Brooke Linden Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Hi all,As many of you know, today Mesh was deployed to the entire grid, and an updated Second Life Viewer was released. What does this mean to Merchants? If you are certified to upload mesh content, you should now feel free to list mesh-based items for sale on the Marketplace. (You can mark items as partially or fully mesh when editing a Marketplace listing.)We’re very interested in getting feedback from Merchants who are selling mesh objects and hearing about additional mesh support your customers would like to see on the Marketplace. Based on that information, we will be working with the Mesh Team to determine what improvements we can make.Brooke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia Hermes Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 It would be nice to have an object viewer built into the marketplace, where we can upload collada files and have customers be able to view and roatate the models in 3d on the website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canoro Philipp Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 awesome! mesh is finally here! thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Have any of the concerns voiced in the other thread (link below) been addressed at all? http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Mesh-Support-on-the-Marketplace/td-p/997805 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 As a seller of building components with full perms, I would like to see better protection of my IP rights. A lot of people still think that despite an user license or eula comes with a creation, they can ignore this and use the permissions that SL states. To make more clear that this is not the case, and the buyer is hold to an users agreement, I would like to see a new feature for this kind of items on the marketplace. It can be full perms meshes, but it applies also for full perms sculpties, textures, scripts. All items that help the builder build and must be full perms for this reason. This new feature will contain an 'I agree' button. The object can only be sold to the buyer, after he submits that the has read the terms of use and agrees on them. It will both make more clear for the buyer what his rights are; what can and cannot be done with the object, and it will give more protection to the IPright holder because there is an agreement about the use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Madeliefste Oh wrote: As a seller of building components with full perms, I would like to see better protection of my IP rights. A lot of people still think that despite an user license or eula comes with a creation, they can ignore this and use the permissions that SL states. To make more clear that this is not the case, and the buyer is hold to an users agreement, I would like to see a new feature for this kind of items on the marketplace. It can be full perms meshes, but it applies also for full perms sculpties, textures, scripts. All items the help the builder build and must be full perms for this reason. This new feature will contain an 'I agree' button. The object can only be sold to the buyer, after het submits that the has read the terms of use and agrees on them. It will both make more clear for the buyer what his rights are; what can and cannot be done with the object, and it will give more protection to the IPright holder because there is an agreement about the use. I cant agree enough with this! The SLM Listing as well as even inworld permissions and rights are antiquated and need to more "in your face" push the Merchant/Creator's IP rights in the face of each buyer as a condition of sale - just as Made says. This may be much more difficult inworld but on SLM this would be a relatively easy (as Dart says ... "a 5 minute change"... of course I am jesting to the amount of time) feature to put into the listings. If the Merchant requests via a checkmark on the listing that the Full Perm item must have a pre-acknowledgement-to-licensing popup show up in front of every customer prior to completely the sale, then this is what the SLM service would do during the checkout process. IF the buyer does not agree to the popup agreement, the purchase is cancelled. Not to hard AND it start educating some of the customers to the importance of understanding, honoring, and protecting the IP rights of the Creator's items that they have been licensed to use. Most of my Sculpty Builder Customers are 100% honest and understand very well that they are only buying a right to USE my sculpty maps on the SL Grid. There are a rare few that believe by buying my sculpty maps, they own them for what ever use they see fit.... even though I include a license notecard in each pack. BUT, with the SLM feature Made suggests, that license agreement is now a precondition of sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylar Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Awesome. Thanx for the heads up Brooke. and Madeliefste, I fully agree with you on that idea. I don't sell full perm items, but have dealt with microstock outside of SL (both as a creator and a customer) and most have a similar set up. Something that many microstock sites have is a list of standard licenses to choose from. This is very convenient for buying licensed work, cause you eventually learn the standard licenses and can just look at the item and which license it uses and know what you can do with it. Perhaps the MP could have a standard set of licenses to choose from. Just a thought to throw out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tara Chester Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Thanks for the info, very nice job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Brooke, every mesh object essentially has 2 sets of prim counts. The mesh dev team knows this as they created the 2 sets of prim counts. So, the marketplace should have a spot for both of these counts. Don't ask me how they should be labeled, as they have labeled these 2 things, essentially, the same thing. This does not make a difference to people who are selling finished mesh products that are not meant to be altered, but it does matter to those meshes that are made to be used in builds or scripts added to them, such as mesh weapons for weapon makers. So, we have the PE, which it the new mesh accounting system. The mesh dev team thinks this is the same as a prim count, yet a mesh also has an actual prim count. This matters alot because, if a customer sees the PE and plans on putting a script inside, they do not know at all what the actual prim count will be. They will buy this mesh thinking that it has a prim cost of say 3, but in reality, the mesh object is comprise of possibly 8 separate meshes. There is no way for the customer to know how many separate meshes are in a mesh build to be able to know what will happen when they add a script to it. No way at all, unless the creator tells them in the description. Even this does not ensure that the customer will read the description. They may just look over at the Prim Count and think this is relevant, which it is not, if they intend to add a script to it after they buy it. If a mesh creator does not understand the script penalty, because they do not deal with scripts, they just make meshes to sell, then they will not know to tell the customer about how many parts the mesh build has. So, you can not put this on the creator to tell them. You should make a field that requires the creator to put the actual amount of separate meshes for any product that includes a mesh item. Why LL chose to confuse our customers, by naming these things so obscurely, I have no idea. An even better question would be, why they chose to put a penalty on mesh for adding a script. Is the need to penalize mesh with scripts so much more important than not confusing every1 that does not make mesh? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arwen Serpente Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Thanks for the update Brooke. Since Mesh is so new to the grid and many many people don't understand the in's and out's of it, please add some kind of Global message regarding Mesh to the MP (maybe call it "Important Information Regarding Shopping for Mesh" as a banner link the same way other global messages have been added on the home page - the same way that the "how to gift" was added long ago, etc.). "Shopping" for Mesh and "Using" it inworld is very different from "Creating" Mesh - most information provided today has more to do with "Creating" Mesh than what an everyday user can do with it. I feel like this is like giving keys to the car to a teenager without first sending them to driving school. While the Merchants who use or sell Mesh will add information regarding their particular product to their individual listing, the Merchants can't be responsible for "global" education - it would never be consistent. For instance, LL needs to provide definitions of terms (PE, weighted, rigged...), what happens when a user tries to modify a Mesh object (stretch, shrink, link, add scripts, wear it, etc), advantages or limitations associated with Mesh, what viewers support it, and so on. Also, shoppers need to know how to differentiate "real" mesh from products that are already called "mesh" (and there are tons) - if a shopper searches for "mesh" they will get everything mixed together and only be able to determine what's real mesh from the listing (and old listings are not updated with the new partial mesh/100% mesh indicator - so if I'm looking at an old listing that calls itself "mesh" - how would I know for sure? very confusing). Mesh dynamics are not the same as sculpties or prims, so shoppers need the education directly from LL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelsea Malibu Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Madeliefste Oh wrote: This new feature will contain an 'I agree' button. The object can only be sold to the buyer, after he submits that the has read the terms of use and agrees on them. It will both make more clear for the buyer what his rights are; what can and cannot be done with the object, and it will give more protection to the IPright holder because there is an agreement about the use. This is exactly what is needed to make the EULA valid and I support you 1000% on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Arwen Serpente wrote: Thanks for the update Brooke. Since Mesh is so new to the grid and many many people don't understand the in's and out's of it, please add some kind of Global message regarding Mesh to the MP (maybe call it "Important Information Regarding Shopping for Mesh" as a banner link the same way other global messages have been added on the home page - the same way that the "how to gift" was added long ago, etc.). "Shopping" for Mesh and "Using" it inworld is very different from "Creating" Mesh - most information provided today has more to do with "Creating" Mesh than what an everyday user can do with it. I feel like this is like giving keys to the car to a teenager without first sending them to driving school. While the Merchants who use or sell Mesh will add information regarding their particular product to their individual listing, the Merchants can't be responsible for "global" education - it would never be consistent. For instance, LL needs to provide definitions of terms (PE, weighted, rigged...), what happens when a user tries to modify a Mesh object (stretch, shrink, link, add scripts, wear it, etc), advantages or limitations associated with Mesh, what viewers support it, and so on. Also, shoppers need to know how to differentiate "real" mesh from products that are already called "mesh" (and there are tons) - if a shopper searches for "mesh" they will get everything mixed together and only be able to determine what's real mesh from the listing (and old listings are not updated with the new partial mesh/100% mesh indicator - so if I'm looking at an old listing that calls itself "mesh" - how would I know for sure? very confusing). Mesh dynamics are not the same as sculpties or prims, so shoppers need the education directly from LL. Totally agree. As much as I am been reading and listening on the side and voicing opinions on Mesh.... I have purposely stayed out of the active Alpha Use and testing of MESH in SL. So I honestly do not even have a clue how one would go about buying and using a mesh in SL. Where are the instructions for noobs on how do u buy and use a mesh? And since I know there are more NOOB minded ppl that me on what sculpty vs mesh is (heck I still have to frequently give crash courses to some of my customers that buy my sculpty maps on how to build a sculpty from a map), LL should be providing a REAL BASICS promotion to the NON-MESH GEEKS to explain what mesh is how its used how its bought what are its limits etc. If LL and those that want to see Mesh get mainstream adopted fastert then Q2-2012.... major de-mystification of Mesh needs to be done by LL to the general SL public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I did some quick searching in the JIRA for issues related to EULA's .. and those I found are either marked "Won't Finish" or do not include the "I agree" function. I personally like the requirement to agree to a Merchant-provided EULA before purchase is allowed. I recall having mentioned it during the initial rollout of the Marketplace (but in a very gentle way, so I'm quite sure it passed into history a long time ago.) Madeliefste, I support your idea and ask that you create a JIRA for it then post the link back here so we can all "Watch" (and Vote too) for it. When it comes to people that sell components .. parts and items that will be used by others in their own builds .. a "Positive Affirmation EULA" is a much more reliable means of ensuring that the customer reads and accepts any licensing and fair-use terms you require. Another benefit to having the customer agree to the EULA before purchase is that it stops a lot of customer issues that start out with them saying "if i'd known that was required, I wouldn't have spent the money!" Of course once they actually DO make the purchase, they can't just "give it back for a refund" (in most cases) so it really is best to stop the sale before it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Also agree with pre-agreements and pointers to EULA, license, etc. I'm kind of doing a 180 lately, but if they really do want blunt and honest feedback, then this is it for me: In order to convince me to sell an item that I can sell for $25 USD repeatedly elsewhere for 50 cents here, I need to set my own terms, have them respected, have mechanics in place to automatically enforce some basic agreements (for instance distributing something full perm, that changes distribution permissions for the next->next owner. As in full perm for you, NOT for resale at these perms), a way to swiftly remove those from the system and for me personally ... a way to keep that value higher than 50 cents in a stable market. I'll take two out of three, or three out of four ... or something. Content management roadmap is 2 years old. By sometime early next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Thanks all for the support of the idea, this is the jira: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-4085 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Dartagan Shepherd wrote: I need to set my own terms, have them respected, have mechanics in place to automatically enforce some basic agreements (for instance distributing something full perm, that changes distribution permissions for the next->next owner. As in full perm for you, NOT for resale at these perms) That I also a good idea, the possibility to set next owner and second next owner permissions. I support that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 voted, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Unrelated to the Marketplace directly, but it applies. Also need the SL agreements/TOS updated for my own personal comfort zone. That my content, while giving you non exclusive, perpetual rights ONLY applies to the use in the world of Second Life and for the purposes of advertising SL ... ONLY. Won't be uploading anything substantial until that's spelled out in detail. I haven't yet dug up those LL documents lately to see if that's been changed, but suspecting it hasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arwen Serpente Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Voted & watching. Thank you for creating the JIRA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 voted & watched Made. PS... It would be good to put Dart's next to first owner permissions suggestion in there as well or another jira. That is a good and long overdue idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Madeliefste Oh wrote: Thanks all for the support of the idea, this is the jira: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-4085 Voted/Watched. Thank you Madeliefste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 This is a great idea Dart. A method to enforce specific maximum Permissions on an item when the customer transfers the item to someone else. That would absolutely guarantee an end to a big problem for Full Perm sellers that are now forced to write into a Notecard something like "when you include this in your build, you must make sure you set the Permissions to XXX". We all know that people don't read anyway, so having it done automatically AND under control of the Item Creator totally eliminates that loophole/weakness. Please, go make a JIRA for this. I know I'll vote/watch it instantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylar Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I hate to be the one to spoil the party here, as much as I like the idea of setting next owner permissions, I can see two problems with it. One, many full perm items have a license that states you must either set the permission to no copy OR no mod. I use full perm animations in my furniture, which I mostly set to no copy/transfer. Will I know ahead of time if the animations I buy are going to be set the other way around automatically? And think about how this would affect the sales of the animators I buy from. If they don't have animations with "next owner perms" set the way I need them, I simply won't buy from them. The other thing is, I've seen some licenses that allow full perm items to be passed to a single alt, as some people use alts to manage their business (one account for building, the other for handling selling and what not). And then there's group businesses, where items are deeded to a group (and must be full perm to do so), so that everyone gets paid when an item sells. Deeding to a group is considered "next owner" as far as permissions are concerned. So, yeah, I get to be the party pooper here, but these are some things that should be considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Many creators turn out multiple perm versions of the same product. For example, many clothing designers create both Mod/No Copy and No Mod/Copy versions. Some even toss in variations for Transfer and No Tran permissions. With the "Next Owner" permissions being just a simple setting in the Properties box, it would be very simple for a Creator to release versions with specific combinations for Next Owner in the same fashion they do now. If a Creator wants to do something along the lines of your example (copy to Alt but only once) then that's a situation that is not only undetectable by SL (so must be handled by a EULA anyway) and wouldn't be changed in the least by adding Dart's Next Owner feature; the Creator simply doesn't use the Next Owner settings at all and everything works as it does now. However, the customer will need to Agree to the EULA, so at least they'll be better informed what they can and cannot do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylar Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Darrius Gothly wrote: However, the customer will need to Agree to the EULA, so at least they'll be better informed what they can and cannot do. This I agree with 100%. Not just to inform purchasers of what they can and can not do, but to make it easier for them. When I shop for full perm animations, I usually have to hunt the thing down. It could be in their profile, a sign in their shop, a notecard some where. It would also save time if, like I suggested earlier, there are standard licenses. Just like when you download software and it has a notice that the software is licensed under GPL, BSD, MIT, etc; I've already read those licenses and know what they say, I don't have to read them again to know what I can do with the software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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