Sharing logs and linden TOS

[thebitterheart]

Hey everyone im not sure im on the right group here but i had a question regarding sharing logs etc.

 

The situation at the moment is that i co own a roleplay sim and as an admin can we log conversations with others and show it to our fellow admins to resolve issues? Can we state in our sim rules that logs will be shared for admin use only? I understand consent is needed to share logs between people however, those who usually tend to cause trouble would just say 'no you cant use my logs' when they are clearly needed. 

I have been finding the TOS a bit confusing and needed some help regarding this matter. Would apreciate quick replies! =) Thank you.

 

[Marigold Devin]

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thebitterheart wrote:

Hey everyone im not sure im on the right group here but i had a question regarding sharing logs etc.

 

The situation at the moment is that i co own a roleplay sim and as an admin can we log conversations with others and show it to our fellow admins to resolve issues? Can we state in our sim rules that logs will be shared for admin use only? I understand consent is needed to share logs between people however, those who usually tend to cause trouble would just say 'no you cant use my logs' when they are clearly needed. 

I have been finding the TOS a bit confusing and needed some help regarding this matter. Would apreciate quick replies! =) Thank you.

 

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Unofficially, and realistically, many people do break the Terms of Service and share private IMs with others.  It is against Terms of Service, very clearly against Terms of Service, and you do so at your own risk.  Disclosures written on profiles count for absolutely nothing.  LL Terms of Service is SL law.

[thebitterheart]

Though with consent it is allowed right?

[Ceka Cianci]

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thebitterheart wrote:

Hey everyone im not sure im on the right group here but i had a question regarding sharing logs etc.

 

The situation at the moment is that i co own a roleplay sim and as an admin can we log conversations with others and show it to our fellow admins to resolve issues? Can we state in our sim rules that logs will be shared for admin use only? I understand consent is needed to share logs between people however, those who usually tend to cause trouble would just say 'no you cant use my logs' when they are clearly needed. 

I have been finding the TOS a bit confusing and needed some help regarding this matter. Would apreciate quick replies! =) Thank you.

 

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there is nothing stoping anyone from sharing them on yahoo or some out of world place to be safe and sure..the TOS only applies to Second life..not outside of it..

meetup with your admins on yahoo or whatever messenger or even emails  if you wanted..

[Ceka Cianci]

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thebitterheart wrote:

Though with consent it is allowed right?

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yes..but it's unclear if you need consent every time or not hehehe

 

[Ariel Vuissent]

If someone "tends to cause trouble," you should probably ban them. There's nothing that says you can't use general terms - "so-and-so was rude and insulted me when I asked him to change into an appropriate costume and told him where to get free ones." - to describe a situation. You cannot, no matter the situation, share any actual chatlog with anyone but the Lindens. If someone has a question and you don't have the answer, or you can't understand the question, you can ask if you can share the log if someone else to better help them. In that situation, explained properly, most people will agree. But if someone is causing trouble, you should ban them - anywhere from just 24 hours to a permaban, depending on the severity.

[thebitterheart]

*nods* Thank you that has cleared my questions alot more This would also be more regarding RP. For example.. say someone is god modding and the admins werent there to see it, the only way to actually have a background on the god mod is to see the log itself, in which case we do need to make sure this was done sort of thing.. thats where its confusing me a bit too

[Ceka Cianci]

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thebitterheart wrote:

*nods* Thank you that has cleared my questions alot more

This would also be more regarding RP. For example.. say someone is god modding and the admins werent there to see it, the only way to actually have a background on the god mod is to see the log itself, in which case we do need to make sure this was done sort of thing.. thats where its confusing me a bit too

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if you use logs..the best way is to get a copy from all parties..

because logs can and do get edited..

i find that getting  two or more copies from different people tends to show the truth more than one..three is best because you can see where the edits are unless a few have teamed up on someone lol

[Ariel Vuissent]

It's still against the ToS; the Lindens make no allowances for roleplay situations. However, the truth is that you're unlikely to get caught. That doesn't mean you should do it, but if you feel it is truly unavoidable, my best advice would be to make it very clear in the rules notecard of your roleplay sim(s) that chat logs may be shared among admins only in cases of accusations of god-modding, etc. That still doesn't make it acceptable in the eyes of the ToS, but at least roleplayers are forewarned. I also second the idea of trying to get chatlogs from more than one person if possible.

[thebitterheart]

gotcha, just a matter of being carefull i guess and making sure we get consent from people i suppose.. Thank you all for the fast replies though its helped greatly!

[Knowl Paine]

Sharing Logs without Consent is prohibited.

Edit: < Any Resident who shares Private IM's and Chat Logs > would be responsible for edit: < Getting Consent, and > giving clear public notice. A set landing point and a notecard giver could ask for Consent from every Visitor, each time they visit. If they do not agree, they would be asked to leave.

Consent would expire when they leave the Region.

A 3 hour rant requires Consent only one time. Saying something on Wednesday, does Not give Consent for something said on Thursday.

 

[Lucinda Bulloch]

LOL, the linden TOS, sounds like a African dictatorship, lets call it "chief screaming chickens laws".

[ConvergentDynamicsReplican]

Good answers, all.

When in doubt... Don't.

Over.

Out.

[jwenting]

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Lucinda Bulloch wrote:

LOL, the linden TOS, sounds like a African dictatorship, lets call it "chief screaming chickens laws".

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don't like the TOS, don't log in (in fact, cancel your account). It's that simple.

[Charity Colville]

Regardless of the ridiculous disclaimers that many residents try to add to their profile about "sharing everything"...they are still violating SL's TOS if they do so inside Second Life. My suggestion to you would be to create an outside website for your management/leaders to share any content and comments that need to be shared. Obviously, you will always have to keep in mind that all text can be altered. Anything you haven't seen with your own eyes, written to you, and read on your own computer screen can be suspect. However, setting up an outside website to share internal group issues is you best bet to protect yourself.

[JoJo Aurelia]

I'm against it on general principle. I think it's just bad form, and it's a violation of TOS. You can generalize the problem with others without copy and pasting.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

You definitely need specific permission to share a log with anyone inside SL.   Once someone shared an IM log of our conversation that included private information without my specific permission and I AR'd them.  They were suspended, despite the fact they had one of those childish disclaimers in their profile.  I see no difference between that disclaimer and a genneral one on a sim.  You may get away with it, but if the person who was logged AR's everyone, you could be suspended and if it happens enough, be banned.

As others have said, use a way to communicate outside of SL if you have to do this.  And keep in mind that people can and do edit logs to suit themselves, so look at all logs of everyone party to the conversation if they'll share them with you and still use caution as they all could have been edited if there was a hidden agenda to 'get' someone.  I've seen it happen.

[Dilbert Dilweg]

LL Doesnt enforce tos anyway, unless it bennefits them

[MoiselleErin Teardrop]

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Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

LL Doesnt enforce tos anyway, unless it bennefits them

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Well that and the number of silly ARs they probably get each day, They are not gonna have time to deal with anything except the most serious violations or the ones that benefit them.

 

ToS is mostly there to cover their own butts. That way if something went further than SL, they could say, "They agreed to some Tos" or whatever.

 

The Tos for using the web in general is if you don't want it shared possibly, don't post it to begin with. OPnce it is out there, it is out  there.

[Vladi Hazelnut]

You do need permission every time to share a conversation, be it local chat or an IM. Simply getting someone to agree to the fact that you share IMs as part of a policy on your sim does not skirt the issue that its against TOS. As in you can't put a disclaimer or even have them sign an agreement to the effect of " By joining our club or entering our sim or working for us you agree to have your conversations logged and shared with others." Even everyone agreed to this, and you shared the conversations inworld with others without express consent each and every time of all parties involved they could still report you if they found out and you would be held accountable.

Now whether LL would act on it is another matter entirely. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. And the actions they take greatly varies at times. Sometimes you might get a warning, others might get temporary ban, others might get banned from sl all together. And the severity of the infringement isn't always the deciding factor.

The safest way to share conversations is outside of SL since they have no control over this. If you feel its important to share this sort of stuff set up some sort of a group on an outside service like facebook, myspace, a messenger services like skype, msn or yahoo chat. LL has no control over this sort of thing.

There is nothing wrong with logging chat and IMs, its an option in every viewer even the official LL one. What isn't allowed is sharing this info inworld. Along with any personal information that isn't already in the persons profile. Like say the person confided in you that they are gay, where they live or their real life info. If it is not in their profile and you share it you violated the TOS. Members are expected to receive a certain amount of privacy inside of sl and skirting this can get you in trouble.

Again keep in mind this is only in world or on a website ran and controlled by LL. Also keep in mind any website outside of sl may have similar rules and if you break them the people running that website could also ban you. However it would have nothing to do with SL. Like say I run a blog about SL in my private website. LL really has no control over what I say or do as long as I don't break any actual laws. However I can make my own rules that prohibits someone from sharing logs because I feel it is wrong and don't want to go against LL rules. I or any of my moderators can ban you from my website if I see fit.

The best way to do this is have all your staff belong to msn, yahoo or skype and be logged at the same time and you can share the info that way.

Another way you can sort of get around it is to not copy and paste conversations. You can paraphrase was someone said and get the same point across and not break the tos, as long as you don't reveal any personal info. Copy and pasting chat logs really isn't much better than that since they can be altered anyway and you don't know for sure if that was what was really said or not.

An example would be an excerpt from an im might say this: " Vladi hazelnut: Bob Smith was harassing me on the sim and said that if I didn't do what he told me he would grief me.

Vladi hazelnut: Here is what he said to me " Bob Smith: blah blah blah if you don't do what I want I will harass you until you quit sl and I don't care what the owners think".

And you decide to copy this convo into another Im or into a notecard and send it out word for word. To do this you would need permission from both vladi and bob. And you could be getting vladi in trouble as well since he shared part of a convo in his IM to you.

What you could do instead is just put the situation in your own words without using the actual logs. Example:

"We seem to have an issue between Vladi hazelnut and Bob Smith where he said if vladi didn't comply with his requests he would harass him and seems to have no regard for staff or the owner of this sim, what should we do about it?"

This still conveys the conversation, and you could go into more detail if you wanted as long as you didn't copy and paste whole chat lines. And it would not break the TOS since you didn't copy and paste the chat logs word for word.

If someone needs to see the actual conversation for clarification simply arrange to show it to them outside of sl. This is the safest way to do it.

[Knowl Paine]

You are absolutely correct, Residents do not have the authority to create Profile Disclaimers which would supersede the Second Life Terms of Service. I suspect that the only part of the T.O.S. That those Resident read, was the part where it is written, "click here, I Accept"

 

An independent Website site is a viable option, but the action may be outside of the spirit of the agreement as defined in the TOS. Furthermore, as this may facilitate necessary Activities management and oversight; the burden of liability will remain with the Individuals who posses and distribute the data.

 

I believe that dealing directly with the Resident(s) who authored the chat, is the best way to handle it. 

How about this,

Upon Joining a Group, A Resident Group Member is offered Notice and a Request for Consent. The Terms are, that in the event of a dispute, between the Member Resident, and any fellow Group Member; The Member Resident will have One of Two options, (a.) Consent a second time, and to agree to allow the Group Managers to Share Logs for the dispute in question, Or, (b.) to Not share any Logs, and to agree to Leave the Group.

Edit: clarification

[Solar Legion]

Frankly, that entire section of the Terms of Service needs to go - no, I'm not going to argue this with the crowds of people who would rather send in an Abuse Report for having their foolish crap broadcasted to the administrators and moderators of any given group. You do not get to act like a fool or harass people and expect your words to remain in confidence.

You especially do not get to do so when there are state and federal laws which give the right to share these conversations in two distinct manners: Single Party Consent and Dual/Multi Party Consent. Linden Lab needs to adhere to these laws - not atempt to supplant them.

I am, quite frankly, sick and tired of people sending in "Abuse" Reports when they are the ones abusing others and the entire system! They get caught, their abuse sent in to those who handle the groups/parcels/sims and then what do these lowlifes do? They rant and rave and further abuse the system by "reporting" the abused for sharing exactly ehat happened, word for bloody word.

No, paraphrasing it is not a viable alternative nor is using an exterior method of communication. No, canceling one's account is not a viable means of protest - those stating such can stuff it.

If the Lindens don't want you sharing logs within their system, they need to get rid of the ability to make these logs outside of time consuming copy/paste operations.

It's that simple folks - parroting the ToS and saying "but, but, but, It's against the ToS" is nothing more than a cop out and an enabler for those who will abuse others, have it reported to those in charge of the venue and then turn around and "report" that their abusive concersation was shared without their consent.

Do you seriously believe that verbal abusers are going to give consent for their abusive conversations to be shared 

[Knowl Paine]

It's not that LL doesn't want Residents to share logs; they just don't want it done without consent.

I suspect that a majority of Residents accused of a being involved in a dispute, may not want to share their logs, because they are guilty as charged. Exercising Freedom of Association, may be the best course to follow in those cases.

If a Resident were to file numerous and repetitive Support tickets, LL may instruct that person to cease, and desist communications with the Lab. The AR system may work in a similar fashion, but without Notice from LL. Quality Reports.

 

[Solar Legion]

Knowl - if such were the case regarding the Lab and consent for sharing the logs .... They'd follow the existing state and federal laws.

They're trying to supplant these laws in much the same manner as some of the bloggers out there attempt to supplant them (some bloggers will post up the logs simply because they live in one of the many Single Party Consent states/regions .... utterly ignoring the fact that the other participants may live in a Dual/Multi Party Consent state/region) and in so doing make the environment hostile to those who have a legitimate reason to log and distribute a conversation.

They have taken a direction which is opposite that of many of the older ISPs and Messengers out there (the ones which allow creation and management of chat rooms) - part of this may well be due to the fact that Second Life is somewhat of a haven for those who truly do believe they can act out without reprecussion.

That is something else I have grown very tired of over the years. People like that believe that they should never face any reprecussions for their words or actions ... and will scream bloody murder and demand that those who turn them in be persecuted to the fullest extent of the law (or in the case of Second Life, the ToS/CS). It's sickening.

Worse though are those who will outright tell these people that they have concrete evidence in the form of multiple logs! The admins and moderators of these places must know that people exist who will report them and the log source for distribution of these logs the moment they find out. Why would they tell them they have the logs?!

Get the logs, request a copy of the accused's logs, examine them all (including the logs of the accused, if they were provided), then ban (or not) based on that information. Do not ever state that you have multiple logs. This is something that goes back to the older, chat service days for crying out loud! Even though it was allowed then ... You never stated you had logs unless you were certain they'd never guess where they were from! 

[Knowl Paine]

Hello Solar,

The terms of service prohibits sharing logs without Consent. As the methods and types of Consent vary from State to State, and Country to Country; it is each Resident's responsibility to behave lawfully while visiting Second Life, and to maintain compliance with the Local, State, Federal, and or National laws outside of Second Life.

Membership in SL is voluntary.

 

We have to start asking the people who make claims; "How were you Injured"?

Did you lose money, was your property damaged, have you been physically Injured?

A Violation is Not a Crime.

 

A person must practice due diligence in protecting their own privacy. A person cannot leave their love notes on the freeway, and then claim that their privacy was violated if someone reads the notes.

A person must claim that they believed that they had a private setting, and they must claim that they were completely un-aware of any abilities or notices that their activity would be recorded. (Or, explicitly expressed that they did not want to be recorded)

 

The Terms of Service offers clear public notice that activities in SL, can, may, or will be documented. 1st notice.

My suggestion for a Greeter Notecard giver would be a 2nd notice

The Group Charter would be the 3rd notice.

The About Land would be a 4th notice.

A Dispute Resolution Consent request Notecard would be the 5th notice.

Signage on the Land would be a 6th notice.

 

The Plaintiff was given 6 Notices, they chose to ignore repeated attempts to offer clear public notice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Edit: clarify