, like slot machines would be. (that's another argument tho) -- Smoov

Aizur Zessinthal wrote: So if I make a game you can pay L$ to for additional items, special power ups, etc, then its a pay to play game? Or not? Does Bloodlines run afoul of this, since you have to pay ongoing costs to the game if you cannot find human to spam-err, bite? That's a pretty vague requirement if paying the game to play can be used as a single point determinator to decide if a game is a Game of Skill or not, since you no longer need to consider if the game pays money back out to participants. Is that what you are telling us, that if a game meets any of the 4 points in the guidelines, then it's a game of skill? And how is this going to affect places like Capital Exchange and The Rock, who do stock-trading? Those types of businesses could also loosely be considered gambling too... they came close to being axed through the banking ban, and now with how vague some of the language in this is, could the argument be made that they also have to be approved and reside in skill gaming territory? I really wanted to reopen my small arcade... and was in the process of doing so, but now with the LL costs effectively being doubled (and possibly more, since some of the extra charges still haven't been specified.), even us small operators will have to cluster together on the same sim instead of spreading out like we would prefer to do. This stinks on so many levels... and then who knows how much the attorney fees are going to be to get the required opinion they want operators to supply, when we aren't even in a position to examine the inner workings of the games themselves? If LL approves (which effectively endorses via a rubber stamp about its legitimacy) of the specific game, WHY is it on the operator to have to prove it yet again, when LL has already authorized it? On top of that, since LL is taking such an involvement in the gaming community, that opens up a lot more liability for LL... and considering the way they abandoned adult verification, to shed liability, is that really something they actually want to take on? That would make them a much more active participant, and if something happens with a game that they approved of, they become a party to it, instead of standing apart and just being the people who maintain the infastructure we all reside in. Am I going to be willing to pay hundreds (perhaps a thousand or more) USD to get me, and my few games, apprioved, and pay double-tier for my small arcade, which, even under the previous rules, still would have only made me enough to cover my tier with a couple thousand L$ a month extra to buy clothes and gadgets with? And SLL is fake currency in the first place! It says so right in LL's ToS! If I'm never cashing out anything (and I never have, yet) from the grid, how does it even become an outside legal matter, when, by definition, this is still game currency (Second Life), which is spent on items within the game, and never sees the real world? How would other games that have their own currency be able to operate under these conditions too? World of Warcraft? Star Trek Online? Both of which actually have fully random gambling within their worlds. I think this is going to turn out to be a huge clusterf*ck for Linden Labs, and a huge mess for us trying to have our own bit of fun in-world. There are already regulations in place for those businesses who are profitable enough and withdraw a real-world income from their activities in SL. This is just nuts all around, sorry, LL, but it is... -- Smoov

Sassy Romano wrote: (Suggestion, host the platform in one of many forward thinking countries that doesn't have issues with this pettiness. Excuse me while I depart to turn on the TV for terrestrial broadcasts, not some hidden away cable channel, to watch gambling programmes, not that I have an interest but simply BECAUSE I CAN!) I just know that nobody better be coming around me for a while talking about how we're supposedly the free-est nation on the planet, and our "liberties" and the rest, when we aren't even free to do what we want with our own fake money. -- Smoov

Linden Lab wrote: Hi Perrie, Second Life residents will need to make this determination on a case by case basis to the extent that they believe that their "sploders", contest boards, and other objects are deemed a game of skill (instead of chance which is still prohibited under our Wagering Policy), and will need to comply with our updated Skill Gaming Policy. regards, Ok... so... the way that is read... clubs cannot use sploders, or contest boards... or anything else skill based... unless the club resides on an approved gaming sim... which costs almost double than a normal sim, because of your 'compliance fee'... and no gaming sim is going to permit a club on it as it lags out the sim affecting the games... so contest board and sploders, if they are not deemed a "game of skill", are prohibited outright... is the way I am understanding it right now... I don't think you're quite aware of just how much of a detrimental impact this policy is going to have on the grid... and perhaps you guys need to do a thorough re-think of your policies about this. Too often you guys make decisions that are detrimental to the grid, without taking into account how they will affect the grid in the first place... like the marketplace impact on land ownership for one, and how removing telehubs and enabling TP-anywhere, ruined the mainlands... (am pissed after just winning an auction on mainland for a parcel I had planned on ressurecting my arcade on, just to find out about this with no way to cancel my bids, and I just lost the purchase cost, plus a USD $25 land usage fee, for a parcel I'm about to abandon as it is useless to me now, because of this announcement... and who can afford to get lawyer's opinions for something that is just supposed to be something fun to run for a few dollars a month to buy clothes with? ... all this benefits is the mega-casino operators, and the rest of us doing this for fun get screwed... AGAIN... grr...)

None of that makes it a "Grandfathered Sim" tho, so yer advertising falsely... tho I am assuming, unintentionally... A "Grandfathered Sim" is one which is still being charged the old maintenance fee of, in a full-sim's case, US$195/mo, instead of the current fee of US$295/mo. Just FYI... -- Smoov

Last I knew, Grandfathered status does not survive resale, unless LL changed this... -- Smoov

being able to set the cycle in # of minutes would be great for some things... (convert hours to minutes also) Since computers tend to keep track of time/date, as a floating-point number, # of seconds since (insert reference date which I don't remember at the moment), converting it into the day/night cycle is pretty easy. Say for example, the computer's clock is 57726100934.2167 at that moment, and say, for further example, you have your sim set up with a space station in orbit of the moon, with a big megaprim sphere set to rotate with a moonscape, which will also move around the station to simulate the station tumbling slowly in orbit. Keep the sphere in close proximity to the station, so it rezzes looking out of the viewports, and looks big, like a planet beneath/above/alongside you. You figure out how long it takes for the moon you're in orbit of, to make a full 360-degree path around the station. This is your 'day' for the station. For example, lets just call it 47 minutes to orbit the moon. Set your windlight day/night accordingly to simulate being in space with a full-time starfield. Then set the day-length to 47 minutes. To figure out where you are in the 'day', you'd just divide the time by the day. --> 57726100934.2167 / 2820 = 20470248.55823287 Chop off the whole numbers, and your remainder is where in the day you are. 0.55823287 would be just a little bit after 'noon'... noon being 0.5, and midnight being 0.0 In this way, you can use whatever day-cycle you'd like. I have plenty of friends, who only get on for an hour or two at a regular time, and who never get to see the sim at night without it being manually switched to night. Giving the sim a 25-hour day, or a 7-hour day, would give them some variety. Some days they come on, will be daytime, some days nighttime, some days, dawn, some days dusk during their regular time. Combine with latitude and calendar modifications, you could have an Alaskan themed area, with dusk lasting for months. Would have to figure in the sun/moon positions... or maybe support for completely different satellites... say, a planet going around a binary star, or one that has 3 moons orbitting at different heights and sizes... A little bit of work in this area, could open up so many possibilities for us. Do all of this on the sim/estate level of course. -- Smoov edit: forgot to convert 47 minutes into 2820 seconds. Corrected the math.

Sy Beck wrote: What's the point of this, seriously? What next? Men to wear ties, women in trouser suits or long skirts, furries on a leash. --- well, um... I'd be all for the furries on a leash part... ...although, I'm guessing you meant it in a different way... nvm -- Smoov