Nudity vs child av's

[Suki Hirano]

SL is for 18+ only correct? I believe this is in the ToS?

I always found it weird that child avatars are allowed everywhere, but nudity is only restricted to adult sims. Ok take a step back not even nudity, some people are uncomfortable even around partial nudity, which makes me laugh and also feel sorry for them. In RL it's not allowed because most shops are open to kids, and it's not good for kids to see nudity or partial nudity. In SL, if you bypass the age restriction and you see some nudity then get some nightmares and had your sex life ruined... well tough luck that's your problem. Adults with a weird fetish for dressing up as diaper-wearing babies and speaking in fragmented sentences composed of "wah" and "bah" and uncomfortable when too much stomach or legs is revealed, lol. Personally I'm more freaked out by child avatars than bondage sluts, a 2-feet tall avatar with an ugly distorted adult face (SL face creation restrictions) with webbed feet and hands and the knowledge that probably a 60-yr old is controlling said avatar.

So today I was doing some shopping while dressed up as a faun. As lots of people know fantasy creatures (demons, fauns, mermaids and the like) almost always have a tendency to wear more revealing clothes, mostly because succubus + a frilly dress just doesn't go together. Then some idiot IMed me that she was going to report me (to LL or the store owner I'm not sure) for "being too revealing", because "some children here may be disturbed by my revealing attire". This is like one of the stupidest things I've ever heard, not that LL or the shop owner's gonna do anything obviously, but mostly because someone can be this thick on Christmas morning. It's the same in the video game industry, where it's perfectly fine, and absolutely encouraged (apparently it's what kids like these days) to cut people's heads off then mutilate their bodies and eat the body parts, but it's definitely a big NONONONONO if 1/1000000th of a nipple is shown in some cutscene. People seriously need to get their priorities rearranged.

/rant

[mikka Luik]

To answer the first part, no not 18+ only

 

See the Terms Of Service section 2.2

 

As for the rest.....

[Dilbert Dilweg]

16-17 Allowed on main grid.. Teen Grid was merged with main grid. which gave birth to adult rating/regions

Maybe they saw something more than you were showing on your screen who knows,,,

 

I dont judge anyone for playing child avatars. It may not be for me, nor do I like to be around it. But thats my choice of life... I Won't knock anyone for roll playing as long as it is legally done and harming no one else in doing so.

[Coby Foden]

---

mikka Luik wrote:

To answer the first part, no not 18+ only

See the

Terms Of Service

section 2.2

---

Suki Hirano wrote:

So today I was doing some shopping while dressed up as a faun. As lots of people know fantasy creatures (demons, fauns, mermaids and the like) almost always have a tendency to wear more revealing clothes, mostly because succubus + a frilly dress just doesn't go together. Then some idiot IMed me that she was going to report me (to LL or the store owner I'm not sure) for "being too revealing", because "some children here may be disturbed by my revealing attire".

---

TOS section 2.2 states [bolding and underlining mine]:

"By accepting this Agreement in connection with an Affiliated Account, you represent that in addition to the representations of section 2.1, you are at least 13 years of age and less than 16 years of age, you agree that you will at all times comply with your Sponsoring Organization’s rules for the Teen Estate, and you acknowledge that you are only permitted to access your Sponsoring Organization’s Teen Estate and no other areas of the Service."

So, in view of the TOS it is very unlikely (and against TOS) that any child goes anywhere shopping to be possibly disturbed by any "too" revealing attire.

Maybe that person IMing Suki thinks that a 16 years old (who is permitted to all regions rated as General) is a child who must be protected from a sight of too much bare pixel skin.  Or maybe the person was erroneously thinking that very young children are allowed to roam around all General rated sims?

[Jonathan Sivocci]

Child avies are 16+ people or 18+ on adult sims with small avatars. "tiny avatars. 

 

 

[Dillon Levenque]

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Suki Hirano wrote:

So today I was doing some shopping while dressed up as a faun. As lots of people know fantasy creatures (demons, fauns, mermaids and the like) almost always have a tendency to wear more revealing clothes, mostly because succubus + a frilly dress just doesn't go together. Then some idiot IMed me that she was going to report me (to LL or the store owner I'm not sure) for "being too revealing", because "some children here may be disturbed by my revealing attire". This is like one of the stupidest things I've ever heard, not that LL or the shop owner's gonna do anything obviously, but mostly because someone can be this thick on Christmas morning.

---

 

I have to agree with you: the comment was really stupid. It's quite possible to consider someone 16 years old a child (just as it is quite possible to consider someone 30 years old a child) but it's also possible to consider a 16-year-old an adult. In many countries one would be legally an adult at that age. But that has little to do with the subject. To speak of 'children' being disturbed by revealing clothing in SL is ludicrous.  Your complainer is an idiot.

For some reason, I find I now have an urge to google fauns.

[Jennifer Boyle]

---

Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

 It may not be for me, nor do I like to be around it. 

---

That's how I felt until I met a couple of really cute-looking and cute-acting little girls.  They made me want a little girl avatar.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Anyone under 18 is legally a child in the US.  Hence reporting someone for **bleep** slip on a G sim. If it wasn't a G sim they have no leg to stand on as nudity is permitted on M and A sims.

[solstyse]

I don't think there's enough detail in the original post. what was the land rated? was it G, M, or A? The only place where revealing clothes are not allowed is G. But for full anatomical nudity, you're best off sticking ot A.

In any case, is someone is going to IM someone at all about their level of "revealing" being too much for the sim, then it would only be right to give a chance to comply before reporting. Since M basically covers the "grey area" between G and A, I would say any threat to report a person in the first IM is premature in all areas except G. Since a Faun is usually fur-covered fromt he waiste down, G is the only lace that a faun would even need clothing at all.

The whole "defense of children" thing is actually a bit overblown. Parents usually don't pay any attention to ratings until they see something that offends them. Yes, I'm talking about real life here. There's way too much of parents buying video games for their children that are rated Mature (Which is the sl equivalent of Adult, not moderate) and then acting like the blame belongs to Sony or Microsoft when the PS3 or Xbox game has contents they'd rather their child not see.

As for children in SL. Well, there's not much to really guard against that. It's a checkbox now. No proof is required. this puts the responsibility for what a real life child sees right where every other form of media does... In the parants' hands. I've seen child avatars on adult and moderate lands too. This means that the person who plays them is, or at least claims to be an adult. And to be perfectly honest, I've seen some amazing things from these people. TOS does restrict them in some ways, but a bit of common sense goes a long way. Obviously, around a person who looks underaged, it's best to treat them underaged. That means no nudity, keep violence to a minimum, etc.

In other words, LL does only what it must to protect itself. If you were on G rated land, maybe you were out of line for dressing in a revealing manner. but on any other kind of land, it was the person who threatened you who was out of line.

[Orca Flotta]

So, okay, yesterday I was out shopping  for a new house (didn't find one but that's another story) and rezzed a demo at a rezz station. OOOOPSY, there was someone in  the house that was already rezzed there. Sorry sorry, my bad. But the bioch tumbling out of the old house was like really angry and asked me if I didn't see that there was a house rezzed already Of course I saw it, I'm not that blind. But automatically assuming someone is in that house is a litte far-fetched isn't it?

Okay, nudity, for that's our topic here: I belong to a small group of women who spend each and every Tuesday topless. The whole day, no matter where we go, no matter what we do, no matter if in group or alone. We call it TT. Topless Tuesday. Our RL ages are between 21 and 70+. So back to the house hunting. The woman was obviously pretty butthurt by my derezzing of the showhouse and my apologies weren't obviously not good enough for her. So she asked me ... no, not asked, she demanded in an ordering tone that I get dressed since this was a G-rated sim. I betcha she wouldn't have complained if I were carrying big guns and just coming from zombie shooting or whatever. As long as I'd kept my mammaries under wraps all would've been okay. Tssk tssk, some people.

So I just left her standing there and went to another rezz station and thought to myself ... oh, wait a moment, was she even right? Showing topless is no criminal offence. Not in the western world. Not even in the USA afaik. According to most our constitutions we have gender equality, right? If the boys can go topless so can we! It's only logical. And even the holy TOS doesn't state that it's forbidden.

I go even one further: why in  the hell should any 13, 16, 17 y/o player be more offended by my state of partial nudity than a person of 18+? Did anyone here wait for their 18th bday until they had sex for the first time? I seriously doubt it.

[Melita Magic]

Are you asking whether being topless is something everyone should be OK with or whether it is OK to be a topless female av on G rated SL land? 

The first could be an endless and circular debate. The second answer is "no." Not according to the TOS. solstyce got to the crux of this topic. 

Suki, what was the land rating?

[Orca Flotta]

Are you asking whether being topless is something everyone should be OK with or whether it is OK to be a topless female av on G rated SL land? 

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No, I'm not asking, have you seen a question mark in my post? I think common sense and logic dictates it is OK. Couldn't care less about anyone who feels it isn't. Also I know (I rarely base my opinion on "believe") it's ok to go topless on G rated land. The boys do it, so do we girls. It is not sexual, it is not offending, it is nobody's business. It's almost too easy and not worth to even think about it, and we only have this discussion due to some illogical crazies.

I must admit I never read the store policies of that business, neither the TOS. But I proud myself of having a healthy, rational thinking mind. I'm pretty much uninhibited by religious or political belief systems. I'm neither a feminazi nor a commie, but an ideologist ... by following my own ideology. I don't cheat, I don't steal, I never lie, I always dress like I want.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

Are you asking whether being topless is something everyone should be OK with or whether it is OK to be a topless female av on G rated SL land? 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, I'm not asking, have you seen a question mark in my post? I think common sense and logic dictates it is OK. Couldn't care less about anyone who feels it isn't. Also I know (I rarely base my opinion on "believe") it's ok to go topless on G rated land. The boys do it, so do we girls. It is not sexual, it is not offending, it is nobody's business. It's almost too easy and not worth to even think about it, and we only have this discussion due to some illogical crazies.

I must admit I never read the

store policies of that business, neither the TOS

. But I proud myself of having a healthy, rational thinking mind. I'm pretty much uninhibited by religious or political belief systems. I'm neither a feminazi nor a commie, but an ideologist ... by following my own ideology. I don't cheat, I don't steal, I never lie, I always dress like I want.

---

Seeing as it's not OK according to the TOS that you agreed to and never read, logic never enters into it. Logic would dictate that you read the TOS before agreeing to it and then follow it. You do as you will wherever you are no matter the rules. You agreed to the TOS and then decide you don't have to follow it. Let me let you in on a secret. If i see you topless on G rated land, I will AR you and i truly hope LL bans you.

There are actual RL children (as the US federal laws define child as being anyone under 18) in SL. Would you walk around in a mall topless in RL just because you decided to? If you did that in the US you would be arrested for indecency. Unless you are breastfeeding a child keep them covered. You say its not sexual. Is it then ok for a male virgin to walk around with his junk out? He hasn't used it for sex, so its non sexual.

[Darren Scorpio]

Hello Suki. As a child avatar myself, I have to agree with the other poster here that your complainer is an moron, I could think of other words to call the person but I will probably get banned from the forums as it would be my third warning . Anyhow the thing that pisses me off about most, yes I said most, child avatars and those who like to role play their parents or guardians is that they take the whole thing too damned serious. This is effing SL, live and let live, don't be too damned closed minded. I completely despise the fact that most child avatars (and their pretend parents) is that they don't know when and where the proper time and place to RP is. For example, when I'm shopping and if for some rare reason you and I crossed paths and for some reason had to socialize, I would talk to you OOC as an adult, that's common sense to me. I am only IC if I am on a specific sim or environment and I'm there for the sole purpose of role playing.

EDIT: Also another thing I despise about other child avatars is how offended they get if they hear a swear word. As if they never heard it when they were kids. When I was a kid I'd hear the most swearing in the school yard than in any other place.

 

tl;dr Your complainer is a moron. Eff the whole protect the children bs most child avatars are 30+ rl

[Shelby Silverspar]

I find the endless debate over cartoon nudity in SL pretty funny. I don't see how a cartoon bewb could offend anyone, anyway.  As if someone could make it to 16 and never see a bewb.../me rolls eyes. Better keep those 'kids' out of RL art museums too. And definitely off the the internet. And don't let them see TV. Or movies. Better put a shirt on the dog while we're at it...

 

[Orca Flotta]

Seeing as it's not OK according to the TOS that you agreed to and never read, logic never enters into it. Logic would dictate that you read the TOS before agreeing to it and then follow it.

Wrong, the TOS itself isn't often very logic in itself. Nor is it common sense.

You do as you will wherever you are no matter the rules. You agreed to the TOS and then decide you don't have to follow it.

It's the same in traffic. I consider myelf a very responsible driver but I don't stop at any stop sign just because it is there. If I see the other roads are clear I'll proceed carefully without coming to a full stop. And, yes, I'm speeding too. And I pay the tickets without complaining. Can't teach or fight a sick system.

Let me let you in on a secret. If i see you topless on G rated land, I will AR you and i truly hope LL bans you.

You do as you please and I'll just think how sick you are and will take the suspension without causing any stir.

There are actual RL children (as the US federal laws define child as being anyone under 18) in SL.

I don't know the US laws but in most western societies we make a dstiction between children and adolescent youngsters. Once you are 14 you have freedom of religion and you can be found guilty of certain crimes, you have more responsibility. You can also have sex.

Would you walk around in a mall topless in RL just because you decided to?

Yes, of course. I  wouldn't walk around naked if I didn't decide to. You can't force me to go topless. :smileywink:

If you did that in the US you would be arrested for indecency. Unless you are breastfeeding a child keep them covered.

In most countries you wouldn't be arrested but the management would probably escort you off the premises.

You say its not sexual. Is it then ok for a male virgin to walk around with his junk out? He hasn't used it for sex, so its non sexual.

You got me wrong here. The male reproductive organ is sexual and it would be against RL laws and SL TOS to swing it around in the open. My boobs on the other hand aren't. If any male feels aroused by the sight of them it is, as I stated before, not my problem. Can't care about any psychological misconceptions going on in neanderthal lizard brains.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

.

You got me wrong here. The male reproductive organ is sexual and it would be against RL laws and SL TOS to swing it around in the open. My boobs on the other hand aren't.

---

So are you telling us that having your boobs touched, kissed, fondled, etc, adds no enhancement to your sexual experiences?

[Orca Flotta]

So are you telling us that having your boobs touched, kissed, fondled, etc, adds no enhancement to your sexual experiences?

Of course it adds to the enhancement, when, if and only when done by the right person. So do my earlobes and the hairline at my neck. But that's not the point of this thread or is it? The question is not about the effect on me but of nudity on child avies or the public at large. And me, I just refuse to have my mammaries sexualised by just any perv. Because some sick persons might feel aroused or offended I'm called indecent and am being forced to hide my upper body under a shirt. Ya, I get it, rape isn't rape when the woman was wearing sexy clothes; because she's the offender not the victim. It's her own fault. Or what?

That's inacceptable!

Aren't we all against the veiling of muslim women? Well, veiling my upper body is kinda the same as my face.

 

But fear not, my moralistic friends, for usually I'm dressed rather "decent" (although that term is in dire need of proper definition). You can also define the Topless Tuesday movement as a political statement if you so wish. I for myself just call it a celebration of feminity.

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Orca Flotta wrote:

So are you telling us that having your boobs touched, kissed, fondled, etc, adds no enhancement to your sexual experiences?

Of course it adds to the enhancement, when, if and only when done by the right person. So do my earlobes and the hairline at my neck. But that's not the point of this thread or is it? The question is not about the effect on me but of nudity on child avies or the public at large. And me, I just refuse to have my mammaries sexualised by just any perv. Because some sick persons might feel aroused or offended I'm called indecent and am being forced to hide my upper body under a shirt. Ya, I get it, rape isn't rape when the woman was wearing sexy clothes; because she's the offender not the victim. It's her own fault. Or what?

That's inacceptable!

Aren't we all against the veiling of muslim women? Well, veiling my upper body is kinda the same as my face.

 

But fear not, my moralistic friends, for usually I'm dressed rather "decent" (although that term is in dire need of proper definition). You can also define the Topless Tuesday movement as a political statement if you so wish. I for myself just call it a celebration of feminity.

 

---

I will not apologize for the fact that Evolution, as he/she/it progressed the human male from our Neanderthal state to what we are today, did not choose to remove from us the genetic material that causes us to become aroused by the sight of a female breast.

And while when I was a teenager I may have ejaculated more than I urinated, as I have grown older that has reversed itself so I think as scientists refer to the sexual function of breasts as secondary, so has sex become a secondary function for my male member.

 

eta:grammar

[Drake1 Nightfire]

When you agreed to the TOS of SL you agreed to follow all of it, whether you read it or not.

You might want to actually read it since you can be permanently banned for your actions in SL should they break the TOS.

TOS

It doesn't matter what the laws on adulthood are in your country, according to the US federal law a person is a child until they reach the age of 18.

Using your logic you would feel it is perfectly acceptable for a 40 year old man to have sex with a 14 year old girl, would you not?  Personally i find that sick and reprehensible.

You consider your self a very responsible driver yet you break traffic laws left and right and "I pay the tickets without complaining" ever think the police are telling you something?

Such a rebel.

[Orca Flotta]

When you agreed to the TOS of SL you agreed to follow all of it, whether you read it or not.

Yes, I did. And I follow the TOS as closely as I can, as long as it doesn't conflict with my personal belief system. I don't grief, I pay my tiers, I take all of LL's bull**bleep** policies wihout complaining much. All in all I'm a rolemodel citizen of our little virtual world. And, honest now, I guess I'm on eof the 99% of LL customers who have never ever read the TOS. We're all grown ups here and kinda know how to behave in public. Stop treating me like an outlaw, just because my brain is a bit better educated and has more experience in life and isn't as stuck up as yours.

You might want to actually read it since you can be permanently banned for your actions in SL should they break the TOS.

My actions. Woah, you make it sound so friggin serious. "Take cover everybody, the suspect has boobs!!! And she's gonna use 'em!" Relax man, I'm not some phurkin terrorist.

It doesn't matter what the laws on adulthood are in your country, according to the US federal law a person is a child until they reach the age of 18.

That's why you have 15 year olds on death row?

Using your logic you would feel it is perfectly acceptable for a 40 year old man to have sex with a 14 year old girl, would you not?  Personally i find that sick and reprehensible.

No, that's not my logic. Are you really that thick or misunderstanding me on purpose? And what has you sick example to do with a 14 or 70 y/o woman going topless?

You consider your self a very responsible driver yet you break traffic laws left and right and "I pay the tickets without complaining" ever think the police are telling you something?

Yes, I consider myself a responsible driver. I'm not breaking the law left and right, probably much less than most other drivers on the road. I break the law when I consider it to be bull. And contrary to most others I stand to what I'm doing and I'm doing it with a reason and when I'm getting caught I admit that I broke the law and pay my fine. I didn't understand the sentence with police telling me something. I never spoke to any policeman in my life. Their computer sends out the tickets and you either pay or object to them. I always pay.

Such a rebel.

Are you American? I hear that thing about me being a rebel always from US citizens. Bad misconception on your part. Listen, boy, I'm my own person, I follow my own very strict code in life, and I stick to it. And it doesn't matter what the law says about it. Sometimes I do protest against what some politicians are trying to pull. That doesn't make me a rebel, just a concerned citizen. An out-of-parliament opposition if you so will.

After all your slander and libel and character assasination let's get back to the facts of the thread now, shall we?

And the facts are:

- boobs never hurt anyone

- no kid above the age of, say, 3 or 4 was not exposed to any sexual depiction yet

- instead of insisting on the silly laws please take a step back once in a while and think about how those laws came together and where installed in the first place. In the case of indecency it's mostly based on some biblethumping morale principles which must be fought or at least ignored wherever possible. It's degrading for women and gives wannabe deputies like you some leverage and power over us. As I said before: Inacceptable!

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

In the case of indecency it's mostly based on some biblethumping morale principles which must be fought or at

least ignored wherever possible.

---

 

 

That is your choice. Personally i find it's easier and more enjoyable (and less costly) to follow the laws and rules.

But yes, I am an American, and to be honest when you do what you will,  ignoring what rules you want to, that makes you a rebel by definition.

[Melita Magic]

To the general discussion: It is distressing, to me, whenever name calling enters into a polite discussion. Everyone has opinions, logic, and feelings. (I'm sure others feel the ratio of each and whether those are distributed equitably among humanity is debatable.) Why does name calling have to enter into it? Why does having a different opinion make someone an "idiot," or a "moron," or a "feminazi" or a "moralizer?"

I do not think less of others for having a different opinion. So I suppose I do not understand why others seem to sometimes do so. (That's one thing I apparently find it difficult to have empathy about.)

What we each think of the TOS about land ratings and nudity is one thing, but the TOS is clear on it. So, if someone (ETA: on SL G-rated land) is showing parts a bathing suit would cover on a family beach (and not in a nudist colony open to families in RL) they are in violation of TOS.

It is not clear from the OP whether the person who IMed them was talking about real chlidren or avatar 'children,' as far as I can tell. I am curious if they asked the person themselves.

[solstyse]

Wow, there's a lot going on in this thread. I'll bet I miss something.

1. Breasts never hurt anyone. You're right about that. However, they are a symbol of feminity, which does make them semi-sexual. A neck or a hairline is something that both genders have. If men grew a nice set of mammaries, they'd be bored by them.  Many people consider "private flesh" to be any feature that is specific to one gender or another. Since everybody has a face, the comparison to muslim burkas does not apply.

2. Any complaint of sexism is also pretty moot. G land is kind of rare. Nobody could complain about the topless tuesdays that you participate in on M or A land. Why not just go where it's accepted? That should be easy enough, right? Plus, by your own code of ethics, it's only 1/7 of days that you "must" go topless, which is a demand far more degrading than covering up.  And if you think that being told ot cover a part of the female anatomy that males don't posess is degrading, then I have to wonder if you feel the same about sitting down to pee. Cause I mean, if gender equallity is your whole reason, then I must assume you stand despite how messy that can get.

3. Logic does not alleviate consequences for breaking the law. And I can see your point about breaking it on occasion. The proper term for it is "civil disobedience." and Americans most frequently invoke it in defense of the first amendment. A word of caution though. Pick your battles. Be prepared to deal with the consequences of an act of civil disobedience, and know your defense beforehand. Those who commit such acts successfully usually can cite the reasons why a certain rule or law is immoral, does more harm than good, etc. A classic example from US history is Rosa Parks refusing to move to the back of a bus. She is considered to one of the people who triggered a revolution that makes it now ilegal to discriminate based on skin color. But being considered a hero now didn't make her life any easier after what she did. But you have to ask youself, will being topless in a G rated sim, or rolling through a stopsign, or speeding have anywhere near the revolutiionary effect of Rosa Parks? Honestly, the answer is definitely not.

4. I'll admit right now. Sure, I speed, and I roll through stop signs. But only when there is no police car in sight. Why do I do it? Because I can get away with it. It's not a revolution of any kind. It's not standing up for anything. And I don't do it excessively. My thought is "Townies don't stop me for 5mph over, Stateys won't if it's 10mph." On the rolling stops, it's "There are no cars, so there are no cops."  I have no problem admitting that the presence of law enforcement will make me drive in a fashion that is much more legally responsible.

5. Linden Lab is based in the US, and subject to US law. It is also a voluntary service that we all use voluntarily, making us all subject to the rules they set forth, and them subject to the laws of the USA. So you ARE right about Boobs never hurting a child. But they certainly can hurt a corporation. In the US, where LL resides, female toplessness is considered a form of nudity. In movies, "brief nudity" is an automatic PG13 rating. (Pg13 is not heavily enforced though.) And I have my doubts that your "topless Tuesdays" are what can be considered brief. Any movie that is chock-full of topless women is considered "R (restricted audiences)" Which IS enforced, and requires moviegoers to present ID showing that they are at least 17 years of age. Now, previous to the ratings that I've mentioned are G and PG. G (General Audience) means "There is nothing at all in this film that can be considered in any way contovertial." PG (Parental Guidance suggested) basically means "90 percent of the population will see no problem at all with this, but if you're one of those **bleep**-retentive parents, maybe you should see this first."

Here is the rating for television, copy/pasted from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_content_rating_systems#United_States

The Parental Guidelines system for the United States was first proposed on 19 December 1996 by the United States Congress, the television industry and the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), and went into effect by 1 January 1997 on most major U.S. broadcast and cable networks in response to public concerns of increasingly explicit sexual content, graphic violence and strong profanity in television programs. It was established as a voluntary-participation system, with ratings to be determined by the individually participating broadcast and cable networks.

The guidelines are as follows. Often sub-guidelines will be used to specify the type of content in the program.

• TV-Y: Suitable for all children (particularly those of preschool or kindergarten age, as this rating is commonly seen in early childhood shows)
• TV-Y7: Suitable for children over seven years old. May contain cartoonish slapstick violence, humor considered too ribald or morbid for younger viewers, mild innuendo, and/or themes and stories that would be considered too controversial, scary or incomprehensible for younger audiences.
• TV-G: Suitable for all audiences; contains little to no adult themes, sexual innuendo, graphic violence, or foul language. Some children's programs that have content that teens or adults will enjoy, such as adult humor, will be used as a G rating instead of a Y rating. Also used for shows with inoffensive content (such as cooking shows, religious programming, nature documentaries/pets and animals and reruns of classic television shows, particularly some sitcoms and game shows)
• TV-PG: Parental guidance suggested; may contain infrequent and/or mild language and/or sexual references, mild to moderate violence, and/or suggestive themes and dialogue
• TV-14: Parents strongly cautioned; may be inappropriate for children younger than 14 years of age. Contains moderate to realistic violence (including some blood-letting), moderate sexual references (including censored and/or partial nudity and heavily implied scenes of sexual intercourse), moderate language (including bleeped-out obscenities), and moderate sexual innuendo.
• TV-MA: Mature audiences; not suitable for children. Contains strong language (which may or may not be censored for advertising reasons), explicit (though, in some cases, not pornographic) sexual content, graphic nudity, and/or graphic violence.

The sub-ratings commonly seen with the main ratings are as follows:

• FV: Fantasy violence (only used with the TV-Y7 rating for action-oriented children's shows)
• D: Used with the TV-PG, TV-14 and TV-MA rating to denote the use of dialogue that hints at something sexual, violent, disturbing, or drug-related.
• L: Used with the TV-PG, TV-14, and TV-MA rating to denote instances of crude, offensive language (profanity, vulgar slang, racial and ethnic slurs, etc.)
• S: Used with the TV-PG, TV-14, and TV-MA rating to denote instances of sexual content (including innuendo, intercourse, nudity, references to alternate sexualities [homosexuality, bisexuality, and transsexuality], and references to sexual acts and fetishes)
• V: Used with the TV-PG, TV-14, and TV-MA rating to denote instances of violence, gore, threat, and scenes depicting peril and/or distress.

And here it is for video games, which LL falls in the category of. This one is directly from the Electronic Software Rating Board.(ESRB, which oversees ALL video game software)  http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp As you can see, your "Topless Tuesdays" have no place on a G rated sim when the content is provided by a US corporation.

Rating Categories

**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/ratingsymbol_ec.gif" border="0" alt="esrb ratings symbol for ec games" width="60" height="89" />	EARLY CHILDHOOD Content is intended for young children.
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/deepyellow.gif" border="0" alt="" width="460" height="1" />
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/ratingsymbol_e.gif" border="0" alt="esrb ratings symbol for E-rated games" width="60" height="89" />	EVERYONE Content is generally suitable for all ages. May contain minimal cartoon, fantasy or mild violence and/or infrequent use of mild language.
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/deepyellow.gif" border="0" alt="" width="460" height="1" />
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/ratingsymbol_e10.gif" border="0" alt="esrb ratings symbol for e10 games" width="60" height="89" />	EVERYONE 10+ Content is generally suitable for ages 10 and up. May contain more cartoon, fantasy or mild violence, mild language and/or minimal suggestive themes.
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/deepyellow.gif" border="0" alt="" width="460" height="1" />
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/ratingsymbol_t.gif" border="0" alt="esrb ratings symbol for T-rated games" width="60" height="89" />	TEEN Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language.
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/deepyellow.gif" border="0" alt="" width="460" height="1" />
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/ratingsymbol_m.gif" border="0" alt="esrb ratings symbol for m-rated games" width="60" height="89" />	MATURE Content is generally suitable for ages 17 and up. May contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/deepyellow.gif" border="0" alt="" width="460" height="1" />
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/ratingsymbol_ao.gif" border="0" alt="esrb ratings symbol for AO-rated games" width="60" height="89" />	ADULTS ONLY Content suitable only for adults ages 18 and up. May include prolonged scenes of intense violence, graphic sexual content and/or gambling with real currency.
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/deepyellow.gif" border="0" alt="" width="460" height="1" />
**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://www.esrb.org/images/ratingsymbol_rp.gif" border="0" alt="esrb ratings symbol for rp rating" width="60" height="89" />	RATING PENDING Not yet assigned a final ESRB rating. Appears only in advertising, marketing and promotional materials related to a game that is expected to carry an ESRB rating, and should be replaced by a game's rating once it has been assigned.

[Orca Flotta]

Solstyce, that was the best post in this thread yet.

1. Breasts never hurt anyone. You're right about that. However, they are a symbol of feminity, which does make them semi-sexual. A neck or a hairline is something that both genders have. If men grew a nice set of mammaries, they'd be bored by them.  Many people consider "private flesh" to be any feature that is specific to one gender or another. Since everybody has a face, the comparison to muslim burkas does not apply.

It does apply if you refuse to make a distinction between your face and your breasts. A distinction artificically imposed on us by sinister powerhungry males, long time ago. Men are too  weak to control themselves so they rather cover up the women. It's a very old scheme and it's about time to break free from it.

 

2. Any complaint of sexism is also pretty moot. G land is kind of rare. Nobody could complain about the topless tuesdays that you participate in on M or A land. Why not just go where it's accepted? That should be easy enough, right? Plus, by your own code of ethics, it's only 1/7 of days that you "must" go topless, which is a demand far more degrading than covering up.  And if you think that being told ot cover a part of the female anatomy that males don't posess is degrading, then I have to wonder if you feel the same about sitting down to pee. Cause I mean, if gender equallity is your whole reason, then I must assume you stand despite how messy that can get.

I never look at land ratings, I just went to that particular store to look for houses. As it so happened it was a tuesday and I was topless. I'm not going anywhere to protest something or start a revolution, was just going on at my usual business. Living in SL is restrictive enough as it is, which is a bit weird since LL are located in a country that's all about freedom.

Further I don't have to be topless, I'm doing so on my own free will. For me it comes quite natural, quasi second nature. I didn't even think about it. I have to admit here, that I spent the most part of my youth at a nudist beach and campground. My parents took me camping for the first time when I was like 2 months old. And then every weekend in summer until I stopped when I was roundabout 25 or so. I did everything in the nude, beach bumming, surfing, sailing, playing badminton, beach volleyball, you name it. So maybe I'm immune to the human flesh by now. Dunno. Meh.

Sitting down to pee is the most logical way to do it, why is that degrading? BTW I do it standing up as well, if circumstances don't allow to sit.

And no, gender equality isn't my whole reason. To be quite frank, as I said I'm no rebel, no feminazi, no commie or anything. I'm just a girl doing what is right. Very sorry that you guys didn't catch the bad bad witch here.

 

 

3. Logic does not alleviate consequences for breaking the law. And I can see your point about breaking it on occasion. The proper term for it is "civil disobedience." and Americans most frequently invoke it in defense of the first amendment. A word of caution though. Pick your battles. Be prepared to deal with the consequences of an act of civil disobedience, and know your defense beforehand. Those who commit such acts successfully usually can cite the reasons why a certain rule or law is immoral, does more harm than good, etc. A classic example from US history is Rosa Parks refusing to move to the back of a bus. She is considered to one of the people who triggered a revolution that makes it now ilegal to discriminate based on skin color. But being considered a hero now didn't make her life any easier after what she did. But you have to ask youself, will being topless in a G rated sim, or rolling through a stopsign, or speeding have anywhere near the revolutiionary effect of Rosa Parks? Honestly, the answer is definitely not.

 

Why should I pick my battles. It's not in my nature to worry about consequences. As I said I didn't go topless for political reasons, so why should I prepare a defense? Must I prepare a defense for breathing or for wearing jeans or for not using the hairs of a certain designer or whatever?

And I'm getting angry when you call what I did "commit an act", as I didn't do anything like that. Is nudity in the US really such a weird thing that one must be prepared with all kinds of **bleep** just for going topless? Rosa Parks did what she did knowing she acted against the law, so she had to deal with the consequences. I'm nothing like Rosa Parks, I'm not a revolutuionary nor am I looking for the effect. So I don't have to ask myself anything. Maybe you all should ask yourselves OMG, why do we have a TOS caring about non-topics, why do we have 3 levels of land, why is the subject of such importance for us?

 

4. I'll admit right now. Sure, I speed, and I roll through stop signs. But only when there is no police car in sight. Why do I do it? Because I can get away with it. It's not a revolution of any kind. It's not standing up for anything. And I don't do it excessively. My thought is "Townies don't stop me for 5mph over, Stateys won't if it's 10mph." On the rolling stops, it's "There are no cars, so there are no cops."  I have no problem admitting that the presence of law enforcement will make me drive in a fashion that is much more legally responsible.

Yes, right. It's what I do too. Only that I don't need to think about cops all the time since we have considerably less of those where I am now. I drive as fast as I think it's comfortable and save. My dad, who also is a very law obeying man, had much more stupid car wrecks in his life than I, although his milage is much lower.When I talk about responsible driving I talk about crash-avoiding, aware, unthreatening driving, not about "OMG this is gonna cost me a lot".

And why should it be a revolutionary act? I never said that. It was considered as such by some other not too intelligent forumist. So I'm not gonna defend myself for not doing what someone else said I'm not doing.

As I said before, this thread is a non-topic altogether.

 

5. Linden Lab is based in the US, and subject to US law. It is also a voluntary service that we all use voluntarily, making us all subject to the rules they set forth, and them subject to the laws of the USA. So you ARE right about Boobs never hurting a child. But they certainly can hurt a corporation. In the US, where LL resides, female toplessness is considered a form of nudity. In movies, "brief nudity" is an automatic PG13 rating. (Pg13 is not heavily enforced though.) And I have my doubts that your "topless Tuesdays" are what can be considered brief. Any movie that is chock-full of topless women is considered "R (restricted audiences)" Which IS enforced, and requires moviegoers to present ID showing that they are at least 17 years of age. Now, previous to the ratings that I've mentioned are G and PG. G (General Audience) means "There is nothing at all in this film that can be considered in any way contovertial." PG (Parental Guidance suggested) basically means "90 percent of the population will see no problem at all with this, but if you're one of those **bleep**-retentive parents, maybe you should see this first."

Yes, we have similar crap rules in Germany and in South Africa and I guess in most western countries. Only that in Europe no sane adult person cares about even giving those ratings a look. They were only made to satisfy the controlfreaks at the major churches or something like that.

Why are our Topless Tuesdays not brief? We're not a horde of wild animals stampeding thru your local mall, mostly we're at our private parcels and marinas. On my land I'm often in a state of semi-nudity. And when I need to go out briefly to look at a vendor for houses I do so without putting on a top first. Where's the harm in that, eh? 

Oh, and what  hurt SL the  most was the forced removal of adult content to Zindra, not some semi nude silly brat showing up at an "inappropriate" place.