Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Freya Mokusei]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

(which is the reason why web browsers get that rating – Safari does not as it is under control of the Parental Guide system settings.)

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Ahaha, excellent. The Internet is for porn, ergo web browsers are for porn (except ours).

Good old Apple, showing that it's definitely not ever about protecting anyone - it's about controlling the market and limiting unfriendly innovation. I wish all old prudes could be so transparent!

[Gavin Hird]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

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Gavin Hird wrote:

(which is the reason why web browsers get that rating – Safari does not as it is under control of the Parental Guide system settings.)

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Ahaha, excellent. The Internet is for porn, ergo web browsers are for porn (except ours).

Good old Apple, showing that it's definitely not ever about protecting anyone - it's about controlling the market and limiting unfriendly innovation.

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From an american company's standpoint it is about not getting sued, protect the brand, reputation and share holder value. 

Did you know that 87% of iOS is open source, while 49% of Android is? Thought not ;-)

[Freya Mokusei]

Not sure how that's relevent since we're talking about services/policy, not code. Android's typical policy allows installation of third-party apps without needing to root - how's that look as a percentage?

Google sux just as hard, to be clear. I'm not suggesting SLv2 goes under the banner of either service.

[Gavin Hird]

So you have essentially eliminated every relevant mobile device platform from SLv2.

– Even if Microsoft were relevant with more than 2-3% marketshare in that space, they would suck equally well given they have the same policy. Fortunately they are irrelevant. :-)

[Freya Mokusei]

I haven't done anything. I realise that all I'm saying on this subject is my own opinion (except where I've supported myself with facts). As I said a long while back, I could care less if SLv2 was made available to the mobile market, if the market insists on this outdated paradigm for distribution of content.

I don't know what choices LL will make, it's not and won't ever be my call. I don't know which hoops LL consider worthwhile. I do know that they will continue to support diversity and freedom of identity, regardless of the opinions of old prudes with the same authority as I.

Thanks for playing!

(ETA: I forgot MSFT were even a thing in the mobile market. Wow. But they pretty much insist on use of Marketplace/Outlook.com so ditto.)

[Gavin Hird]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

I do know that they will continue to support diversity and freedom of identity wrapped up in a shiny coating of good old american double standards. 

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FIFY

... at least the old prune got to the see the greek statues without Calvin Klein briefs. Thanks to you too! ;-)

[Perrie Juran]

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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kiramanell wrote:

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 *every* legitimate bank in the world requires that!

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I thought so. Then tell me: How do direct banks (that operate only online) do it in the US? Or don't they exist there? Or do they use a similar system? Why should that not be pratical for porn sites then?

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I can't speak for the U.S. because I'm a Brit, but some years ago I opened an account with ING Direct (a Dutch bank at that time), and i did it by clicking buttons and such from my keyboard. Any child could have done it if s/he'd had the right information. And that's the point. Anyone can open bank accounts and/or visit porn sites in germany if they have the right information. The fact that an adult must prove that s/he's an adult in a post office or wherever to get a number, doesn't prevent children from using that number. It's just like it is elsewhere, where children can get hold of certain information and use it, pretending to be adults.

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Leaving the issue of Identity Theft out of the picture you might find that the rules are more stringent today.  Banks have ready access to many data bases they will cross reference and if things don't line up perfectly it is going to set off alarms.  More than likely, depending on your financial history, when they say, "We may ask," it really means, "We will ask."

Simply put, anti money laundering laws require Banks to make a positive identification.

Recently one of my friends took her teen age son to open his first account and the bank required a gov't issued picture ID.  They had a number of documents you would have thought were sufficient but no picture ID.  So they had to go get one first.

It is also getting harder to fly under the radar here.  In order to file your taxes and claim any child benefits or exemptions you must obtain a Social Security number for your child by the time they are age two. You can not file without it.  So your trail starts at a very early age.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

I do know that they will continue to support diversity and freedom of identity wrapped up in a shiny coating of good old american double standards. 

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FIFY

... at least the old prune got to the see the greek statues without Calvin Klein briefs. Thanks to you too! ;-)

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Funny, I saw them in the states without censorships as well.. What double standards are you referring to?

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

used to criminalise

it shouldn't be made illegal

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It was about preventing minors from having access to porn, not about making it illegal.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Just about every corner store sells adult magazines in the US.

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So that minors who enter the store can see it?

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

And yes, you can find all of those "offensive" things is SL. There are huds that incorporate sickness and all combat huds have death.

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But that did not establish an equally persistent stigma in the public reception, so seperating that  would not be as necessary to get rid of that stigma.

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Vegans dislike meat eating, doesn't make it wrong.

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The motivation of most vegans and a lot of vegeterians is the awful treatment of animals in the meat industry, which is of course wrong.

 

Porn doesn't need to be BDSM to be misogynic. Most porn is not BDSM but still misogynic. (As I said before, you won't see me going into the disgusting details.) I dslike BDSM but never said all BDSM is misogynic.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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WHAT TAINTED IMAGE??? Please show me one news article from within 5 years that is negative about SL due to adult themes.. JUST ONE! You can't, because there aren't any. 

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From September 2013:

"... he stepped away from Second Life two years ago “for a long time — too many crazy people, only sex and lies ..."

Source

 

From a few days ago:

"... a shift in the in-game focus away from lectures and re-created life and toward sex clubs, dancing, and contests. Second life is having a “strange second life ..."

Source

 

[Thomas Galbreus]

German law does not prohibit to use SL, but it prohibits running a service containing porn without rigid age verification from within Germany. German users can get in trouble as soon as they trigger porn content in SL because there is no rigid age verification. More details that answer your questions can be found in this thread.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

German law does not prohibit to use SL, but it prohibits running a service containing porn without rigid age verification from within Germany. German users can get in trouble as soon as they trigger porn content in SL because there is no rigid age verification. More details that answer your questions can be found in this thread.

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Am I, though, correct in thinking that, while it may be the case that "German users can get in trouble as soon as they trigger porn content in SL...", none of the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of German users of SL who have encountered porn content in SL over the years have, in fact, ever got into any trouble with the law about it, or not that you know of, at least?

  Other, perhaps, than the pedophile group who were exposed by German TV some 7 or 8 years ago, which is a bit different, since their activities are illegal anywhere.

 

[Tari Landar]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

German law does not prohibit to use SL, but it prohibits running a service containing porn without rigid age verification from within Germany. German users can get in trouble as soon as they trigger porn content in SL because there is no rigid age verification. More details that answer your questions can be found in this thread.

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Well, no, more details that answer my question can't be found in the thread, that's why I asked for clarification.

So, what you're saying is that the laws in Germany are very strict, more strict than most other places, yet are never enforced? I have yet to see someone in Germany get in trouble for being in an adult area, or "triggering porn content". I can't even find information about it.

If the laws are really that strict, it would stand to reason someone would have gotten into trouble in all of these years German residents have participated in sl. It would also stand to reason that if the laws are really that strict in sl, German authorities would not even allow access to sl at all, because of the fact that the age verification that exists within sl is nearly non-existant. Much in the same way that other governments and authorities have both tried to restrict, and successfully restricted, access to sl for the inhabitants of those aeas.

Maybe I'm being overly dense here, or just overthinking it. Your posts come across as if German law is so strict and so harsh compared to most other areas including the US, and much better off because it prevents people from gaining access to porn/adult content....yet those laws are all for nothing because they are never enforced. What good are laws that are never enforced? I can't imagine they're all that effective, or even good at all, if no one is willing to enforce them.

Interesting topic, regardless.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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WHAT TAINTED IMAGE??? Please show me one news article from within 5 years that is negative about SL due to adult themes.. JUST ONE! You can't, because there aren't any. 

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From September 2013:

"... he stepped away from Second Life two years ago “for a long time — too many crazy people, only sex and lies ..."

Source

 

Let's quote the whole section.. You seem to have a problem with that. You only quote a part of a sentence that makes you look better.

"On my first day in-universe I meet Larki Merlin, a 40-something German Second Lifer who likes to punctuate his conversation with written-word emoticons. “I am all time on big smile,” are his first words to me. His next words are to the point: “You a wife or a men?” Merlin’s asking that for a good reason; he stepped away from

Second Life

two years ago “for a long time — too many crazy people, only sex and lies. 50% of the girls are in rl [real life] boys.”"

Let's see, Larki  starts out asking if the reporter is a RL female.. I wonder why he asks that? For the rest of his quote he seems to have an issue with cross dressers and gender benders.. What an enlightened individual. He sounds like a real charmer.

From a few days ago:

"... a shift in the in-game focus away from lectures and re-created life and toward sex clubs, dancing, and contests. Second life is having a “strange second life ..."

Source

 Wow... You really took the wrong meaning to this one.. She talks about all of the fun things to do and meeting her RL husband in SL.. By the way.. the quote you decieded to use as ammo.. Yeah, that was a quote from the first story you quoted.. The second one was a positive message about SL. 

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If you hate it so much. please leave.

[Thomas Galbreus]

I can only repeat myself, because all I know about it can already be found in this thread.

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Tari Landar wrote:

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Well, no, more details that answer my question can't be found in the thread, that's why I asked for clarification.

So, what you're saying is that the laws in Germany are very strict, more strict than most other places, yet are never enforced? I have yet to see someone in Germany get in trouble for being in an adult area, or "triggering porn content".

You can find in this thread:

 

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Has any German user ever actually been prosecuted under these laws that so concern you?

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I don't know - but I think I read somewhere  that about ten German police officers are present in SL to look for offenses. Ten are not many, so most will be lucky.

These laws don't concern me a lot because I am not into the "adult" content anyway. My concern is that SL could have more people and a better reputation. I stopped telling people about using SL because I don't like the reactions.

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That's all I know about it. I only know for sure what the law says, not to what extent it gets enforced in SL.

 

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Tari Landar wrote:

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If the laws are really that strict, it would stand to reason someone would have gotten into trouble in all of these years German residents have participated in sl.

Perhaps they have, how should we know? You can't always expect media coverage or people who got caught being open about it.

 

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Tari Landar wrote:

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much better off because it prevents people from gaining access to porn/adult content....yet those laws are all for nothing because they are never enforced.

You can also find in this thread:

- German law does not allow the operation of porn sites without rigid age verification from within Germany. That gets enforced.

- Germany does not censor the internet. So yes, minors can access foreign porn sites by lying when pressing that button.

- The law is not for nothing because at least national porn has age verification, it raises awareness concerning the international situation, and it can be an example for other countries.

- Having effective age verification in place also allows the safe operation of direct banks in Germany.

- US law is stupid by having a broad definition of pornography - more strict than in Germany - but letting minors see even the most hideous porn by simply lying when pressing a button.

- The more countries regulate age verification, the easier the global enforcement.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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 Wow... You really took the wrong meaning to this one.. She talks about all of the fun things to do and meeting her RL husband in SL.. By the way.. the quote you decieded to use as ammo.. Yeah, that was a quote from the first story you quoted.. The second one was a positive message about SL. 

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No, mentioning this shift from lectures etc. to sex clubs etc. is not from an older article, the only quote from that is the expression "strange second life". And the reporter is speaking here, she has not met her husband in SL.

[Innula Zenovka]

If there really are 10 German police officers tasked with investigating possible offences committed in SL by people within the German jurisdiction and their collective efforts have yet to result in a single conviction, that suggests someone has a truly strange set of priorities.

How long have these German police officers been engaged in their apparently fruitless investigations?   And would they not be better engaged in investigating the online trade in images of child sexual abuse or something where their expertise might produce some useful results?

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

have yet to result in a single conviction

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How do you know no one has been convicted?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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 Wow... You really took the wrong meaning to this one.. She talks about all of the fun things to do and meeting her RL husband in SL.. By the way.. the quote you decided to use as ammo.. Yeah, that was a quote from the first story you quoted.. The second one was a positive message about SL. 

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No, mentioning this shift from lectures etc. to sex clubs etc. is not from an older article, the only quote from that is the expression "strange second life". And the reporter is speaking here, she has not met her husband in SL.

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The reporter is interviewing a woman named Judy who has nothing but good things to say about SL.. How is that a negative article? BTW, Judy met her RL husband in SL.. Reading comprehension goes a long way.

ETA... when was SL all about lectures? I have been here for 8 years, I don't remember any lectures.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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 Wow... You really took the wrong meaning to this one.. She talks about all of the fun things to do and meeting her RL husband in SL.. By the way.. the quote you decided to use as ammo.. Yeah, that was a quote from the first story you quoted.. The second one was a positive message about SL. 

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No, mentioning this shift from lectures etc. to sex clubs etc. is not from an older article, the only quote from that is the expression "strange second life". And the reporter is speaking here, she has not met her husband in SL.

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The reporter is interviewing a woman named Judy who has nothing but good things to say about SL.. How is that a negative article? BTW, Judy met her RL husband in SL.. Reading comprehension goes a long way.

ETA... when was SL all about lectures? I have been here for 8 years, I don't remember any lectures.

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I attended NPR Science Friday discussions years ago (they've since left because the audience signal-to-noise ratio was horriffic, and Celestiall often invited me to science lectures, though I don't recall who hosted them. I've never been fond of lectures, I prefer to read, but SL lectures are better than RL lectures, because I can paint my nails during them. Though I admit I never tried doing that in RL, so I might be giving RL lectures a bum rap.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

have yet to result in a single conviction

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How do you know no one has been convicted?

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I don't even know that these 10 police officers actually exist, let alone that they've got as far as arresting anyone.   Neither do you.  You think you remember reading about them somewhere, which is hardly conclusive proof of anything much.

Let me rephrase it, though.  

As far as you know, these ten police officers, assuming they actually exist and are still pursuing their enquiries in SL,  have yet to make a single arrest, let alone see anyone convicted as a result of their efforts.  

Is that an accurate statement of the situation, to the best of your knowledge?

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

have yet to result in a single conviction

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How do you know no one has been convicted?

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I don't even know that these 10 police officers actually exist, let alone that they've got as far as arresting anyone.   Neither do you.  You think you remember reading about them somewhere, which is hardly conclusive proof of anything much.

Let me rephrase it, though.  

As far as you know, these ten police officers, assuming they actually exist and are still pursuing their enquiries in SL,  have yet to make a single arrest, let alone see anyone convicted as a result of their efforts.  

Is that an accurate statement of the situation, to the best of your knowledge?

 

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Imagine how many officers are patrolling YouTube and Craigslist.

As often happens, my random wanderings in search of something interesting to add to a conversation brought me to this page from online behavior research firm SimilarWeb...

http://blog.similarweb.com/uk-online-porn-ban-web-traffic-analysis-of-britains-porn-affair/

In which I find...

UK porn consumption above Worldwide average but Germans take the crown

The Worldwide average share of adult traffic is 7.65%, nearly a point below UK (8.50%). Interestingly, Ireland also consumes less adult content than the UK and it’s slightly below the global average with 7.45% share of adult traffic. Stereotypes are bad but Germans take the crown when it comes to porn consumption – 12.47% of their traffic takes place on adult sites.

So, Germans are like Baptists and Cats. You know they're having fun, but you can't catch them at it.

;-).

[Parhelion Palou]

Think about what a police officer would have to do to find someone to arrest in SL. He'd have to observe someone engaged in an activity that's illegal in Germany, get the names of the avatars involved, get a U.S. court order to force Linden Lab to divulge the real life information for those avatars, then see if any of those are German citizens. It sounds like a huge waste of time and money for a very slim chance of success.

 ETA: It would be funny if the hypothetical police officers ended up catching each other. Is voyeurism a crime in Germany?

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

Innula, you know equally well as I if a slave in full regalia walks up to you, or a child avatar is pestering you, or a "mentor" stands there boasting their lifestyle, the search setting can be what it wants as the avatar has no adult setting associated with it. Hence they can shove their message or role play inanyone's face as much as they want without consequences regardless how unwanted or inappropriate for the land, venue, setting or event it is.

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Gavin, quite a few sims in SL have covenants (private sims) where they clearly state things like, "no child avatars" or "no slaves, no bdsm, no gorans, no furries, etc)    This is usually enforced too. 

 

So, the issue here is really up to the land owners.   I also agree with you, in that the people who do "push" their out of the norm lifestyles, avatars, and behavior are a problem.  When out and about in SL, I dress according to the environment.  (Dressy, professional, roleplay, etc)   I loathe seeing obnoxious roleplayers taking their RP into shops, and around SL in general.  I'm sure many do it just to get attention, as the behavior smacks of, "look at me!" childishness. 

 

But, that is a personal, and immaturity issue, not an issue with the different lifestyles and roleplay options.  It's a specific, and small number of people that bahave badly, much like greifers are not representive of the whole.