Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Phil Deakins]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

if German Law prohibits German people from some things in SL, then German people are free to avoid them.

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Well I avoid it, if not alone for that reason. But some people here reported many Germans in SL would rather not be careful about it. You can say it's their fault then if they get in trouble, but

perhaps SL should at least warn them

. (I don't think it makes sense to prosecute these people for minor offenses like just using pose balls. I think the German law is going to far here, but it does, so if those police officers in SL don't find more severe stuff and get bored, who knows.)

Having better age verification can also get the Germans out of trouble and, more importantly,  would protect more minors from being confronted with awful stuff.

A virtual world without porn would eliminate all these problems and even the perhaps biggest problem of SL, that stigma.

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It's entirely up to each German person what they do. It is not LL's responsibility to tell people about their own laws.

Again, it's entirely up German people to stay within their own country's laws. I see no reason for any system that reaches across the world to tell people about their own country's laws. It's up to the people of each country to know its laws and stay within them.

I honestly do not believe that minors are "confronted with awful stuff". If minors see the "awful stuff", it's because they were where they shouldn't be and it's their own choice - intentional. I may be being a bit naive in that respect but that's the way I see it.

What stigma? I'm not aware of any stigma. Most of the RL people who I talk about SL with have never heard of it. Perhaps a few people in the world think of SL as a hive of sex, but the majority of the world's population hasn't heard of SL or, if they have, they were so impressed by what they heard that they promptly forgot about it. So I'm not aware of any stigma.

[Tari Landar]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Well I avoid it, if not alone for that reason. But some people here reported many Germans in SL would rather not be careful about it. You can say it's their fault then if they get in trouble, but perhaps SL should at least warn them. (I don't think it makes sense to prosecute these people for minor offenses like just using pose balls. I think the German law is going to far here, but it does, so if those police officers in SL don't find more severe stuff and get bored, who knows.)

Having better age verification can also get the Germans out of trouble and, more importantly,  would protect more minors from being confronted with awful stuff.

A virtual world without porn would eliminate all these problems and even the perhaps biggest problem of SL, that stigma.

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Why would it be up to LL, or anyone else for that matter, to warn residents of Germany about laws they should already know about?

I don't expect LL to tell me all the laws my nation, or even state, hold me responsible for following. Why would anyone? If the laws are so clear, and so strict, there is no reason for those living in Germany(or anywhere) to not know them, other than sheer ignorance. As far as I know, ignorance of the law, is never an excuse.  I shouldn't need to state it, but for some reason always feel the need here...when I say ignorance, I am using the actual definition of the word.

I personally think most age verification is just a joke, and so very easily bypassed. However, that still doesn't mean I believe most, if any, residents of Germany are actually worried about the law. As it stands, it's an ineffective, or in other words, bad law, because it is not enforced. You keep saying others cannot prove it has never been enforced, but you cannot prove it ever has been. So, I'll stick with...it's not enforced. I hardly believe that police in Germany are actually prowling around in sl keeping an eye on residents of that country, making certain they don't partake in adult activites in sl. If that were actually the case, you'd have proof that the law has been enforced by now, don't you think? Whether or not these folks are going to say "yup, I was busted in sl partaking in adult activites that are illegal in my country"..somewhere, someone, would have said something and it would be a matter on record somewhere too. It's not.

I was truly trying to understand why you think this law is as important as you seem to believe it is, and why you believe it's actually enforced. I just can't seem to understand it though, as nothing you have said has been more than merely your opinion. Of course, everyone has opinions, and I respect and appreciate that fact. But the reality is, there is a massive population of folks from Germany, in sl, a lot of which engage in adult activities that by your definition are very illegal in Germany and will get them in big trouble. I respect folks that don't want to see or partake in things they dislike, we all have those likes and dislikes. What I don't understand is why someone believes an entire virtual world, a global one at that, should be catered around only their likes and dislikes. If one virtual world, space, game, whatever...does not suit your desires...choose not to partake. 

I don't like gor, for instance, though I respect many, many people fully enjoy it. So, rather than assuming the majority of the grid, or worse the entire grid, should revolve around my dislike for something...I avoid places and things I don't like. It's really easy. I wouldn't want to see the next virtual world have absolutely no allowance for folks who enjoy that type of rp, even if it's not my cup of tea. Maybe I'm just a little too stuck on..."your world, your imagination", since that's what initially drew me into sl to begin with...diversity.

[Gavin Hird]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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What stigma? I'm not aware of any stigma. Most of the RL people who I talk about SL with have never heard of it. Perhaps a few people in the world think of SL as a hive of sex, but the majority of the world's population hasn't heard of SL or, if they have, they were so impressed by what they heard that they promptly forgot about it. So I'm not aware of any stigma.

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Where I live there most certainly is a stigma where SecondLife = sex + loosers

[Phil Deakins]

I don't know where you live but I'd bet that, if you went into the town cetre and asked people what they thought of SL, you'd find that most them would not even know that SL exists. Also, I'd be willing to bet that, of those people who know what SL is, a large percentage would not consider its sex content as being a stigma. In other words, I simply don't believe you. Perhaps you've found the stigma amongst the few people you know, but that's not the same thing at all.

[Gavin Hird]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I don't know where you live but I'd bet that, if you went into the town cetre and asked people what they thought of SL, you'd find that most them would not even know that SL exists. Perhaps you've found the stigma amongst the few people you know, but that's not the same thing at all.

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Every time there is something in the press about it, the sex and looser stigma is hung on it. Not so often in the press these days, but still there from time to time. This is also the general impression troughout people you'd ask. – Which is why you hardly find any residents from my country in SL any more. The same can be said of the entire geo region (Nordic countries). 

[Phil Deakins]

I edited my post while you were writing your reply. In it, I said that I don't believe you. You are one person in the Nordic countries, and I don't believe that what you are saying is true for those countries. It may be true for you personally, but you are only one person.

Just for your information, because most people know it, reporters like to put negative slants on things. It's what they do. And with this type negative slant, probably most people, including the reporters themselves, think along the lines of, "I'd like to get into in that". So, imo, the stigma that you claim exists in the Nordic countries doesn't exist at all, except in your mind, and I'm not even sure that it exists there.

ETA: You could always try conducting a survery in your town centre. You'll find that you are mistaken about a stigma. But to do that, you'd need to be open-minded, and ready to accept that any perceived stigma is just your mind. When you show a country that has a puritanical-minded population, then I'll believe it of that country, but not about countries that have normal populations.

[Gavin Hird]

So my counter claim is that you are in total denial of what the real reputation of SecondLife actually is, and you know nothing about the Nordics (let alone whom I meet). :-))

My stigma for SecondLife is associated with the slew of stupidities LL managment have shown over the years, starting with the adult content policy and Zindra. To the extent I now spend much more time in the "competing" world. 

 

[Freya Mokusei]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Just for your information, because most people know it, reporters like to put negative slants on things.

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This. Courting controversy is easy, especially where a service undermines an established social narrative. Second Life (obviously) undermines many concepts that the old prudes used to control the main social narrative. This is true throughout Europe (where history defines many 'traditional' narratives), but especially in any country that prides itself on misplaced nationalism and selective breeding/jingoism.

'On the ground', 'in the field', this stigma doesn't exist. Bob and Sue are sexting, Tom and Gerald are using Grindr to make new friends. One third of new married couples met online, this is set to increase. Online dating is everywhere. Cybering, snapchatting, dickpics, dirty-talking, all here to stay. OKCupid, ChatRoulette, AEBN, Alt.Net, Kink.com, Craigslist, Skype - these aren't small name brands.

Housewives read 50SOG (which is creating spin-off board games, films and re-igniting the sex shop industry) to their elderly parents, sexual subtlety made a grand exit from the world of entertainment long ago. People are doing more and better exploration of their identities and connected relationship models. This is a billion dollar business - where's the 'stigma' in Adult Content?

Anyone perpetuating the idea that sex-positivity isn't a thing, that the Internet is for srs bsns or that user freedom creates niche products is wrong.

[Phil Deakins]

It's good to know that you spend most of your time elsewhere. Perhaps you could spend more of it there

No I don't know the nordic people, but I do know the natural human nature of people in general, including the nordic people, and that nature is for sex. The brain may be taught to tell itself all sorts of things about sex, such as it's only good with one person, and it's bad if it's casual. Stuff like that. But normal human nature says a very different thing. Those reporters you mentioned are no different to the rest of us. They write negative stuff because it sells papers and not because their natures are revulsed by it.

As for me being "in total denial of what the real reputation of SecondLife", I'm not talking about its reputation. I'm only talking about the claimed stigma. They are very different things. There is no good ar bad with reputations. They can be either. But a stigma is always bad, and it's my belief that there is no general stigma attached to SL, even in the nordic countries. (That's thinking shared by the people in general). We only have your word that it exsts, and I simply don't believe you - because I know human nature.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

calling someone a misogynist

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I think I never called you that as a person, but expressed that I find certain behaviour or most pornography misogynic.

And yes, I find having a woman walk around in a slave collar indicates a fragile male ego. If you think that is an insult, report it.

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

and their spouse a person who has mental issues

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You brought up, concerning the cannibalistic examples, that it would be no consent if someone agrees to that because sellf destructive behaviour would indicate mental issues. I expressed in that logic someone who leads a whole life in unilateral submission also does not consent to it because it can be seen as self destructive; later I made clear that of course I think there is consent in such cases, also in misogynic porn, and that I was only applying that logic. Again, if you see an insult here, report it.

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

you are being the one with the fragile ego here. All you have done is try and force your viewpoint on others. You are trying to suppress everyone that doesn't think like you.

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How do you "force" a viewpoint on someone? How do you "supress" someone in a forum? I may come across a bit dominant here and there (distributed equally to all genders, and only if they deserve it), but still. ;-)

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

you don't think women should be allowed to be "submissives"

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No. There is not even a German law against it. They are free to do it. And I am free to express my opinion that it is a bad idea nevertheless.

[Gavin Hird]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

It's good to know that you spend most of your time elsewhere. Perhaps you could spend more of it there

 

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Someone's got to prepare the ground for when the anckle-biters come scrambling as their old world crumble, hehe. 

[Leia36]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I don't know where you live but I'd bet that, if you went into the town cetre and asked people what they thought of SL, you'd find that most them would not even know that SL exists. Perhaps you've found the stigma amongst the few people you know, but that's not the same thing at all.

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Every time there is something in the press about it, the sex and looser stigma is hung on it. Not so often in the press these days, but still there from time to time. This is also the general impression troughout people you'd ask. – Which is why you hardly find any residents from my country in SL any more. The same can be said of the entire geo region (Nordic countries). 

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There is a problem if you start to assume things about countries based on viewpoint that is not totally informed or based on evidence. Your experience on the internet is your own, and it is wrong to make such sweeping statements. In English there is a phrase that goes something like "you protest overmuch" in other words, those that pour scorn on something may in fact be involved in those same activities in secret. Fact is I know quite a few active people from nordic countries and there has never been any reference made about any stigma, some even post from SL direct to their facebook accounts.

[Phil Deakins]

There is currently no competition for SL, and the upcoming competition that is known about will come from LL, so it won't really be competition at all.

[Gavin Hird]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

There is currently no competition for SL, and the upcoming competition that is known about will come from LL, so it won't really be competition at all.

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Yeh, till you realize you'll have to leave your kink behind. ;-)

[Phil Deakins]

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Leia36 wrote:

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I don't know where you live but I'd bet that, if you went into the town cetre and asked people what they thought of SL, you'd find that most them would not even know that SL exists. Perhaps you've found the stigma amongst the few people you know, but that's not the same thing at all.

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Every time there is something in the press about it, the sex and looser stigma is hung on it. Not so often in the press these days, but still there from time to time. This is also the general impression troughout people you'd ask. – Which is why you hardly find any residents from my country in SL any more. The same can be said of the entire geo region (Nordic countries). 

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There is a problem if you start to assume things about countries based on viewpoint that is not totally informed or based on evidence. Your experience on the internet is your own, and it is wrong to make such sweeping statements. In English there is a phrase that goes something like "you protest overmuch" in other words, those that pour scorn on something may in fact be involved in those same activities in secret. Fact is I know quite a few active people from nordic countries and there has never been any reference made about any stigma, some even post from SL direct to their facebook accounts.

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It is "methinks you protest too much"

[Phil Deakins]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

There is currently no competition for SL, and the upcoming competition that is known about will come from LL, so it won't really be competition at all.

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Yeh, till you realize you'll have to leave your kink behind. ;-)

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LOL. I don't have a kink. I don't even do normal sex in SL, and I haven't done for years. I haven't been talking from my own desires. I've been talking from the point of view of common sense and the knowledge of human nature that we all possess.

[Gavin Hird]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

There is currently no competition for SL, and the upcoming competition that is known about will come from LL, so it won't really be competition at all.

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Yeh, till you realize you'll have to leave your kink behind. ;-)

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LOL. I don't have a kink. I don't even do normal sex in SL, and I haven't done for years. I haven't been talking from my own desires. I've been talking from the point of view of common sense and the knowledge of human nature that we all possess.

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There is no common sense on which American legislation on sex and adult are built on. Every European knows that. That is what you are up against. Yup!

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I don't know where you live but I'd bet that, if you went into the town cetre and asked people what they thought of SL, you'd find that most them would not even know that SL exists. Perhaps you've found the stigma amongst the few people you know, but that's not the same thing at all.

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Every time there is something in the press about it, the sex and looser stigma is hung on it. Not so often in the press these days, but still there from time to time. This is also the general impression troughout people you'd ask. – Which is why you hardly find any residents from my country in SL any more. The same can be said of the entire geo region (Nordic countries). 

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Please post a few links to these uber negative news stories. Are they from actual news sites or fly by the night web crap?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

There is currently no competition for SL, and the upcoming competition that is known about will come from LL, so it won't really be competition at all.

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Yeh, till you realize you'll have to leave your kink behind. ;-)

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Except that Ebbe has already said that adult activities will be allowed in the new platform.. Since the CEO has stated they will be allowed, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU STILL ARGUEING ABOUT IT?

[Gavin Hird]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Please post a few links to these uber negative news stories. Are they from actual news sites or fly by the night web crap?

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Guess what? - Gasp, not everything can be linked to. You are talking to someone who lives in an area with the highest density of print news media in the world. They don't put everything on the net in searchable format and certainly not back to 2007 when the stigma was created. After that it has been maintained. 

For the rest I am sure you are as good a googler as I am. As someone who travels the Nordic countries weekly for my job; I pretty much know the sentiment and why virtually nobody from the region are in SecondLife. 

[Phil Deakins]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

There is currently no competition for SL, and the upcoming competition that is known about will come from LL, so it won't really be competition at all.

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Yeh, till you realize you'll have to leave your kink behind. ;-)

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LOL. I don't have a kink. I don't even do normal sex in SL, and I haven't done for years. I haven't been talking from my own desires. I've been talking from the point of view of common sense and the knowledge of human nature that we all possess.

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There is no common sense on which American legislation on sex and adult are built on. Every European knows that. That is what you are up against. Yup!

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I have no idea about U.S. laws on sex, so, since I'm a typical European, and I don't know that, I will say that you are wrong.

Also, I don't know of any significant differences between U.S. law and UK law, except one. If I remember rightly, it was posted in this thread that, in the U.S., depictions of child sex, such as cartoons, drawings, and things like that, are legal. It would include child avatars in sex acts. I'm certain that it's illegal here in the UK. I've no idea about the rest of Europe though. But I've only been talking about adult sex, so it doesn't play a part in what we're discussing now.

[Gavin Hird]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Except that Ebbe has already said that adult activities will be allowed in the new platform.. Since the CEO has stated they will be allowed, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU STILL ARGUEING ABOUT IT?

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He has not said that. He has said that all activities that are permissible under the law that goes on in SecondLife will be permissible in SLv2. 

BUT – and this is the culprit. What is permissible under the law is highly dependent of minimum age of entry to the service. If they go for a 7+ audience, it will be a VERY different reality than what is currently the case. 

[Leia36]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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For the rest I am sure you are as good a googler as I am. As someone who travels the Nordic countries weekly for my job; I pretty much know the sentiment and why virtually nobody from the region are in SecondLife. 

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So you speak on behalf of the entire region when it comes to Second Life, you know every single person's daily activities on the internet? You would need to know these things to back up such a sweeping statement

[Gavin Hird]

I have sufficient knowledge to be able to make a statement of the general sentiment yes. And I am not going to document it for you. ;-)

[Phil Deakins]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Except that Ebbe has already said that adult activities will be allowed in the new platform.. Since the CEO has stated they will be allowed, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU STILL ARGUEING ABOUT IT?

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He has not said that. He has said that all activities that are permissible under the law that goes on in SecondLife will be permissible in SLv2. 

BUT – and this is the culprit. What is permissible under the law is highly dependent of minimum age of entry to the service. If they go for a 7+ audience, it will be a VERY different reality than what is currently the case. 

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There you go then. The current adult activities are permissible under the law, so, assuming that the U.S. laws don't change in the meantime, they will be permitted in SL2. What's to argue about?

Who said anything about a 7+ audience? That's just a figment of someone's imagination.