Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Perrie Juran]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

Nope. IP address is

not sufficient

.

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In Germany the police is

authorized

to use it.

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English Translation:

 

(1) Any person who provides telecommunications services or business is involved because the allowed pursuant to § § accordance with paragraph 2 95 and 111 use information in accordance with this provision for the fulfillment of obligations to provide information in relation to the points raised in paragraph 3. This also applies to data by means of which is protected access to terminals or on storage devices that are used in these devices or spatially separated therefrom. The information to be included in a data may also be determined on the basis of an assigned at any given time Internet protocol address; this traffic data may also be evaluated automatically. For the exchange of information pursuant to sentence 3 all corporate data sources are considered.

(2) The information may only be granted to the extent that referred to in paragraph 3 to this in writing in the individual case for the purpose of prosecution of criminal offenses or administrative offenses, to prevent threats to the security or public order or for the discharge of statutory duties in paragraph 3, section 3 bodies with a statutory provision requires that allows her a collection of withdrawn in paragraph 1 relating data; other public and private bodies may not be retransmitted data referred to in paragraph 1. In exigent circumstances, the information may also be granted if the request is made in another form. In this case the request is subsequently confirmed in writing immediately. Responsibility for the admissibility of the request for support referred to in paragraph 3 places.

(3) are bodies within the meaning of paragraph 1

	1	the authorities responsible for prosecution of criminal offenses or administrative offenses authorities;
	2	the authorities responsible for the prevention of threats to public safety or regulatory authorities;
	3	the constitutional protection authorities of the Federation and the Länder, the Military Counterintelligence Service and the Federal Intelligence Service.

(4) The person who business provides telecommunications services or is involved it has to transmit the data to beauskunftenden immediately and completely. About the request for information and the exchange of information, the debtor must safeguard against the person concerned and third parties confidential.

(5) Any person who provides telecommunications services or business is involved it has to take the necessary in his area of ​​responsibility for the provision of information arrangements at his own cost. Who has more than 100 000 customers, has for the receipt of requests for information and for issuing the relevant information a secure electronic interface in accordance with the Technical Directive pursuant to § 110 ready to keep paragraph 3, by the assured against the acknowledgment of the data by unauthorized transfer is ensured. It is appropriate to ensure that any request for information checked by a responsible professional to comply with the formal requirements referred to in paragraph 2 and the further processing of the request is approved after a positive test result.

 

Law enforcement here is also allowed to use it.  But by itself it is meaningless.  It would be sufficient to get a warrant to then search the computers at the location.  Hard evidence is still needed. 

What is real interesting now is that they are training dogs to "sniff out" hidden electronics.

 

http://gizmodo.com/hard-drive-sniffing-police-dogs-are-helping-hunt-down-c-1601198385

[Monalisa Robbiani]

Really, that's why Facebook, Google, Apple, Disney, flickr, Yahoo, Skype etc. are niche products while SL has billions of users, private and corporate. Oh wait, it's the opposite. It's the adult content that cripples SL to a niche for "socially inept weirdos" you better not talk about.

[Leia36]

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

Really, that's whyFacebook,Google, Apple, Disney,flickr, Yahoo,Skype etc. are niche products whileSL has billions of users, private and corporate. Oh wait, it's the opposite. It's the adult content that cripplesSL to a niche for "socially inept weirdos" you better not talk about.

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Um, did you just label us all as "socially inept weirdos"?

[Phil Deakins]

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Coby Foden wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

What? Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world? You're kidding, of course!

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No. This thread is about

porn

and some laws in

Germany

.  :matte-motes-wink:

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Oh. My mistake. Sorry  It's the oldtimer's disease, y'know.

[Phil Deakins]

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Leia36 wrote:

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

Really, that's whyFacebook,Google, Apple, Disney,flickr, Yahoo,Skype etc. are niche products whileSL has billions of users, private and corporate. Oh wait, it's the opposite. It's the adult content that cripplesSL to a niche for "socially inept weirdos" you better not talk about.

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Um, did you just label us all as "socially inept weirdos"?

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I think he meant you lot, but not me

[Leia36]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Leia36 wrote:

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

Really, that'swhyFacebook,Google, Apple, Disney,flickr, Yahoo,Skype etc. are niche productswhileSL has billions of users, private and corporate. Oh wait, it's the opposite. It's the adult content thatcripplesSL to a niche for "socially inept weirdos" you better not talk about.

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Um, did you just label us all as "socially inept weirdos"?

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I think he meant you lot, but not me

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Oh dear me yes, I must remember to put that on my CV.

Good to see you around, Phil.

Hey, I think I'll pop around to a few of the university and medical sims to see the "socially inept weirdos" in their natural habitat.

[Gavin Hird]

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Leia36 wrote:

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Hey, I think I'll pop around to a few of the university and medical sims to see the "socially inept weirdos" in their natural habitat.

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Best place to spot them! 

[kiramanell]

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

Really, that's why Facebook, Google, Apple, Disney, flickr, Yahoo, Skype etc. are niche products while SL has billions of users, private and corporate. Oh wait, it's the opposite. It's the adult content that cripples SL to a niche for "socially inept weirdos" you better not talk about.

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Only a complete idiot would compare Facebook with Second Life. The End.

[Innula Zenovka]

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kiramanell wrote:

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

Really, that's why Facebook, Google, Apple, Disney, flickr, Yahoo, Skype etc. are niche products while SL has billions of users, private and corporate. Oh wait, it's the opposite. It's the adult content that cripples SL to a niche for "socially inept weirdos" you better not talk about.

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Only a complete idiot would compare Facebook with Second Life. The End.

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Or Apple with Skype, come to that.   

Come to think of it, probably far more people use Excel than use SL.   I don't, though, think it would be safe to conclude that SL would be more successful if it had a powerful spreadsheet tool built into the viewer.

[Monalisa Robbiani]

I didn't, that's why I put quotes. It's what the media and the general population thinks about SL.

[Freya Mokusei]

Thanks for the translation work, Perrie. And the excellent background on 'The Famous Case'. Technical concepts clearly not understood by Galby there - authorization != effective capability to prove in court. Just like the idea that a sty full of piggies is lurking somewhere in SL, wasting patrol time/money on 'policing' SL. :matte-motes-big-grin-squint:

Good posts from Celestiall and Innula too. Agree entirely that the inability to understand the realities of Second Life and adult content in general make the counter-position redundant. No non-German business is going to be considering this nonsense as part of their business plan.

[kiramanell]

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

I didn't, that's why I put quotes. It's what the media and the general population thinks about SL.

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For the record, I didn't mean to imply *you* were the 'idiot.' Rather i was referring to that reporter (was it?) that had made the initial comparison. Those ppl tend to experience any social media only vicariously, thru their kids; and then, to them, Facebook and Second Life just all look like variations to the same thing.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Law enforcement here is also allowed to use it.  But by itself it is meaningless.  It would be sufficient to get a warrant to then search the computers at the location.  Hard evidence is still needed.

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If there is a law about it and the police uses it, it won't be considered meaningless. It can be the first step of investigation, with additional measures like interrogations or those you mention leading to convictions.

The problem I see with it is that innocent people might get prosecuted just because the IP of their computer was involved somewhere. So I think this German law, other than age verification for porn, is rather bad. But, again, it exists, like it or not.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

why are you making slurs (hornets) against those who disagree with you?

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"Stir up a hornets' nest" is a common saying in German ("in ein Wespennest stechen") for causing unexpected, often angry perturbance, not so in English?

I used freedom of speech by expressing my opinion on general behaviours and lifestyles - with Drake1 explicitly asking for it. If people get angry becasue they take part in what I criticize, I can't help it.

If someone insulted, it were those who called me "moron", "ass", "troll" etc.

Yes, I tried an Open Sim grid. I have sympathy for Open Sim, and I might investigate further now with the new computer, but at the time it seemed not very lively there, and vehicle scripts were not working very well. I think I like vehicles.

 

[Thomas Galbreus]

Postident is seen as realistically safe by the German courts. Of course nothing can be 100 % safe. Even if the law would require something like a fingerprint scanner, a minor could still break into your house and threaten you with a weapon. You have to draw the line somewhere.

[Phil Deakins]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

"Stir up a hornets' nest" is a common saying in German ("in ein Wespennest stechen") for causing unexpected, often angry perturbance, not so in English? 

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Yes, we use exactly the same expression in English for the same thing.

I haven't been involved in the German law discussion, but I do have a comment, which is that it's entirely up to each individual what sites and systems s/he uses. It is not up to the sites and systems to cater specifically for any nationality. So, if German Law prohibits German people from some things in SL, then German people are free to avoid them. No way should a mutli-national system like SL cater for any specific laws of any specific nation, except it's own, because it is subject to its own nation's laws..

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

I didn't, that's why I put quotes. It's what the media and the general population thinks aboutSL.

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The general population doesn't know SL exists.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

if German Law prohibits German people from some things in SL, then German people are free to avoid them.

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Well I avoid it, if not alone for that reason. But some people here reported many Germans in SL would rather not be careful about it. You can say it's their fault then if they get in trouble, but perhaps SL should at least warn them. (I don't think it makes sense to prosecute these people for minor offenses like just using pose balls. I think the German law is going to far here, but it does, so if those police officers in SL don't find more severe stuff and get bored, who knows.)

Having better age verification can also get the Germans out of trouble and, more importantly,  would protect more minors from being confronted with awful stuff.

A virtual world without porn would eliminate all these problems and even the perhaps biggest problem of SL, that stigma.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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kiramanell wrote:

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Monalisa Robbiani wrote:

Really, that's why Facebook, Google, Apple, Disney, flickr, Yahoo, Skype etc. are niche products while SL has billions of users, private and corporate. Oh wait, it's the opposite. It's the adult content that cripples SL to a niche for "socially inept weirdos" you better not talk about.

---

Only a complete idiot would compare Facebook with Second Life. The End.

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SL has a lot more features than Facebook, but what does Facebook have that SL does not have, other than a lot more users? (Perhaps there is something, but I don't know, I use FB less than I was using SL when my old computer could hardly render it.)

[Freya Mokusei]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

I used freedom of speech by expressing my opinion on general behaviours and lifestyles - with Drake1 explicitly asking for it. If people get angry becasue they take part in what I criticize, I can't help it.

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Posting just a few examples of 'your opinion'. I'll do you the favour of not including personal insinuations and attacks that you've made against Drake1, Celestiall, Dresden and others.

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

• most porn is misogynic
• YouTube as an example. No way it would be so widely used if they allowed porn.
• the resulting reputation right now, which is limiting growth.
• Being voluntarily submissive can also be seen as a form of self destruction
• Any depiction of sex seen by someone is porn
• as you engage your avatar in pornographic activity, you are distributing porn
• sexual acticvity in SL can put a German user in danger of getting prosecuted
• I think I read somewhere  that about ten German police officers are present in SL to look for offenses
• is still a small number compared to 
  World Of Warcraft, Minecraft, YouTube or Facebook
• How about discussing your fine morals and exquisite taste with the "adults" and leavíng this place for the grown ups?
• I don't remember such complaints about SL during the time it was hyped; it seems only when child pornography, prostitution etc. in SL started dominating the media coverage and the decline in user numbers began

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You've provided no evidence for any of the above.

Still can't see why some of this stuff might be considered faulty, incorrect, crazy, trolling, hyperbolic, incendiary or just plain wrong?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

why are you making slurs (hornets) against those who disagree with you?

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"Stir up a hornets' nest" is a common saying in German ("in ein Wespennest stechen") for causing unexpected, often angry perturbance, not so in English?

I used freedom of speech by expressing my opinion on general behaviours and lifestyles - with Drake1 explicitly asking for it. If people get angry becasue they take part in what I criticize, I can't help it.

Explicity asked for it my ass. I asked if you would tell my wife to take off her collar. You went much futher than the question required.

"Thomas Galbreus wrot

e:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Would you tell my wife to remove her silver collar in RL?

I would tell her that she is free to sacrifice her dignity to some fragile male ego that can only survive by supressing a woman, but that it's a bad idea nevertheless

."

If someone isulted, it were those who called me "moron", "ass", "troll" etc.

Yes, I tried an Open Sim grid. I have sympathy for Open Sim, and I might investigate further now with the new computer, but at the time it seemed not very lively there, and vehicle scripts were not working very well. I think I like vehicles.

 

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I see, so calling someone a misogynist and their spouse a person who has mental issues for allowing what you call misogynistic behaviour, even thought you have no idea what that behaviour actually is, and saying my wife is self destructive because she is submissive is freedom of speech and not an insult.. got it..

You do realize that you are being the one with the fragile ego here. All you have done is try and force your viewpoint on others. You are trying to suppress everyone that doesn't think like you. By your own admission you don't think women should be allowed to be "submissives" because its misogynistic. You are perpetuating misogyny by telling a woman what she can and can not do with her own body. You are the thing you hate most. You have ZERO rights to tell anyone what they can do.

[Leia36]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 

I see, so calling someone a misogynist and their spouse a person who has mental issues for allowing what you call misogynistic behaviour, even thought you have no idea what that behaviour actually is, and saying my wife is self destructive because she is submissive is freedom of speech and not an insult.. got it..

You do realize that you are being the one with the fragile ego here. All you have done is try and force your viewpoint on others. You are trying to suppress everyone that doesn't think like you. By your own admission you don't think women should be allowed to be "submissives" because its misogynistic. You are perpetuating misogyny by telling a woman what she can and can not do with her own body. You are the thing you hate most. You have ZERO rights to tell anyone what they can do.

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Well said Drake

[Leia36]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

if German Law prohibits German people from some things in SL, then German people are free to avoid them.

---

Well I avoid it, if not alone for that reason. But some people here reported many Germans in SL would rather not be careful about it. You can say it's their fault then if they get in trouble, but perhaps SL should at least warn them. (I don't think it makes sense to prosecute these people for minor offenses like just using pose balls. I think the German law is going to far here, but it does, so if those police officers in SL don't find more severe stuff and get bored, who knows.)

Having better age verification can also get the Germans out of trouble and, more importantly,  would protect more minors from being confronted with awful stuff.

A virtual world without porn would eliminate all these problems and even the perhaps biggest problem of SL, that stigma.

---

This police in SL angle bothers me, here's why:

- German as a language is not only spoken by residents or citizens of Germany.

- Gaining RL information without consent is against ToS (simplified)

- To gain certain information legally would require intervention from LL surely? and if so...

- LL could stand to become embroiled in multiple cases daily or weekly when they are already short staffed.

 

It does not seem plausible to me that LL would countenance interference at such a low level from non American authority. (I am not American)

A few new people do claim to be RL police "on a mission" or "here to fight for justice in SL" There are even groups who proclaim to be the "SL Police". I wonder if you haven't been deceived.

[Thomas Galbreus]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

You've provided no evidence for any of the above.

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Sometimes I did provide evidence, sometimes it was superfluous to provide it because it was obvious (like WoW etc. having more users), sometimes it were opinions or value judgements which can't have evidence.

 

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

Still can't see why some of this stuff might be considered faulty, incorrect, crazy, trolling, hyperbolic, incendiary or just plain wrong?

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No. But even if you think something is wrong or if you have a different opinion, it is no legitimation for insults.

Some stuff in your list is of course taken out of context, but most  points are sufficiently acceptable summarizations, except for "Any depiction of sex seen by someone is porn"; which I stated a bit more precisely in context of the problems that can arise with that for German users in a more recent post:

 

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

I think any sexual contet in SL is in high risk of being classified as pornographic, but to be precise: According to the German law, not any depiction of sex is pornographic, but depictions that focus on the sexual act itself, that have not a lot of narrative around it, that emphasize genitals etc. (Those genitals I saw popping up on Marketplace were pretty oversized - if that is as frequent as oversized female breasts and male muscles it might be the norm in "adult" SL.)

It might be possible to explain successfully in court that some mild animations are not pornographic according to the definition in he law - but I guess it would be quite uncomfortable to sit in that court chair.

 

According to

this Wikipedia article

the definition of pornography in the US law seems rather broader than in Germany.

I guess US citizens can be more relaxed about it only because the US law seems to have no problem with an age "verification" that consits of simply clicking a button that sais "I am at least 18 years old".

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[Gavin Hird]

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Leia36 wrote:

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It does not seem plausible to me that LL would countenance interference at such a low level from non American authority. (I am not American)

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The reality is that EU is on a fast track to both create and adopt legislation that will force any internet based service provider regardless of location doing business with European consomers to be in compliance with EU legislation when it comes to TOS, privacy protection, warranties and a slew of other measures. 

American companies like Microsoft and Apple who sell tangibles to European consumers have been forced to make substantial changes to their TOS – also on their services like iCloud and iTunes, and Microsoft online services. The pure service providers are next or they will be blocked from the EU market.

This is a reality also LL will face.