Linden Lab is building a NEW virtual world

[Thomas Galbreus]

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kiramanell wrote:

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 *every* legitimate bank in the world requires that!

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I thought so. Then tell me: How do direct banks (that operate only online) do it in the US? Or don't they exist there? Or do they use a similar system? Why should that not be pratical for porn sites then?

[Freya Mokusei]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

A good law is not meaningless only because it can't be effectively enforced. It can still raise awareness and be  a good example that should be followed by other countries...

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Lolno. This is great.

Any law that cannot be enforced is not a good law. If it isn't used to criminalise 'normal', healthy life (as you're suggesting - sex is healthy, consensual BDSM is both normal and without negative consequences to those involved, regardless of your 'opinion' - it shouldn't be made illegal just because one individual is a deluded, sensitive whiner) then it's used to limit the freedom or choice of a marginalised group (e.g. the Poor). This is common throughout the world and history.

Laws that only have selective/limited enforcement are bad enough, but unenforceable laws are a waste of public money, government time and increase governmental 'bloat'. They give power to governments that governments don't want or need.

Ineffective laws would never be a good example to any other country. Countries do not seek to make ineffective laws part of their legal system.

We need better trolls.

[Gavin Hird]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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kiramanell wrote:

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 *every* legitimate bank in the world requires that!

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I thought so. Then tell me: How do direct banks (that operate only online) do it in the US? Or don't they exist there? Or do they use a similar system? Why should that not be pratical for porn sites then?

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Isolated speaking you can ask such questions, the problem you are painting yourself into is that virtually EVERY country in the world has different legislation on how to handle the information that can verify you. 

By LAW, companies outside Germany will have to apply for a license to even ask for the information required to legally verify your age. A license they will never get because the requirement to get the license is that the law in the country holding the license (nad information) at a minimun satisfies the same requirements as the German law. Which they most likely won't as Germany has one of the strictest legislations in the world regarding this. 

A US company like LL could therefore never ask for the documentation unless they registered a subsidiary in Germany to handle it. They'd have to do the same virtually for every country inside the EU. So it is unworkable. Which is why the original age verification process was abandoned.  

[Gavin Hird]

You are kidding yourself when you claim consensual BDSM is both normal and without negative consequences to those involved.

It is not normal in most of the world, and I have seen many examples both RL and online of such relationships that are outright destructive on the submissive part. They can work short term, but long term (if they even last long term), they usually are destructive. 

[Freya Mokusei]

Thanks for your opinion, but it's out of line with reality. Kinky couples have better communication skills, a better love/life balance, and a better separation/compartmentalisation of their facets. Kinky individuals are typically smarter, are more able to speak their mind and have typically undergone more self-development.

Contrary to what some people in this thread seem to believe, there is no constant 'submissive' mindset in submissive individuals. A healthy submissive within a relationship is never submissive in every aspect of their lives, nor even entirely within that relationship. All consensual BDSM is about communication and the sharing of control and power - no-one ever, ever holds all of the cards, active choice and informed consent are written in at the very foundation.

What you consider normal across the world is irrelevent. I could give a damn what a few old prudes think.

[Gavin Hird]

 A limited survey in Holland is not representative for what what is concidered normal in the world. 

For a service that has a global audience, normality (worldwide) is highly relevant for how big an audience the service will attract and retain. If LL has ambitions of growing SLv2 to hundreds of millions, the tainted image created by "fringe" crowds must be shed. 

I am not saying "fringe" audiences does not have a place in virtual worlds, but they cannot be pushed on people like they often do in the current SL without significantly hurting the offering. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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kiramanell wrote:

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 *every* legitimate bank in the world requires that!

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I thought so. Then tell me: How do direct banks (that operate only online) do it in the US? Or don't they exist there? Or do they use a similar system? Why should that not be pratical for porn sites then?

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Can you imagine the chaos that would cause? If everyone that wanted to access a website that had any adult content had to go to the post office and show documentation.. Lord have mercy, no one would ever be able to mail a package.

I have no idea how you set up an online bank account in the US.. personally i want to talk face to face with someone if there is a problem with my money.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

I am not saying "fringe" audiences does not have a place in virtual worlds, but they cannot be pushed on people like they often do in the current SL without significantly hurting the offering. 

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Kinda sounds like you are. No-one in SL is ever forced to deal with BDSM/kinky things. 'Pushing on people' is old prude code for "I don't like seeing it", which again isn't applicable - it's what's allowable - to be clear: We're not talking cultural acceptance, but individual user choice/freedom, there is no organised movement forcing or pushing anything. Reality doesn't have to conform to your limited worldview.

Rest of your post contains old nonsense about stigma and normality: Already addressed this, it's junk. Bring me something new and interesting - and bring statistics. I like statistics, they're fun.

[Gavin Hird]

Pushing on people are "slaves" and BDSM style couples dressed up like freaks with bondage gear permanently attached to them and very visible roaming around almost any region regardless of maturity settings. 

Pushing on people are child avatars that can get very nasty if you don't want to participate in the roleplay they push on you. Those are seen all over the grid at any maturity setting regions.

Pushing on people are the socalled mentors and hosts hanging around infohubs and where new residents go to "introduce" them to all kinds of "lifestyles". 

Pushing on people are searching the Marketplace with only General settings and you very quickly find that virtually any search query returns results that are pushing sex and beyond.

Actually for mainstream the marketplace is a scary mirror of what is going on inside of SecondLife and it contributes to the tainted image. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

I see no reason to hide porn from minors.    Is there anyone in this thread who

didn't

see porn when

they

were a minor?

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I did, and of course I liked some of it - I saw details of a naked woman for the first time in my life - but in hindsight I wish I hadn't seen it then, because it also included things that are typical for porn, that I fortunately could reject because I can't be easily influenced in general, but it made me deeply depressed for quite a while.

 

Apparently whoever you stole those magazines from was into BD/SM, I would guess a family member as you have so much hatred for it. Did finding out someones deep dark secret ruin your childhood? You shouldn't go snooping in daddies bureau.

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

away from stores, away from friends

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You seem to have strange stores and friends around you.

 

Just about every corner store sells adult magazines in the US. 

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

As for separate worlds....that's not a real world then

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It would also be unwise to steer at a virtual world which will be stigmatised as having mainly users that crave desease, death, rainy weather, nose-picking or other aspects of reality that most people find offensive - or at least too private to get associated with in public. So if experience tells such stigmas tend to happen, better seperate it.

 

She means a segregated worlds isn't a true "world". And yes, you can find all of those "offensive" things is SL. There are huds that incorporate sickness and all combat huds have death. Hell, really good RP has death and sickness without a HUD. Personally, I like the rain. 

Disease, death, rain and nose picking all happen in the Real World every day.. Yet people still have children.. Funny how those "stigmas" don't seem to stop people from having sex..

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You keep talking about "things that are typical for porn" meaning misogynistic imagery. To quote one of my favorite movies..

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

mi·sog·y·ny

[mi-soj-uh-nee, mahy-] 

noun

hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.

 

That doesn't mean a woman that enjoys bondage, or any BD/SM activity. A true misogynist will not enjoy BD/SM. Abuse is not part of a healthy BD/SM or any relationship.

 

Just because you see BD/SM as abusive does not make it so. Vegans dislike meat eating, doesn't make it wrong.Gays are not attracted to women, Lesbians aren't attracted to men, 99.9% of all gays and lesbians i know have had sex with a member of the opposite sex and did  not enjoy it. How do you know BD/SM isn't for you if you have never tried it. You don't even know what it really is.

 

How can you say BD/SM is misogynistic if there are female Doms? Open your mind.

[Freya Mokusei]

Sounds like you just dislike people with divergent interests, lol. Damn those Trekkies, furries, whomever else takes part in a subculture fits under your definition for 'pushing on you'.

You don't like certain things. That's okay, but you don't need to make a thing of it, yeah? It doesn't hurt you, learn to deal.

[Phil Deakins]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

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kiramanell wrote:

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 *every* legitimate bank in the world requires that!

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I thought so. Then tell me: How do direct banks (that operate only online) do it in the US? Or don't they exist there? Or do they use a similar system? Why should that not be pratical for porn sites then?

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I can't speak for the U.S. because I'm a Brit, but some years ago I opened an account with ING Direct (a Dutch bank at that time), and i did it by clicking buttons and such from my keyboard. Any child could have done it if s/he'd had the right information. And that's the point. Anyone can open bank accounts and/or visit porn sites in germany if they have the right information. The fact that an adult must prove that s/he's an adult in a post office or wherever to get a number, doesn't prevent children from using that number. It's just like it is elsewhere, where children can get hold of certain information and use it, pretending to be adults.

[Gavin Hird]

Personally I often get a kick out of people with divergent interest, and have provided spaces for them myself in SL for a long time, but that is not the core of the discussion here.

The discussion is SLv2 and what it takes to scale it to the ambition LL has for membership and reach, and in that context the "fringe" needs to take a significant step back and possibly remain at SLv1 or alternatives. 

Without distribution on mobile platforms the ambitions for hundres of millions of users cannot be reached, and distribution on mobile platforms in such numbers in reality means a 7+ audience. That is the reality we need to get to grips with. 

[Freya Mokusei]

Could've fooled me. It's been ten pages now at least; obsessives ranting about how much they hate sexual freedom. Why even bother with that junk 'BDSM isn't healthy' stuff if all you cared about was cowtowing to iTune's whims? My assumption is delicious endorphin release, in which case you're in good company!

But sure, keep taking steps back. It's been fun.

Disagree entirely with the premise that people with divergent uses for virtual worlds weigh any less than any other type of user, but I have no solutions. I don't care about Google/Apple's attempted powergrab on mobile development or getting SLv2 to reach critical mass. Both are empty goals, IMO.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

Pushing on people are "slaves" and BDSM style couples dressed up like freaks with bondage gear permanently attached to them and very visible roaming around almost any region regardless of maturity settings. 

If they are fully clothed then what they are wearing doesn't matter. I like how you insult the "fringe" as you call it. Very adult of you.

Pushing on people are child avatars that can get very nasty if you don't want to participate in the roleplay they push on you. Those are seen all over the grid at any maturity setting regions.

AR them.. and yes it does work. Also, child avs are allowed on the whole grid, unless there are sexual activities nearby. In which case.. AR them.

Pushing on people are the socalled mentors and hosts hanging around infohubs and where new residents go to "introduce" them to all kinds of "lifestyles". 

If they are breaking the rules... AR them. Who goes to infohubs anymore anyways?

Pushing on people are searching the Marketplace with only General settings and you very quickly find that virtually any search query returns results that are pushing sex and beyond.

BullSH**!! I set my preferences to general, sorted by best selling, because as you say it is pushed then it must be selling, and his search.. 6 pages in at 96 per page and zip so far that is even remotely adult.

Actually for mainstream the marketplace is a scary mirror of what is going on inside of SecondLife and it contributes to the tainted image. 

WHAT TAINTED IMAGE??? Please show me one news article from within 5 years that is negative about SL due to adult themes.. JUST ONE!

You can't, because there aren't any. This is the biggest line that sheep follow. "SEX IS RUINING SL!!!"

Think for your damn self for a change.

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[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

Personally I often get a kick out of people with divergent interest, and have provided spaces for them myself in SL for a long time, but that is not the core of the discussion here.

The discussion is SLv2 and what it takes to scale it to the ambition LL has for membership and reach, and in that context the "fringe" needs to take a significant step back and possibly remain at SLv1 or alternatives. 

Without distribution on mobile platforms the ambitions for hundres of millions of users cannot be reached, and distribution on mobile platforms in such numbers in reality means a 7+ audience. That is the reality we need to get to grips with. 

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What makes you think LL is interested in the 7+ crowd? They don't have any money. They want paying people to join the new platform.  not kids. That i can guarantee you. LL wants nothing to do with having to put in place setting to supervise children on their program. Trust me. One slip and there is a class action lawsuit and bye bye LL. Much safer and easier to make it 16 plus... kinda like SL, only better.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

What makes you think LL is interested in the 7+ crowd? They don't have any money.

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Wrong.

Also, Gavin's talking about the ToS of iTunes and Google Play - two services SLv2 would likely be pushed toward if mobile dev was high proirity. Because walled garden. When you operate underneath other services you reduce all freedom - compliance is necessary to live in walled gardens.

It's a mistake to assume you know LL's target market.

[Gavin Hird]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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What makes you think LL is interested in the 7+ crowd? They don't have any money. 

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Their parents have money and they spend billions for this age group in the app stores every month.

The moment you go to 16+ the competition for attention is fierce + at that age they want FREE because their own money is spent RL as they fast become adult (in all aspects of the word.)

[Tari Landar]

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Thomas Galbreus wrote:

No, German users can't be as relaxed becasue using a service like SL hosted elsewhere without age verification conforming to the German law can get them in trouble as pointed out. Protection of minors is of course not effective because of the lax law outside Germany, but that is not the fault of the German law.

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I'm asking this question, honestly, not trying to be a smartass, just trying to understand.

Can you explain to me how the age verification that sl uses conforms to German law, and why more people do not get in trouble for using sl, with such a relaxed age verification process?

As I understand, from what you have posted, since I know little about German laws myself(despite having family there, I am honestly ignorant about most German law)....you are saying that German law is far more strict, in some aspects. 

The sl age verification process is merely a click of a button, with really absolutely no actual verification of anything. It stands to reason that this verification goes against German law. Which also brings about the question of exactly how strict can German law really be, generally speaking, when there is a rather large population of people living in Germany, within sl. 

I do know other countries/areas have either tried to, or actually do, ban services such as sl because they do not conform to the laws within those areas. So, I do understand it is possible for a place to have more strict laws on such things than the US, or other countries, and also that those laws can be and are enforced. I just do not see such a thing existing in German law, without it actually being enforced at all(because clearly it is not being enforced at all, if those living in Germany can, and do, access sl).

 

 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

 A limited survey in Holland is not representative for what what is concidered normal in the world. 

For a service that has a global audience, normality (worldwide) is highly relevant for how big an audience the service will attract and retain. If LL has ambitions of growing SLv2 to hundreds of millions, the tainted image created by "fringe" crowds must be shed. 

I am not saying "fringe" audiences does not have a place in virtual worlds, but they cannot be pushed on people like they often do in the current SL without significantly hurting the offering. 

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In what sense do you say Adult content is "pushed on people" in SL?   People have to set their preferences to be able to see it in search and the marketplace and to visit adult sims, and can always set their preferences so as not to encounter it.   I wouldn't describe that as "pushing" anything on anybody.

Certainly I've far more frequently seen people asking in the "Answers" section here, "How do I get to see Adult content?" than have I seen them asking "How do I stop seeing Adult content?"

 

[Gavin Hird]

Innula, you know equally well as I if a slave in full regalia walks up to you, or a child avatar is pestering you, or a "mentor" stands there boasting their lifestyle, the search setting can be what it wants as the avatar has no adult setting associated with it. Hence they can shove their message or role play in anyone's face as much as they want without consequences regardless how unwanted or inappropriate for the land, venue, setting or event it is.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

What makes you think LL is interested in the 7+ crowd? They don't have any money.

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Wrong

.

Also, Gavin's talking about the ToS of iTunes and Google Play - two services SLv2 would likely be pushed toward if mobile dev was high proirity. Because walled garden. When you operate underneath other services you reduce all freedom - compliance is necessary to live in walled gardens.

It's a mistake to assume you know LL's target market.

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I don't know about iTunes, other than that I see you have to be 17+ to download Google Search or Google Chrome, neither of which I would regard as applications of interest only to a limited audience.  

However, the Lumiya Viewer (Second Life viewer for Android) is available on Google Play, RLV and all, for download by users of all ages. 

[Innula Zenovka]

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Gavin Hird wrote:

Innula, you know equally well as I if a slave in full regalia walks up to you, or a child avatar is pestering you, or a "mentor" stands there boasting their lifestyle, the search setting can be what it wants as the avatar has no adult setting associated with it. Hence they can shove their message or role play in anyone's face as much as they want without consequences regardless how unwanted or inappropriate for the land, venue, setting or event it is.

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For some reason, I very rarely encounter kajirae outside of Gor, let alone outside of Adult sims.   Child avatars have nothing to do with Adult Content, and I'm not sure what you mean about "mentors."   It doesn't sound like the NCI mentors to me.  Who do you have in mind?

Maybe I'm going to the wrong places, but the sort of thing you describe very rarely happens to me when I'm exploring, shopping, clubbing  or sight-seeing outside Adult sims.    Possibly it happens at certain LL-owned "welcome centres" but some of those are snakepits anyway,  and Adult content is by no means the most worrying of their features.  

What you describe was not uncommon on M land before the A category was introduced some years ago, I agree, but not nowadays, at least not in my experience.

[Freya Mokusei]

I don't actually know the policies of the various walled gardens for mobile dev - not my area, those were Galby's and Gavin's comments. A quick DDG search brings up Google Play - Developer Content Policy. No similar link for Apple, but everyone knows what Snapchat's for.

 

• I do know porn is available on both iTunes and Google Play, even in Germany. :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:
• I also know many (many many) German users are perfectly happy having sexytimes in SL and online in general. :matte-motes-big-grin:
• I don't know any international non-banking (not game tokens, obv.) service that would meet the unenforceable 'law' Galby speaks of. :matte-motes-big-grin-squint:
• I'm glad Lumiya is available on Google Play. :matte-motes-inlove:
• I like faces. :matte-motes-nerdy:

[Gavin Hird]

The reality for the iOS App Store is that if you can access adult content with your app, it will be slapt on a 17+ rating (which is the reason why web browsers get that rating – Safari does not as it is under control of the Parental Guide system settings.) 

It is not quite there in Google Play but they adopt fast (meaning moving in the direction of Apple's restrictions.)  On that note LL and Apple lives in the same legislative environment (CA).